On Free Will and Destiny

[Ace of Spades]

Freedom is a negative, meaning to "NOT" (the not gives it its negtive form) be constrained.

Freedom is of three types... 1) Intellectual, 2) Physical, 3) Moral

The moral is linked with consciousness.

Interesting; but isn't freedom is also what we perceive? of any of it, intellectual, physical, moral. Does it not go back to square zero if that's nothing but our consciousness, a perception to our realities? So by the end of day; does it matter? the freedom? Because "our realities" are not "the reality". Hence, the destiny comes in to play because that is part of "the reality" "taqdeer" "lohe mahfooz"

 

[H. Dawary]

Interesting; but isn't freedom is also what we perceive? of any of it, intellectual, physical, moral. Does it not go back to square zero if that's nothing but our consciousness, a perception to our realities? So by the end of day; does it matter? the freedom? Because "our realities" are not "the reality". Hence, the destiny comes in to play because that is part of "the reality" "taqdeer" "lohe mahfooz"

Reality is Perception, and we are dependent and bound by it (perception) and our individual knowledge, but both are limited, and so we are constrained. All fresh knowledge comes from perception, all scientific knowledge comes from perception, whatever it is that we may theorise if it does not pass the actual test (perceptible) than its a failure. It is why we can never go wrong if our proofs come from the real world, then just simple theory.

Our consciousness is shaped by our perceptions, as is our understanding, and our reason (which is receptive).

Destiny is our past result in consequent with our present and future results. Take our nature for example, it is first sprung from our perceptions (when we are children), to then our understanding and thoughts, further furnished by our reason, and next conveyed into words, further on its a desire that is sprung into action, and a continuity of that action is habit, that habit if persistently practiced becomes our nature.

It is a beautiful thing really when into put into words, but most take it for it granted and don't understand it.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Reality is Perception, and we are dependent and bound by it (perception) and our individual knowledge, but both are limited, and so we are constrained. All fresh knowledge comes from perception, all scientific knowledge comes from perception, whatever it is that we may theorise if it does not pass the actual test (perceptible) than its a failure. It is why we can never go wrong if our proofs come from the real world, then just simple theory.

"The reality" is not the perception, "our own reality" is shaped by our perception. But that's not "the reality". An example, if i take you to space, your reality will change based on your perception of how things interact with your body, weight, gravity etc. So for you there will be two realities that you got exposed to (very specific to this example), your perception of your body in space, and on earth. A single bacteria in your body, swimming in your blood, the reality of it is too micro, but is that "THE REALITY" would he ever know what humans are, gravity is, what earth is? So we humans, nothing but like microbes in this universe would ever know what's "the reality"

Our consciousness is shaped by our perceptions, as is our understanding, and our reason (which is receptive).

Indeed

Destiny is our past result in consequent with our present and future results. Take our nature for example, it is first sprung from our perceptions (when we are children), to then our understanding and thoughts, further furnished by our reason, and next conveyed into words, further on its a desire that is sprung into action, and a continuity of that action is habit, that habit if persistently practiced becomes our nature.

If destiny is our past result in consequent with our present and future then there is nothing that's pre decided. But is nothing pre decided?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Ve Khairihi Ve Sherrihi Minallahi Tevala....Both Khair and Sher are under the Irade of Allah-u Azimushshan. Only in Khair is HIS Riza...

For an effect to take place, tons of causes are required. And, they’re all intertwined!! It’s a damn complex matrix. Only GOD can solve it with HIS WILL....

Man proposes, GOD disposes....

Folks are responsible for their Niyet, Amel etc. But, they’re no GOD to get the results only in their POV!! For example, the USA had thought that conquering Afganistan would be as easy as conquering the Americas!!! Now, they’ve understood the HAKIKAT!!! This is your Free Will vs DESTINY in action for all the fools of the world, who are destined to burn in the hell forever....

 

[H. Dawary]

"The reality" is not the perception, "our own reality" is shaped by our perception. But that's not "the reality". An example, if i take you to space, your reality will change based on your perception of how things interact with your body, weight, gravity etc. So for you there will be two realities that you got exposed to (very specific to this example), your perception of your body in space, and on earth. A single bacteria in your body, swimming in your blood, the reality of it is too micro, but is that "THE REALITY" would he ever know what humans are, gravity is, what earth is? So we humans, nothing but like microbes in this universe would ever know what's "the reality"



Indeed



If destiny is our past result in consequent with our present and future then there is nothing that's pre decided. But is nothing pre decided?

Sorry I misunderstood, I was going into the epistemological side of it. You got into the Metaphysics of it... From a metaphysical perspective everything is an illusion then, since what is real is to me could be an illusion to you and what is real to you could be an illusion to me, and it is possible that we are all living within our fantasies.

I've tried looking at it from that perspective... But its too deep. And what I mean by this is that it cannot be verified by reality... For example if you were to talk about the "Soul" and I asked you, "show me what this soul is"? You wouldn't be able to do it.

This is where I have given myself to Allah... Because knowledge and reason in and of itself is limited, and trying to find a reason and an explanation to everything will be unfortunately... Inconclusive. Which is why I personally have taken that leap of faith, for the same reason that when Abraham (AS) took that leap of faith when he obeyed God's command to slay his son Ishmael, although he questioned it and grieved over it, he nevertheless took that leap of faith. Once again I say, this is the extent of my knowledge as I can't go any further.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Sorry I misunderstood, I was going into the epistemological side of it. You got into the Metaphysics of it... From a metaphysical perspective everything is an illusion then, since what is real is to me could be an illusion to you and what is real to you could be an illusion to me, and it is possible that we are all living within our fantasies.

I've tried looking at it from that perspective... But its too deep. And what I mean by this is that it cannot be verified by reality... For example if you were to talk about the "Soul" and I asked you, "show me what this soul is"? You wouldn't be able to do it.

This is where I have given myself to Allah... Because knowledge and reason in and of itself is limited, and trying to find a reason and an explanation to everything will be unfortunately... Inconclusive. Which is why I personally have taken that leap of faith, for the same reason that when Abraham (AS) took that leap of faith when he obeyed God's command to slay his son Ishmael, although he questioned it and grieved over it, he nevertheless took that leap of faith. Once again I say, this is the extent of my knowledge as I can't go any further.

Brother mine,

What is Will?

What are/could be the SpecificationLimits of the HumanWill?

And of course, where is the benchmark for such an enterprise?

Mangus

 

[H. Dawary]

Brother mine,

What is Will?

What are/could be the SpecificationLimits of the HumanWill?

And of course, where is the benchmark for such an enterprise?

Mangus

In the hadith of intercession, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “I will be the leader of the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know why that is? Allah will gather together the first and the last in one plain, so that the onlooker will be able to see them and the caller will be able to make them hear. The sun will be brought close to them, And some of the people will say: ‘Do you not see the state you are in? Do you not see what has happened to you. Why do you not look for someone who will intercede for you with your Lord?’ Some of the people will say, ‘[Go to] your father Adam.’ So they will go to him and say, ‘O Adam, you are the father of mankind, Allah created you with His own hand and breathed into you the soul that He had created for you, and commanded the angels to prostrate to you, and He caused you to dwell in Paradise. Intercede for us with your Lord. Do you not see the state we are in? Do you not see what has happened to us?’ [Adam] will say: ‘My Lord is angry today in a way in which He has never been angry before and will never be angry again. He forbade me to approach the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself, myself. Go to someone else, go to Nooh…’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3340) and Muslim (194).

Will according to Schopenhauer is our essence, the kernel of every man. However he described will as "dumb and blind" and its two components are... Self preservation, and propagation of the species (sex) and beyond this human life he described as meaningless, and human will as forever striving from one goal to the next until the moment of satisfaction and once again another fresh new striving comes about.

But Allah said "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." Quran 51:56

So if you take away Allah (God) out of the equation, then we will be no different to the Chinese, and life is then meaningless...

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

In the hadith of intercession, the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “I will be the leader of the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know why that is? Allah will gather together the first and the last in one plain, so that the onlooker will be able to see them and the caller will be able to make them hear. The sun will be brought close to them, And some of the people will say: ‘Do you not see the state you are in? Do you not see what has happened to you. Why do you not look for someone who will intercede for you with your Lord?’ Some of the people will say, ‘[Go to] your father Adam.’ So they will go to him and say, ‘O Adam, you are the father of mankind, Allah created you with His own hand and breathed into you the soul that He had created for you, and commanded the angels to prostrate to you, and He caused you to dwell in Paradise. Intercede for us with your Lord. Do you not see the state we are in? Do you not see what has happened to us?’ [Adam] will say: ‘My Lord is angry today in a way in which He has never been angry before and will never be angry again. He forbade me to approach the tree, but I disobeyed Him. Myself, myself. Go to someone else, go to Nooh…’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3340) and Muslim (194).

Will according to Schopenhauer is our essence, the kernel of every man. However he described will as "dumb and blind" and its two components are... Self preservation, and propagation of the species (sex) and beyond this human life he described as meaningless, and human will as forever striving from one goal to the next until the moment of satisfaction and once again another fresh new striving comes about.

But Allah said "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." Quran 51:56

So if you take away Allah (God) out of the equation, then we will be no different to the Chinese, and life is then meaningless...

The 'Function' of the Divine in HumanCondition is very critical to understand....

Supercharged Rationalism does make things 'practical' and 'efficient'....and nothing wrong with it at all... the same could be achieved by believing in Something Greater...

Morality is one of those Functionalities...don't you think?

Either follow a Commanded Code by God or by the parliment .... people end up following...laws of others...

If you could read AllamaIqbal R.A. he has most elegantly explained the Concept of the Will in his works... some of it is in Farsi... so if you know Our Darri then ...why not give it a try...

Also, please, don't mind if I appear to make things difficult for you... I hope you know that the Intent is Good!

Mangus

 

[H. Dawary]

The 'Function' of the Divine in HumanCondition is very critical to understand....

Supercharged Rationalism does make things 'practical' and 'efficient'....and nothing wrong with it at all... the same could be achieved by believing in Something Greater...

Morality is one of those Functionalities...don't you think?

Either follow a Commanded Code by God or by the parliment .... people end up following...laws of others...

If you could read AllamaIqbal R.A. he has most elegantly explained the Concept of the Will in his works... some of it is in Farsi... so if you know Our Darri then ...why not give it a try...

Also, please, don't mind if I appear to make things difficult for you... I hope you know that the Intent is Good!

Mangus

Any knowledge that brings me closer to the creator is good knowledge, and I feel that you give that kind of knowledge. It is why I always appreciate your posts.

 

[Verve]

Free will is a complicated affair... Do we have it or do we not?

We are given Choices and the free will to pick one at any given junction.

IMO, the answer lies in "consciousness". But then again what is that? Is it something derived by intrinsic constrains of fear, joy, reward, loss? Or just a window to your reality? Or is it more than that. If these constrains are taken away from you, what would be your choice? That's the part where one put an effort in to making choice say between a, b and so on and so forth. But then there are times where you don't make choice and it's done for you unconsciously. Does that count as free will?

they are interlinked, but once you change the parameters, it doesn't matter. You take away the strains, your whole choices will change. If today i tell you that you will be having food, health, security, house with out working for it, will you be making the same choices that you are making today? Your family's health, security if they are guaranteed what would be your choices in life. So does these factors are driving your free will or other way around?

What is your consciousness? that you are present? and you perceive certain things? friends, family, happiness. It is nothing a window given to you to look in to your realities. But if you break free from those conditions. That's where the possibilities of answers start from.

Well said.

Re your question on not making the choice, that itself is making a choice with outcome(s).

Expansion of Consciousness is the outcome of making the choices on paths leading to it.

But Allah said "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." Quran 51:56

The Ultimate Choice!

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@Verve @H. Dawary @Ace of Spades

Lads,

Since, we are discussing...rather trying to understand the SpecificationLimits of Freedom and Will ... it is also imperative that try to decode the Nature of Intent!

The Realm in which both Freedom and Will could/would be excercised....

Perhaps, the Will affects the Material, MetaMaterial and SubMaterial planes.... if so where does the Intent come into play here?

Is it possible that the Inent is the Driver of Freedom and Will to be Free or not?

Mangus

@SIPRA @PakSword @StormBreaker

 

[SIPRA]

@Verve @H. Dawary @Ace of Spades

Lads,

Since, we are discussing...rather trying to understand the SpecificationLimits of Freedom and Will ... it is also imperative that try to decode the Nature of Intent!

The Realm in which both Freedom and Will could/would be excercised....

Perhaps, the Will affects the Material, MetaMaterial and SubMaterial planes.... if so where does the Intent come into play here?

Is it possible that the Inent is the Driver of Freedom and Will to be Free or not?

Mangus

@SIPRA @PakSword @StormBreaker

Paa Jee: Baqaul @Mentee, it is too much of an "Aflaatooni" topic.

I think that:
"Sochi peya, tay banda geya"

 

[Ace of Spades]

Is it possible that the Inent is the Driver of Freedom and Will to be Free or not?

Intent, in urdu would be roughly translated to chahat... reminded me of hadith e qudsi i read when i was a kid,

If i just follow this line of thought then by the looks of it, intent is subjected to Allah's will, we can have a different intent but we will be made tired but won't be able to achieve. Is will a driver of freedom? Idk, again freedom in the sense of our own perception won't be achieved. But may be the real freedom is something else, away from the constrains of our perception.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Intent, in urdu would be roughly translated to chahat... reminded me of hadith e qudsi i read when i was a kid,

Simply beautiful!

Chahat is perhaps the matre of Intent!

Yes, it could be....

Thanks for sharing the piece... sub Us ki Chahat hae... hum be yehan hain ye bhi Us ki Chahat hae...

 

[StormBreaker]

@Verve @H. Dawary @Ace of Spades

Lads,

Since, we are discussing...rather trying to understand the SpecificationLimits of Freedom and Will ... it is also imperative that try to decode the Nature of Intent!

The Realm in which both Freedom and Will could/would be excercised....

Perhaps, the Will affects the Material, MetaMaterial and SubMaterial planes.... if so where does the Intent come into play here?

Is it possible that the Inent is the Driver of Freedom and Will to be Free or not?

Mangus

@SIPRA @PakSword @StormBreaker

What is inent ?