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NYT bashes India-US nuclear deal

Ruag

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Here is an excerpt from the NYT headline article --

Leaders Gather for Nuclear Talks as New Threat Is Seen

Three months ago, American intelligence officials examining satellite photographs of Pakistani nuclear facilities saw the first wisps of steam from the cooling towers of a new nuclear reactor. It was one of three plants being constructed to make fuel for a second generation of nuclear arms.

President Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and the chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, went to the Blair House on Sunday for talks with foreign leaders on nuclear arms control.

The message of those photos was clear: While Pakistan struggles to make sure its weapons and nuclear labs are not vulnerable to attack by Al Qaeda, the country is getting ready to greatly expand its production of weapons-grade fuel.

The Pakistanis insist that they have no choice. A nuclear deal that India signed with the United States during the Bush administration ended a long moratorium on providing India with the fuel and technology for desperately needed nuclear power plants.

Now, as critics of the arrangement point out, the agreement frees up older facilities that India can devote to making its own new generation of weapons, escalating one arms race even as President Obama and President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia sign accords to shrink arsenals built during the cold war.

Leaders Gather for Nuclear Talks as New Threat Is Seen - NYTimes.com

It seems that the authors of the article have lost all sense of reality or are just plain stupid to have such a narrow minded viewpoint.

Two things need to be pointed here --

A) Nowhere in the article did the authors mentioned any source to prove that the Indians have fastened their nuclear weapons production ever since the deal was signed or plans to do so in future.

B) Are these authors so dumb that they cannot figure out that Pakistan is always paranoid of India? Are these authors not aware of the fact that a weaker conventional forces country always relies on nuclear weapons to deter its enemy? The USSR had more nuclear warheads than USA. Why? Because of USA's conventional superiority, USSR found it absolutely necessary to have a larger nuclear warhead stockpile. The same is the case here. To say that Pakistan is building more nuclear warheads only because the Indo-US nuclear deal allows India to have more nuclear weapons-grade material is absolute non-sense.

Certain sections of the American media are so desperate to get Pakistani support in their war against the Afghan Taliban that they have now started to bash India.

Little do these Americans know that while they might succeed in their objective, they are ultimately making a mockery of their perceived intelligence and common-sense.
 
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Came across this article --

Nuclear Arms Race in South Asia: Is the US-India Nuclear Pact Really to Blame?

APRIL 12, 2010
Jeremy Kahn

The New York Times carries a front-page story today that claims the Obama administration’s nuclear security conference currently taking place in Washington is ignoring a looming nuclear arms race in South Asia. The article says that Pakistan has recently fired up a new nuclear reactor that will be used to process high-grade plutonium for a second generation of nuclear weapons. It says this new weapons-production activity, coming at a time when Pakistan seems increasingly unstable and faces an existential threat from homegrown Islamic extremists such as the Pakistani Taliban, raises the danger that nuclear weapons or material will fall into the hands of terrorists.

Fair enough. Where the story goes astray I think is in its contention that Pakistan has been provoked into this activity due to the US-India Civil Nuclear deal. That deal was about allowing India — which has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and which had been prohibited from receiving almost any kind of nuclear technology since it tested a nuclear device in 1974 — access to nuclear fuel and technology to build power plants which the country desperately needs to meet its growing demand for energy. As part of the deal, India’s own nuclear weapons facilities are placed off-limits to international inspection, which was pretty much just locking in the status quo. But, as The Times reporters note, non-proliferation hawks have criticized the deal because these critics claim that the new nuclear power plants will free up India’s older reactors to make more weapons-grade fuel. That, in turn, they say will allow India to build a new generation of nuclear warheads. This, the critics say, is fueling paranoia about falling behind in Islamabad and prompting them to launch their own next generation program.

The Times reports the non-proliferation advocates’ contentions rather uncritically. It makes India somehow look like the bad guy in this equation. But you can’t have an arms race with yourself (although the U.S. certainly tried in the early 1960s with false reports about the “missile gap” with the Soviets.) I think it is just as likely that Pakistan would have launched its second generation warhead program with or without the US-India Civil Nuclear Deal. India has a larger military than Pakistan and it is the midst of a major defense modernization drive. Given this, Islamabad no doubt would have been leaning even more heavily on its nuclear deterrent even without the Indian civil nuclear deal.

The story also fails to mention that the civil nuclear deal does not guarantee India a supply of uranium in the event it tests another nuclear device (as it did not only in 1974, but in 1998 as well). If that happens, then despite this new nuclear deal, India is likely to face sanctions once again. (Which is why some on both the left and right in India opposed the civil nuclear deal and instead wanted India to try to go it alone on nuclear power; they feel the deal basically gives the U.S. too much leverage over India’s nuclear weapons program, essentially preventing it from testing another device without facing serious economic consequences.) Yes, theoretically, the new reactors which companies from Russia, France, the U.S. and Canada are likely to soon be building in India would free up the older Indian reactors and their fuel for use in the country’s nuclear weapons program. But, given India’s huge power demands, it might just as well need those old reactors to keep feeding the electricity grid too. There is also a fairly limited supply of indigenous uranium in India and any new uranium brought into India, under the terms of a reprocessing agreement that is part of the whole civil nuclear agreement, will not be available for India’s weapons program - so there is probably a limit in how many new warheads India will be able to build simply using its existing fuel stockpiles.

More importantly, the article fails to mention that India has a stellar track record when it comes to non-proliferation, whereas Pakistan has an absolutely abysmal record, thanks to the work of its leading nuclear scientist A.Q. Khan, who sold nuclear weapons technology to anyone who with a checkbook. So, yes, there is a danger of terrorists getting their hands on Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. But if they do, don’t go blaming New Delhi, or the Obama administration for that matter. (At least not because it gave nuclear power plants to India.)

What the article might have mentioned is that the U.S. could be doing a lot more to persuade India and Pakistan to take measures that might lessen the chance of a nuclear exchange if the two countries do become involved in a conventional military conflict, as they have numerous times in the past. For instance, it would be very useful if they each articulated a clear nuclear defense doctrine. It would also be good if the two nations shared far more information with one another about their nuclear defenses so that signs would not be misinterpreted during a crisis. Getting Islamabad to agree to a “no first use” policy would be a huge step too (although Islamabad would be unlikely to agree to such a measure.)

(A side note: Ed Luce writes in his brilliant book, In Spite of the Gods: The Strange Rise of Modern India, that India often sees an underlying racism in stories such as the one that just appeared in The Times — they read into them an implied accusation that South Asians can’t be trusted with nuclear weapons, whereas those in the West, can be. He says belief led to some strange moments during India’s 2002 near-war with Pakistan, during which Indian diplomats took to briefing Western journalists on how Pakistan — its sworn enemy — would never use its nuclear weapons. But, Luce writes, India is so busy defending the idea that South Asians are responsible nuclear caretakers, that it often underplays the very real danger of loose nukes on its doorstep. As Luce writes, “…I sometimes get the impression that India sees its nuclear status as hypothetical. This is reassuring. But it is also vexing, because it means India is relaxed about the nuclear postures of its neighbors, which are of a very different nature. As a result, India knows very little about the nuclear assets, policies and signaling of Pakistan and vice versa. In matters nuclear, ignorance is never bliss.”)

http://thefastertimes.com/india/201...is-the-us-india-nuclear-pact-really-to-blame/
 
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Here is an excerpt from the NYT headline article --

Leaders Gather for Nuclear Talks as New Threat Is Seen



Leaders Gather for Nuclear Talks as New Threat Is Seen - NYTimes.com

It seems that the authors of the article have lost all sense of reality or are just plain stupid to have such a narrow minded viewpoint.

Two things need to be pointed here --

A) Nowhere in the article did the authors mentioned any source to prove that the Indians have fastened their nuclear weapons production ever since the deal was signed or plans to do so in future.

Nobody has suggested that currently India is speeding up production. However the writing is on the wall as some of the facilities that were part timing between military and civilian production will now be dedicated to military production. This is the whole concern with this deal for any non-proliferation supporter. It is quite evident and the logical thing to do for India specially when Indians are always voicing their China and Pakistan paranoia.

B) Are these authors so dumb that they cannot figure out that Pakistan is always paranoid of India? Are these authors not aware of the fact that a weaker conventional forces country always relies on nuclear weapons to deter its enemy? The USSR had more nuclear warheads than USA. Why? Because of USA's conventional superiority, USSR found it absolutely necessary to have a larger nuclear warhead stockpile. The same is the case here. To say that Pakistan is building more nuclear warheads only because the Indo-US nuclear deal allows India to have more nuclear weapons-grade material is absolute non-sense.

What you ascribe to Pakistan as paranoia afflicts your side vis-a-vis China. India is not so noble to let its military nuclear production remain stagnant. Secondly, you are wrong about the USSR and US comparison. USSR at all times outnumbered US and NATO conventionally by a fairly large margin. The reason the Soviets had a larger stockpile was to ensure that they had enough to position them in their satellite bases and have the 2nd and 3rd strike capabilities. This 2nd and 3rd strike genie has no limits and you end up producing as many as you can make and store.


Certain sections of the American media are so desperate to get Pakistani support in their war against the Afghan Taliban that they have now started to bash India.

Little do these Americans know that while they might succeed in their objective, they are ultimately making a mockery of their perceived intelligence and common-sense.

Taking Pakistan and India out of this situation, the fact of the matter is that the deal given to India is a slap in the face of all non-proliferation efforts. This is where common-sense should have prevailed and no exceptions should have been made. But the Americans under the Bush administration were in such a sorry need for a success that they steamrolled this deal with India through not realizing the impact of this exception globally.

Since the exception has been made, now there is a need to make it a norm with appropriate safeguards and regimes in place. This cannot stay an exclusive club because more and more countries will call out the duplicity and go for clandestine means to acquire the capability which could very easily open up another black market that could be accessed by non-state actors just as easily as the state actors.

This is a concern for all.
 
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Speculative at best of India making weapons
Even if true.
India is in its rights to do so.

N-deal has happened live with it.
 
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Certain sections of the American media are so desperate to get Pakistani support in their war against the Afghan Taliban that they have now started to bash India.

Little do these Americans know that while they might succeed in their objective, they are ultimately making a mockery of their perceived intelligence and common-sense.

Your arguments are brash and downright hysterical.

The New York Times article is an opinion piece from one news paper. To claim that the American news media has some international policy interest is absurd. The New York Times only cares to sell papers-not decide foreign policy for the US. Further, it is absurd to think that the opinion of one news paper in America influences either the policy of the United States or that of Pakistan.
Finally, the American media has no "war against the Afghan Taliban", that would be the United States Government. And if you claim to say that certain sections of the American news media serve as a tool of the Pentagon or the US government in general, I ask you to furnish your proof to that fact. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say that your allegations are mere "slander".

As to your arguments on the article, whatever merit they may have, you should consider that the NYT article also holds a valid opinion worthy of consideration to some people who have the opposite point of view. Failing to consider that, and terming their arguments as "bashing" is merely intolerance and stifling discourse.

Instead of making blanket assertions as to India's persecution by the US media -which is preposterous in this case ; you would be better served by refuting those arguments that you deem faulty.
 
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Nobody has suggested that currently India is speeding up production. However the writing is on the wall as some of the facilities that were part timing between military and civilian production will now be dedicated to military production. This is the whole concern with this deal for any non-proliferation supporter. It is quite evident and the logical thing to do for India specially when Indians are always voicing their China and Pakistan paranoia.

Are you saying that without this nuclear deal India did not have the capacity to increase her arsenal??? We have/had far more capacity to make bombs without nuclear deal for civilian purpose....We did not so this writing on the wall is nothing but mere speculations used by our Pakistani counterparts as an excuse to their ever increasing nuclear arsenal...

Ironically a much smaller Pakistan even without a nuclear deal has already won the number game viz-a-viz nukes as compared to her arch rival who is not only bigger but also have civilian nuclear deal to free more fuel for making bombs....


What you ascribe to Pakistan as paranoia afflicts your side vis-a-vis China. India is not so noble to let its military nuclear production remain stagnant.
Really??? Care to explain unlike Pakistan why did India offered No First Use even knowing that China went nuclear way ahead of them and have bombs with a yield in MT??? Simple reason is that we have confidence as far as our conventional strength is concerned and when it comes to Nukes we only need deterrants...As far as military nuclear production is concerned i hope they are not stangnant because with a neighbour hell bent on increasing her arsenal beyond deterrance level than i don't see any other way out...



Secondly, you are wrong about the USSR and US comparison. USSR at all times outnumbered US and NATO conventionally by a fairly large margin. The reason the Soviets had a larger stockpile was to ensure that they had enough to position them in their satellite bases and have the 2nd and 3rd strike capabilities. This 2nd and 3rd strike genie has no limits and you end up producing as many as you can make and store.

Bolded part is a weak argument to produce more and more nukes...Having said it i believe USSR had more nukes because their doctorine says strike all members of NATO if ever there is any nuclear exchange....


Taking Pakistan and India out of this situation, the fact of the matter is that the deal given to India is a slap in the face of all non-proliferation efforts. This is where common-sense should have prevailed and no exceptions should have been made.
Slap on Non-Proliferation??? I think you are missing one key aspect....This deal went through only because of India's exceptional record when it comes to non-proliferation....

But the Americans under the Bush administration were in such a sorry need for a success that they steamrolled this deal with India through not realizing the impact of this exception globally.
You failed to mention that Obama administration is equally enthusiastic about this deal...



Since the exception has been made, now there is a need to make it a norm with appropriate safeguards and regimes in place. This cannot stay an exclusive club because more and more countries will call out the duplicity and go for
clandestine means to acquire the capability
which could very easily open up another black market that could be accessed by non-state actors just as easily as the state actors.

This is a concern for all.
Sorry for bad news...For some time this is going to be an exclusive club...
 
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It is quite evident and the logical thing to do for India specially when Indians are always voicing their China and Pakistan paranoia.
The accusation is made after the fact, not on the probability of the fact.
You cannot say that it is logical that would be producing nuclear weapons and thus they are doing so.
That would be akin to saying; it is logical that a poor man would steal and thus, all poor men steal!
An outrageous fallacy!

the fact of the matter is that the deal given to India is a slap in the face of all non-proliferation efforts. This is where common-sense should have prevailed and no exceptions should have been made. But the Americans under the Bush administration were in such a sorry need for a success that they steamrolled this deal with India through not realizing the impact of this exception globally.
Since the exception has been made, now there is a need to make it a norm with appropriate safeguards and regimes in place. This cannot stay an exclusive club because more and more countries will call out the duplicity and go for clandestine means to acquire the capability which could very easily open up another black market that could be accessed by non-state actors just as easily as the state actors.
This argument is yet faulty.

The whole point of the NPT and other such treaties is to encourage good behavior and the peaceful use of nuclear technologies. India, so far as their own proliferation is concerned has, in the estimation of the US and the other NPT countries exercised good behavior and worked to develop the peaceful use of nuclear technologies. The same cannot be said about Pakistan with its scandalous record with respect to AQ Khan or Iran or North Korea or any other parties who claim disparity.
This is however, not to say that the US-India deal was an exercise in laxity. There were many additional safeguards and checks put into the agreement by the US Congress and Senate to enforce India's commitment and International oversight. Apart for this, the IAEA and the NPT also envisaged similar agreements that sought to bind India to further international obligations to uphold transparency and permit oversight.

The Bush administration is even today credited for its foresight and ingenuity in furthering American business and American international relations with India through the civil nuclear deal by many. Even the Obama administration, an avowed nuclear non-proliferation proponent has sought to endorse the US-India nuclear deal and further it implementation through the recent signing of the reprocessing deal . Both these governments cannot endorse the agreement freely if it were truly such an egregious breach of international order as you perceive it to be. Further, the attempt at exposing the perceived duplicity of the deal and the motivations for pursuing nuclear weapons are two completely different agendas. Also, a standard can only be created when there are more than one of the item. For the US-India civil nuclear agreement to be standardized, there would need to be other nations that have both tested nuclear devices pursing a nuclear weapons program and have demonstrated to have abstained from spreading such technical knowledge beyond their shores. As such, there are no such equals to begin to set a standard. However, there is a necessity to formulate a path by which developing nations can walk into the nuclear club safely and without the dangers of proliferation.
 
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Nobody has suggested that currently India is speeding up production. However the writing is on the wall as some of the facilities that were part timing between military and civilian production will now be dedicated to military production. This is the whole concern with this deal for any non-proliferation supporter.

Contradictory eh?

At one time you claim no one is suggesting that India is speeding up its weapons-grade material production. Then, you go ahead and claim that because of the nuclear deal, some of India's facilities will now solely be "dedicated to military production". And that leads to what? Increased production of weapons-grade material.

You basically repeated what the article suggested. And my point remains the same -- Yes, India can produce more weapons-grade material because of the deal but is there any evidence that India is actually producing more of it or plans to do so in future?

To say that there is some sought of "writing on the wall" that India will do so is absolutely ridiculous and at best, "crystal balling". India has a massive electricity demand and India will clearly use the existing reactors to meet this demand. Obviously, you and other skeptics will argue otherwise (without showing any evidence).

Secondly, and most importantly, people keep forgetting the fact that any nuclear fuel which India imports because of this deal faces strict regulations because of the reprocessing agreement and therefore, cannot be used to produce weapons-grade material. Some others say that because of this deal, India's own indigenous uranium supplies will now be freed for weapons production. Their suggestion is laughable given the extremely limited quantity of India's domestic uranium reserves.


It is quite evident and the logical thing to do for India specially when Indians are always voicing their China and Pakistan paranoia. What you ascribe to Pakistan as paranoia afflicts your side vis-a-vis China. India is not so noble to let its military nuclear production remain stagnant.

Well, yeah, Indians are always so paranoid of China and Pakistan that even after more than 3 decades since it conducted its first nuclear test, India's stockpiles of highly enriched uranium remains much lower compared to that of Pakistan and China and even non-nuclear weapons states such as Canada, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Japan.

http://media.economist.com/images/na/2010w16/201016NAC156.jpg

Secondly, you are wrong about the USSR and US comparison. USSR at all times outnumbered US and NATO conventionally by a fairly large margin. The reason the Soviets had a larger stockpile was to ensure that they had enough to position them in their satellite bases and have the 2nd and 3rd strike capabilities. This 2nd and 3rd strike genie has no limits and you end up producing as many as you can make and store.

Yes, the USSR did outnumber US and oher NATO members for much of the duration of the Cold War. The Warsaw Pact countries had a clear conventional superiority over the NATO countries throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s. And that is why that US had more nuclear weapons than USSR during this period. It is a well known fact that the US increasingly deployed nuclear warheads in Europe to "counteract perceived Soviet conventional superiority".

Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists - Google Books

Throughout the Cold war, USA had more nuclear warheads than the USSR until the 1980s. By the mid-1980s, the USSR's economy was crumbling while the US made continuous advancements in its conventional military technology and therefore, USSR was now more focused on nuclear deterrence than the US was. And, while the US' nuclear weapons stockpile steadily declined, USSR's stockpile continued to increase rapidly.

To end, a country with a weaker conventional force always relies on nuclear weapons to deter its adversary. If Pakistan is today rapidly building more nuclear warheads and has more highly enriched uranium than India, it is solely because of the rising capability of Indian conventional forces. A US-India nuclear deal there or not, Pakistan would have expanded its nuclear warheads arsenal anyways.
 
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Blains arguments as usual make sense while our indian brothers try to dish out as much BS as they can as a response.
 
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Your arguments are brash and downright hysterical.

The New York Times article is an opinion piece from one news paper. To claim that the American news media has some international policy interest is absurd. The New York Times only cares to sell papers-not decide foreign policy for the US. Further, it is absurd to think that the opinion of one news paper in America influences either the policy of the United States or that of Pakistan.

Finally, the American media has no "war against the Afghan Taliban", that would be the United States Government. And if you claim to say that certain sections of the American news media serve as a tool of the Pentagon or the US government in general, I ask you to furnish your proof to that fact. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say that your allegations are mere "slander".

I once read a book titled Mass media and American foreign policy: insider perspectives on global journalism and the foreign policy process by Patrick O'Heffernan. Gave me a deep insight into how the American media influences the policies of its government.
 
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Blains arguments as usual make sense while our indian brothers try to dish out as much BS as they can as a response.


Would you mind highlighting the bull **** part because as far as i know we have countered his thoughts with logic??? I hope you don't call anything that don't convene with your thoughts as BS..right???
 
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To end, a country with a weaker conventional force always relies on nuclear weapons to deter its adversary. If Pakistan is today rapidly building more nuclear warheads and has more highly enriched uranium than India, it is solely because of the rising capability of Indian conventional forces. A US-India nuclear deal there or not, Pakistan would have expanded its nuclear warheads arsenal anyways.

You are partly right about the bolded part...However I strongly believe its mostly driven by your nuclear doctorine....I am sure you would agree that China is conventionally better than us...However still we don't posses more nukes than them....

For some reason Pakistan is hell bent on increasing her arsenal which is difficult to explain considering their economic state....yes they are at disparity with India when it comes to conventional strength...As far as number of nukes is concerned they still don't have enough to eliminate whole of India there by depriving us from our second strike capability...However by the time they would have enough(No idea what is enough for them) we would have our TRIAD fully functional...

Now if i look at deterrants then they already have enough to keep India at bay(that's another topic and debate as to when we have shown that agression in past 60 years)...So apart from South Asia getting pushed to MAD scenario instead of credible minimum deterrance i do not see any logic in Pakistan's ever increasing arsenal....
 
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I once read a book titled Mass media and American foreign policy: insider perspectives on global journalism and the foreign policy process by Patrick O'Heffernan. Gave me a deep insight into how the American media influences the policies of its government.
Buddy in democracy media is very important....There is a reason politicians try to avoid being a bad guy for press....Media is/was used to create good/bad perception for the government and plays a significant role in government policies(more so by keeping a check on them)...
 
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Actually, during the final moments of the passage of the India-specific nuclear deal at the IAEA some countries like Austria expressed reservations. But the US ensured the passage of the deal.

It is debatable whether non-proliferation has been strengthened or weakened by this deal. What had immensely made India's case strong is her record of not transferring technologies to other countries through clandestine means. This cannot be said of some other wannabe countries.

Pakistan will get her nuclear deal, but the time is just not right now. If some world capitals had reservations against India, then what can be said about the present status of Pakistan? Indeed maybe after a decade Pakistan will get a deal acceptable to the world community.

Manmohan Singh's willingness of not overtly hindering such a deal between US and Pakistan is based on this premise of Pakistan's poor record not facilitating such a deal. It was poor diplomacy on India's part to initially complain about a Pak-US nuke deal. Some print media comments suggested that India should have understood the Pakistan cannot get any such thing now.

There will always be naysayers about the Indo-US nuke deal, but in the long run it is probably a decent one.
 
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