Norway selects German Type 212 as its next submarine

[Fenrir]

Norway selects German Type-212 submarine

http://www.hisutton.com/Norway_Type-212.html

In a surprise move, Norway has stopped its submarine selection competition and selected a German Type-212 derived design offered by Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS). The selection is likely economical as Germany has agreed to order two more of the class (or similar Type-212) to reduce costs, and Netherlands and Poland may also join the scheme.

It will be the third TKMS designed submarine to operate with the Norwegian navy, replacing the Ula Class which was preceded by the Kobben (Type-207) Class. The Type-212 is currently only operated by Germany where it is sometimes known as U-212 Class, and Italy where it is known as the Todaro Class. It is a relatively small submarine well suited to inshore missions along the Norwegian coast but not best suited to under-ice operations. It has Air Independent Power (AIP) using two HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells each with 120 kW.

Type 212 - More pics of U34 here

Ula (Type 210).

France offered a variant of its Scorpene.

Four submarines are planned for procurement, these to replace the six Ula class submarines the Sjøforsvaret currently operates.

I'm not sure what I think of this just yet, need some time to look at the details (including what this means for me personally), so don't ask for my views.

...

Some other article authenticating this news:

http://navaltoday.com/2017/02/03/german-tkms-will-build-norways-submarines/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-submarines-idUSKBN15I13O

 

[Nilgiri]

Who were the other official contenders for the program?

 

[Nilgiri]

France's DCNS was the only other competitor shortlisted for the competition.

Barracuda (non nuclear)...or Scorpene?

I think U-212 is an excellent choice btw.

 

[Fenrir]

Who were the other official contenders for the program?

France's DCNS was the only other competitor shortlisted for the competition.

There are few countries that can produce submarines to the specifications we require (high arctic performance), remain on good terms with us (DQing Russia or China) and who actually make AIP subs (So the Americans weren't invited either, though they do have the means).

Sweden's A26 could have been a candidate, and though Sweden ordered two of the type, it's an unknown commodity against established competitors like the Type 212 (not to be confused with the downgraded export variant Type 214).

A26 looks good on paper and I know Sweden makes a good submarine, but without a working model it's a risky sale and investment.

Barracuda (non nuclear)...or Scorpene?

I think U-212 is an excellent choice btw.

All accounts I can find say Scorpene:

The Norwegian Defence Ministry in April picked DCNS of France and Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) for its short list of potential suppliers for a submarine fleet to replace the Ula-class boat.

Norway is expected to send out “technical specifications” in early 2017, with a response due at the end of 2017, and a “decision in mid-2018,” DCNS Marketing Director Eric Chaplet said.

DCNS will offer its diesel-electric Scorpene submarine, adapted to meet specific Norwegian requirements.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...evere-competition-in-norways-submarine-tender

Barracuda is very large for our needs - essentially a nuclear submarine hull fitted with a conventional propulsion system. Our doctrine is coastal defense, with occasional patrols down into the Mediterranean and frequent work in the Arctic Ocean, but that's still near shore for us as an Arctic nation.

At 5300 tons submerged, Barracuda is 5 times the size of an Ula in displacement and almost 3 times the size of a Scorpene.

They'll be damn good ocean going submarines, along side the likes of Soryu:

And Kilo:

But they're just too large for our needs. Barracuda wouldn't fit inside our subpens either:

And for berthing, maintenance, updating and sheltering, that's something they'd need to be required to do.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Norway selects German Type-212 submarine

http://www.hisutton.com/Norway_Type-212.html

In a surprise move, Norway has stopped its submarine selection competition and selected a German Type-212 derived design offered by Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS). The selection is likely economical as Germany has agreed to order two more of the class (or similar Type-212) to reduce costs, and Netherlands and Poland may also join the scheme.

It will be the third TKMS designed submarine to operate with the Norwegian navy, replacing the Ula Class which was preceded by the Kobben (Type-207) Class. The Type-212 is currently only operated by Germany where it is sometimes known as U-212 Class, and Italy where it is known as the Todaro Class. It is a relatively small submarine well suited to inshore missions along the Norwegian coast but not best suited to under-ice operations. It has Air Independent Power (AIP) using two HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells each with 120 kW.

Type 212.

Ula (Type 210).

France offered a variant of its Scorpene.

Six submarines are planned for procurement, four built in Norway and two in Germany, these to replace the six Ula class submarines the Sjøforsvaret currently operates.

I'm not sure what I think of this just yet, need some time to look at the details (including what this means for me personally), so don't ask for my views.

...

Some other article authenticating this news:

http://navaltoday.com/2017/02/03/german-tkms-will-build-norways-submarines/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-submarines-idUSKBN15I13O

would the french even offer the mesma aip? as i recall all of the scorpene subs have no aip. in fact they only exported 3. and thats not even on the scorpene.

not surprising to find the germans offered the 212 over the 214 but i thought they offered the newer type 218 like what singapore is getting.

when would the 210's retire?

 

[Nilgiri]

All accounts I can find say Scorpene:

The Norwegian Defence Ministry in April picked DCNS of France and Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) for its short list of potential suppliers for a submarine fleet to replace the Ula-class boat.

Norway is expected to send out “technical specifications” in early 2017, with a response due at the end of 2017, and a “decision in mid-2018,” DCNS Marketing Director Eric Chaplet said.

DCNS will offer its diesel-electric Scorpene submarine, adapted to meet specific Norwegian requirements.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...evere-competition-in-norways-submarine-tender

Barracuda is very large for our needs - essentially a nuclear submarine hull fitted with a conventional propulsion system. Our doctrine is coastal defense, with occasional patrols down into the Mediterranean and frequent work in the Arctic Ocean, but that's still near shore for us as an Arctic nation.

At 5300 tons submerged, Barracuda is 5 times the size of an Ula in displacement and almost 3 times the size of a Scorpene.

They'll be damn good ocean going submarines, along side the likes of Soryu:

And Kilo:

But they're just too large for our needs. Barracuda wouldn't fit inside our subpens either:
View attachment 374219

View attachment 374218

View attachment 374217

And for berthing, maintenance, updating and sheltering, that's something they'd need to be required to do.

Yup makes sense. Norway's role within NATO is also best served by mid sized SSK I feel. Larger members can bring in SSN and parallel sized diesel derivatives (if that becomes a req within NATO) in such conflicts I guess.

I guess the Aussies wanted the longer reach of Baracuda size for SSK given the amount of ocean around them (and growing security concerns) and being quite far from their friends in NATO.

 

[HAIDER]

Norway selects German Type-212 submarine

http://www.hisutton.com/Norway_Type-212.html

In a surprise move, Norway has stopped its submarine selection competition and selected a German Type-212 derived design offered by Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS). The selection is likely economical as Germany has agreed to order two more of the class (or similar Type-212) to reduce costs, and Netherlands and Poland may also join the scheme.

It will be the third TKMS designed submarine to operate with the Norwegian navy, replacing the Ula Class which was preceded by the Kobben (Type-207) Class. The Type-212 is currently only operated by Germany where it is sometimes known as U-212 Class, and Italy where it is known as the Todaro Class. It is a relatively small submarine well suited to inshore missions along the Norwegian coast but not best suited to under-ice operations. It has Air Independent Power (AIP) using two HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells each with 120 kW.

Type 212.

Ula (Type 210).

France offered a variant of its Scorpene.

Six submarines are planned for procurement, four built in Norway and two in Germany, these to replace the six Ula class submarines the Sjøforsvaret currently operates.

I'm not sure what I think of this just yet, need some time to look at the details (including what this means for me personally), so don't ask for my views.

...

Some other article authenticating this news:

http://navaltoday.com/2017/02/03/german-tkms-will-build-norways-submarines/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-submarines-idUSKBN15I13O

Can you give little comparison between German vs US sub technology of different classes ?
@Penguin too

 

[Fenrir]

would the french even offer the mesma aip? as i recall all of the scorpene subs have no aip. in fact they only exported 3. and thats not even on the scorpene.

I can't say for certain if the French did, but an AIP system was a requirement, so if they didn't they'd have really limited their chances in this competition.

not surprising to find the germans offered the 212 over the 214 but i thought they offered the newer type 218 like what singapore is getting.

The problem with the Type 216 is that it grosses roughly 4000 tons. That's almost as much as DCNS' Barracuda and way beyond what Norway requires. The Type 218 is basically a Type 214 with some modifications like an x-shaped rudder rather then the Type 214's cruciform one. Fundamentally the Type 218 is still a Type 214.

Since Norway is buying a modified Type 212 - it has to be since the original Type 212 has poor Arctic performance - the design is expected to have some alterations too to better fit our requirements. In essence it'll be like the Type 207 or 210, a Norwegian modified and improved variant of an already highly capable submarine.

There are few good pictures of Ula's x-rudder arrangement.

when would the 210's retire?

The Ula's are currently undergoing last-life updates and are expected to be out of service by 2025 at the latest. Realistically it all depends on when the new submarines arrive.

Can you give little comparison between German vs US sub technology of different classes ?
@Penguin too

There is no viable US alternative to the German designs. The Americans can, but don't produce conventional designs and since they don't this makes comparing their technologies difficult. Their nuke boats are the best around, but until they resume production of SSK or SSC type submarines, it's going to be difficult to assess.

The last operational conventional design (non-experimental) in US service was the Barbel Class:

Retired almost 30 years ago.

 

[Indika]

All accounts I can find say Scorpene:

Seems after the recent scorpene data leak , its chance of winning the contract went down drastically. But any way against whom does the norway plan to use the subs ? Only known "so called" enemy is russia and they have ssn, being part of NATO why not simply allow the american or british subs do the job?

 

[Blue Marlin]

The problem with the Type 216 is that it grosses roughly 4000 tons. That's almost as much as DCNS' Barracuda and way beyond what Norway requires. The Type 218 is basically a Type 214 with some modifications like an x-shaped rudder rather then the Type 214's cruciform one.

Since Norway is buying a modified Type 212 - it has to be since the original Type 212 has poor Arctic performance - the design is expected to have some alterations too, likely an x-shaped rudder as the Ula have.



The Ula's are currently undergoing last-life updates and are expected to be out of service by 2025 at the latest. Realistically it all depends on when the new submarines arrive.



There is no viable US alternative to the German designs. The Americans can, but don't produce conventional designs. The last operational convectional design was the Barbel Class:

i never mentioned the 216 since the barracuda was vetoed.
what does advantages does a x shaped rudder have over their cross shaped rudders?
also dont the 212 have x shaped rudder already?

how much is the contract worth and for how many subs?

 

[Nilgiri]

would the french even offer the mesma aip? as i recall all of the scorpene subs have no aip. in fact they only exported 3. and thats not even on the scorpene.

Pretty sure MESMA is a standard option on the scorpenes. Its up to the client whether they want it.

Can you give little comparison between German vs US sub technology of different classes ?
@Penguin too

Problem of direct comparison is that Germans have focused and optimised onto SSK compared to Americans who have likewise done so for SSN and SSBN.

 

[Blue Marlin]

There's conflicting information on the arrangement of the Type 218. Some sources say it's a derivative of the Type 216 and others of the Type 214.

So I covered both to be sure.

the 216 is an enlarged version of the 218. thats what the aussies said in there report when looking at the 216 to replace the Collins class sub

Pretty sure MESMA is a standard option on the scorpenes. Its up to the client whether they want it.



Problem of direct comparison is that Germans have focused and optimised onto SSK compared to Americans who have likewise done so for SSN and SSBN.

if its standard then why does no operator of the scorpene have it? not even brazil has it?

 

[Fenrir]

i never mentioned the 216 since the barracuda was vetoed.

There's conflicting information on the arrangement of the Type 218. Some sources say it's a derivative of the Type 216 and others of the Type 214.

So I covered both to be sure. Norway doesn't need a Type 216 variant and is already planning for what amounts to a Type 218, just Norwegianized and based on the non-export Type 212.

Seems after the recent scorpene data leak , its chance of winning the contract went down drastically.

Here's the thing. France was offering a design based on Scorpene, not Scorpene itself and not the same as what India operates. Norway would make extensive design changes and modifications to fit its needs - the entirety of the internal systems would be chosen based on our requirements:

Hull design changes would be made too, to optimize the submarine's performance in littoral waters and the Arctic. The relevance of the Scorpene data leak is diminished.

Only known "so called" enemy is Russia and they have ssn, being part of NATO why not simply allow the American or British subs do the job?

Because f*ck the British and Americans. Norway protects Norway. Our territorial waters are 7 times the size of our country, extending near Iceland and far into the Arctic, places the Americans and British don't frequent with the necessity needed to provide adequate defense for our nation. You'll also notice our country and waters extend over Sweden and Finland, and actually border Russia:

Being a part of NATO doesn't mean relying on others to do the heavy lifting for you, though some nations actually do that, it means doing your share to provide for the collective defense of Europe.

Why do we need an army if we have Americans stationed on our soil either?

They aren't protecting our country. We are.

 

[Nilgiri]

if its standard then why does no operator of the scorpene have it? not even brazil has it?

AFAIK, most clients simply want to retrofit into a superior AIP at a later date and have little requirement for something to be transitory in the meantime (Esp costs/down-time it would involve retrofitting twice etc).

There is much going on in fuel cell tech right now especially that will take a few more years to consolidate. MESMA is pretty much vanilla, everyone is waiting for the butterscotch.

 

[HAIDER]

I can't say for certain if the French did, but an AIP system was a requirement, so if they didn't they'd have really limited their chances in this competition.



The problem with the Type 216 is that it grosses roughly 4000 tons. That's almost as much as DCNS' Barracuda and way beyond what Norway requires. The Type 218 is basically a Type 214 with some modifications like an x-shaped rudder rather then the Type 214's cruciform one. Fundamentally the Type 218 is still a Type 214.

Since Norway is buying a modified Type 212 - it has to be since the original Type 212 has poor Arctic performance - the design is expected to have some alterations too to better fit our requirements. In essence it'll be like the Type 207 or 210, a Norwegian modified and improved variant of an already highly capable submarine.

There are few good pictures of Ula's x-rudder arrangement.

The Ula's are currently undergoing last-life updates and are expected to be out of service by 2025 at the latest. Realistically it all depends on when the new submarines arrive.



There is no viable US alternative to the German designs. The Americans can, but don't produce conventional designs and since they don't this makes comparing their technologies difficult. Their nuke boats are the best around, but until they resume production of SSK or SSC type submarines, it's going to be difficult to asses.

The last operational conventional design (non-experimental) in US service was the Barbel Class:

Retired almost 30 years ago.

So you think German carry the legacy of U boat and still sustain. Any country in the world ever used sub as rapid deployment tool in restive zone ?