No solution in Afghanistan without intervention in Pakistan, Dion says

[Janbaz]

QUEBEC - Any attempt to counter terrorists war-torn Afghanistan will not succeed without an intervention in neighbouring Pakistan, Liberal Leader Stephane Dion said Wednesday.

Dion hinted NATO could take action in Pakistan, which has a porous border with Afghanistan, if the Pakistani government doesn't move to track terrorists.

"We are going to have to discuss that very actively if they (the Pakistanis) are not able to deal with it on their own. We could consider that option with the NATO forces in order to help Pakistan help us pacify Afghanistan," said Dion in Quebec City, commenting after his two-day trip to Afghanistan last weekend. "As long as we don't solve the problem in Pakistan, I don't see how we can solve it in Afghanistan."

The Liberal leader explained that Afghan officials told him they know where the extremist strongholds are in Pakistan. But he said the Afghans don't take action.

"One day, we are going to have to act because our soldiers are cleaning out some areas, but in fact very often they are only clean in principle. The insurgents go take refuge in Pakistan and they are going to come back (to Afghanistan) at the earliest opportunity. This could last very long if we don't tackle the problems that often originate from Pakistan," Dion said.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf acknowledged last August that Islamic extremists are operating in tribal areas on his nation's side of the border with Afghanistan and providing support to insurgents fighting U.S. and NATO troops.

Musharraf and his Afghan counterpart Hamid Karzai have been urged by the U.S. and other allied countries to work together to counter the extremists' presence in the tribal belt that straddles their 2,400-kilometre border.

But Dion said that more pressure has to be put on the Pakistani government for immediate action.

Although Karzai rejected the Liberal position that Canada should end its combat mission in southern Afghanistan by February 2009, Dion reiterated his party wants a halt to the 2,500-soldier combat mission in Kandahar as scheduled.

But he said he wants some troops to remain in Afghanistan to play a different role, for instance in training police, civilian protection and reconstruction in safer zones.

"We saw how much Canada is needed for development and security purposes and we should focus on that," stressed Dion, who added he was "impressed" by the job done by the Canadian Forces.

"We were proud to be Canadians when we were in Afghanistan," he said.

But nonetheless, Dion thinks that Canada's "enormous" involvement in the combat must come to an end.

"For the mission to succeed, NATO must apply the principle of rotation. When a country is in the most difficult combat mission during three years, there must be a time for rotation," he said.

The House of Commons will have to vote on whether to extend the mission, following recommendations brought forth by the panel headed by former Liberal deputy prime minister John Manley.

No solution in Afghanistan without intervention in Pakistan, Dion says

 

[Janbaz]

Frankly i am a big Liberal/NDP person but the Ostrich leader of the party is getting on my nerves. No one pays heed really to Canadian opinions on the world stage and being an opposition leader talking...Dion get over it! Nato does not listen to fellow geenrals, he thinks they'll giv'em a sesconds attention..............!

 

[roadrunner]

Well the Canadians wouldnt last 5 minutes in Pakistan. Public opinion would have them out as quickly as they got in.

The problem with some of these NATO forces is that they don't see Pakistan as a true ally in the region. They also don't look at the situation from Pakistan's point of view. Pakistan has proved it is willing to act against the militants, so any real time intelligence will undoubtedly be acted upon. If none of the NATO forces are able to provide actionable intelligence, then they cannot be critical of Pakistan's actions (or lack of them). The final point is that it's all well and good with NATO forces making enemies of the Mehsuds and other tribes, but Pakistan cannot afford to do this. Once NATO pulls out of Afghanistan, it will be Pakistan that has to live with these tribes, so everything Pakistan does has to be extremely justifiable, with none of the western biases, or lack of respect for tribal life in warfare that sometimes exists. Comments like these are old and ignorant, but everyone seems to be criticizing each other. Perhaps Musharraf should ask Canadians to do more to prevent border crossings into Pakistan + ask Canadians to take better action in the South, or else intervention is required there?

 

[Quwa]

The West needs to realize...they don't have a moral high ground among the masses in Pakistan-Afghanistan. Chances are NATO will end up fighting the Pashtun/Pahtan tribes and the Pakistan Army, than the actual Taliban/Al Qaeda threat...especially when A.Q/Taliban suits Western interests in damaging Pakistan.

 

[Janbaz]

The West needs to realize...they don't have a moral high ground among the masses in Pakistan-Afghanistan. Chances are NATO will end up fighting the Pashtun/Pahtan tribes and the Pakistan Army, than the actual Taliban/Al Qaeda threat...especially when A.Q/Taliban suits Western interests in damaging Pakistan.

Indeed, a conservative analyst here was saying on CTV that by enetering pakistan, Nato will not only take on the Taliban, Al Qaeeda and the tribesmen but the Pakistani military machine, which in context of the region can further destabalize Afghanistan and undermine Nato's efforts...

 

[Quwa]

Indeed, a conservative analyst here was saying on CTV that by enetering pakistan, Nato will not only take on the Taliban, Al Qaeeda and the tribesmen but the Pakistani military machine, which in context of the region can further destabalize Afghanistan and undermine Nato's efforts...

Who knows...maybe a stupid move by NATO/U.S. could give Pakistan that much needed slap in the face and unity. Perhaps that unity within Pakistan could extend into Indian held Kashmir and into the Pashtu dominated parts of Afghanistan.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

These terrorists on either side of the Durand Line are nobody's friends. One should not think that they are working for the good of Afghanistan or Pakistan. They are doing things for their own agenda.

Therefore, bareboned from the religion aspect, they are a barbaric horde which is out to destabilise the institutional governance machinery in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are, in essence, against peace and law and order. Therefore, they are the malcontent who require to be lessoned.

While it is understandable that because the claim to be fighter for Islam, there is sympathy. But this is misplaced sympathy since they are destabilising Pakistan and killing innocents, who, it must be remembered are Moslems. Obviously, that is not and should not be acceptable.

There is also the danger that if these malcontent succeed, it might coalesce a sub-national fervour detrimental to Pakistan's integrity and that sub nationalism may become contagious and spread with alacrity!

It matters not as to which force smash these malcontent so long as the sovereignty of Pakistan and territorial integrity remains supreme.

Therefore, maybe a joint operation (as the CIA operatives are doing in Pakistan) with the ISAF would ensure that these malcontent lose the confidence that is slowly growing in their ranks wherein they are changing their tactics from sporadic events to mass attacks on military personnel and stockades! The bottomline being that Pakistan's national integrity remains supreme!

ISAF cannot enter and take on the Pakistan Army, as is being conjectured inone of the posts, because it does not have the strength to take on the 100,000 that Pakistan has deployed in the area. The combat ratio belies such a thought or intent! Reality is what is the need of the hour and not fiction!

Likewise to think that the Pakistan should also encompass Indian Administered Kashmir would mean that the confrontation would have to take on the numbers deployed in India Administered Kashmir! And notwithstanding the fertility of imagination, let us first get the NWFP under control, before casting the gaze elsewhere.

 

[ejaz007]

In fact intervention in Pakistan will further destabilize Afghanistan and whatever slim control US/NATO has will be lost since they will have to move their forces to areas bordering Pakistan or within Pakistani borders. In the end it shall be NATO Vs Terrorists Vs Pakistan Army Vs Pakistani People. The NATO will run away as soon as their death toll will reach 100 and leave behind a more complex situation for Pakistan Army to handle then it was before those idiots entered.
It is the same Canadians who started protesting to recall their soldiers when they lost some soldiers in the Afghanistan and now they are advocating intervention in Pakistan, which will result in perhaps 100% more casualties.
Free advice for this politician first do your own job than start criticizing others.

 

[mujahideen]

In fact intervention in Pakistan will further destabilize Afghanistan and whatever slim control US/NATO has will be lost since they will have to move their forces to areas bordering Pakistan or within Pakistani borders. In the end it shall be NATO Vs Terrorists Vs Pakistan Army Vs Pakistani People. The NATO will run away as soon as their death toll will reach 100 and leave behind a more complex situation for Pakistan Army to handle then it was before those idiots entered.
It is the same Canadians who started protesting to recall their soldiers when they lost some soldiers in the Afghanistan and now they are advocating intervention in Pakistan, which will result in perhaps 100% more casualties.
Free advice for this politician first do your own job than start criticizing others.

Destabilizing Pakistan is their dream. I agree with what you have to say for the most part. The one part which I dont agree with is where you said NATO Vs Terrorists Vs Pakistan Army Vs Pakistani people. I dont agree with this. I mean Pakistan Army Vs Pakistani people. It is the Pakistani people who created and make up the Pakistan Army. The Army might have a different mind but the heart of the Army and the people is the same. An Army can fight a war but it cannot win if the people dont support it. We saw this in the 1971 war, where the Army did fight but the people did not support it, thus resulting in a loss. And then we have the 1965 war, where the Army and people were untied thus resulting in a victory.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This is like a wakeup call for pakisran and pakistanis---things have changed---there has been a radical twist in the fortunes of pakistan in the last 180 days or so---it was not the death of Bhutto but rather what happened afterwards---death destruction mayhem and total chaos---total anarchy---no control---incompetent inspector gen police---coward police officers---over a billion ruppees in loss and no culprits---no criminal charges against the big wigs---it was not the red mosque but what happened afterwards---it was not the firing of the judges but what happened afterwards.

Just for your information---pakistan does not have diesel reserves for 10 days---pakistan is out looking for someone to give them fuel on deferred payments---pakistan's strike capabilities against a NATO attack are looking very very slim---now it looks more of a talk than anything substantial---I pray that I am proven wrong---but I am changing my stance----pakistan has no resources to protect its assets or its borders---as it has no fuel reserves left---the in fighting has destroyed whatever resolve we had left in us---Pakistan doesnot need an outside force to destroy them---PAKISTAN WILL TAKE PRIDE IN ITS AGE OLD MUSLIM TRADITION OF SELF ANNIHILATION---.

Nawaz Sharif---Justice Iftikhar Ch----Justice Rana Bhagwandas---Justice Ramday and the lawyers of the bar council will go down in the history as those who never learnt to make a comprise for the welbeing of their country.

 

[mujahideen]

Hi,

This is like a wakeup call for pakisran and pakistanis---things have changed---there has been a radical twist in the fortunes of pakistan in the last 180 days or so---it was not the death of Bhutto but rather what happened afterwards---death destruction mayhem and total chaos---total anarchy---no control---incompetent inspector gen police---coward police officers---over a billion ruppees in loss and no culprits---no criminal charges against the big wigs---it was not the red mosque but what happened afterwards---it was not the firing of the judges but what happened afterwards.

Just for your information---pakistan does not have diesel reserves for 10 days---pakistan is out looking for someone to give them fuel on deferred payments---pakistan's strike capabilities against a NATO attack are looking very very slim---now it looks more of a talk than anything substantial---I pray that I am proven wrong---but I am changing my stance----pakistan has no resources to protect its assets or its borders---as it has no fuel reserves left---the in fighting has destroyed whatever resolve we had left in us---Pakistan doesnot need an outside force to destroy them---PAKISTAN WILL TAKE PRIDE IN ITS AGE OLD MUSLIM TRADITION OF SELF ANNIHILATION---.

Nawaz Sharif---Justice Iftikhar Ch----Justice Rana Bhagwandas---Justice Ramday and the lawyers of the bar council will go down in the history as those who never learnt to make a comprise for the welbeing of their country.

What you have said I cant help it but agree. We need to do something about these problems, but the main problem is how do we turn this situation around.
Now please clear up one part. When talk about self annihilation what are you saying here? Are you saying Pakistan will commit suicide? Are you saying Pakistan will commit suicide because it is a Muslim tradition? Are you saying the problem is Islam? What are you trying to say, please can you clear this up for me.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Mujahideen,

I didn't say anything about islam---but I talked about the muslim--today's pakistani muslim and islam two different things---I hardly see a relation between, but then that is a differnt discussion---hardly any relation between the two---.

Pakistan is indeed committing suicide and the pakistanis are helping the motherland---why is Nawaz Sharif not making a compromise---why did the pakistanis went on a loot and plunder spree in december---why are the retd supreme court judges still making fiery statements against the govt---why are the attorneys not going back to work---why are the opposition politicians are hooked up with foreighn NGO's, why are the attorney hooked up with foreign NGO's---stop for a moment and think---this is destruction---every step leading to more destruction for the last 6 plus months---a power struggle under these trying times---when all the world is praying and asking for our early DEMISE---what do you think we are doing---we are putting our heads on a platter and presenting it our adversaries---isn't this suicide then what?

Again my question is why did the inspector general police sindh / karachi didnot take any action against the criminals right away---there were 20 plus diesel engine and train racks burnt---where were the pakistan's defenders---railway property damaged---gas stations burnt---banks looted---public transport destroyed----you have to ask the question---where were the protectors of the realm---what happened to the contingency plan in case a high value politician is assinated. Whole of the world watched as the one half of the pakistanis destroyed their country and the other half watched them destroy it.

 

[IceCold]

The Liberal leader explained that Afghan officials told him they know where the extremist strongholds are in Pakistan. But he said the Afghans don't take action.

Now this line the afghan officials told him. Lol greatest joke of the centruy. But it should however be an eye opener for all those in pakistan who think they can work with this regime of afghanistan. Now on who's saying did they come up with such accusions, that remains to be seen, india though holds the number one spot in the listing.
The West is clearly speaking in the words of the Afghans who clearly are speaking in the words of their new masters and we need to realize this reality before it gets too late for us to respond in kind.

 

[IceCold]

Hi Mujahideen,

I didn't say anything about islam---but I talked about the muslim--today's pakistani muslim and islam two different things---I hardly see a relation between, but then that is a differnt discussion---hardly any relation between the two---.

Pakistan is indeed committing suicide and the pakistanis are helping the motherland---why is Nawaz Sharif not making a compromise---why did the pakistanis went on a loot and plunder spree in december---why are the retd supreme court judges still making fiery statements against the govt---why are the attorneys not going back to work---why are the opposition politicians are hooked up with foreighn NGO's, why are the attorney hooked up with foreign NGO's---stop for a moment and think---this is destruction---every step leading to more destruction for the last 6 plus months---a power struggle under these trying times---when all the world is praying and asking for our early DEMISE---what do you think we are doing---we are putting our heads on a platter and presenting it our adversaries---isn't this suicide then what?

Again my question is why did the inspector general police sindh / karachi didnot take any action against the criminals right away---there were 20 plus diesel engine and train racks burnt---where were the pakistan's defenders---railway property damaged---gas stations burnt---banks looted---public transport destroyed----you have to ask the question---where were the protectors of the realm---what happened to the contingency plan in case a high value politician is assinated. Whole of the world watched as the one half of the pakistanis destroyed their country and the other half watched them destroy it.

Sir now you are trying to say the samething i was trying to in reply to one of your posts in the past that though we have internal problems thanks to our political parites like PML(N) and PPP, who are nothing more then just a toy to be used and abused by their so called leaders in the name of democracy, but west is also playing a critical role in increasing our problems.
When we talk about rooting out terrorism, have we ever wondered where did it come from, what is AQ, who is osama-bin-laden? How did afghans officials come to this conclusion that military strike in pakistan is needed to get rid of terrorism? Who's purpose will be served if such an attack happens? Why are we living in the state of denial? why are we trying to make allies that in no way are allies rather, waiting for the right opportunity to strike at pakistan.
We need to open our eyes and see the reality and differentiate between friends and foes before it gets too late and we suffer the same fate iraq did.

 

[ejaz007]

What I meant by Nato Vs Terrorist Vs Pakistan Army Vs Pakistani people is that presently Army is fighting these terrorists in Fata. I did not mean to say that Army would be Fighting Pakistani People. It simply is not possible.
Now suppose Nato moves in what happens then Army moves in to expel Nato. Its Nato Vs Terrorists (if they are coming to take care of them) and Army Vs Nato. Who gains the Terrorists gain as Army’s attentions is focused on Nato rather than Terrorists. Then to control the Terrorist Army asks Tribal elders for help and then they move in to control these Terrorists. Now its Nato Vs Pakistan Army and Terrorists Vs Pakistanis. If this goes on for about a couple of weeks then in the heat of battle one might get confused as to against whom it is fighting simple because all the people in that area whether it be army personnel or the tribal people or the terrorist they all belong to mostly same cast and apart from army personnel who wear proper uniform it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a terrorist and an innocent person. Then it becomes Nato Vs Pakistan Army Vs Terrorists Vs Pakistani People. This is great isn’t it thanks to Nato’s brilliant planning and stupidity a rather simple operations becomes a mess and it most likely shall benefit the Terrorist more than the Pakistan or Afghanistan.