New Towed Artillery Guns need of the hour !!!!!

[Super Falcon]

Should buy german artillery of WW 2

 

[Signalian]

It was Bhim SPA which ultimately failed.

And I don't think there is any SPA in Indian Army with 130mm gun mounted on T72 chassis

Not sure if this is what were discussing about, but IA tried different designs to make an SPG.

 

[Zarvan]

AH 4 is needed

 

[Signalian]

Should buy german artillery of WW 2

We have WW2 artillery in use, unfortunately, the 25 Pounders, saw those with Baluchistan Levies.

 

[amardeep mishra]

It was Bhim SPA which ultimately failed.

Hi @Tipu7 ,
Your assessment is quite wrong. Bhim did not fail, it was dropped because Denel was blacklisted from doing business in India for alleged bribery allegations. Same happened with thyssenkrup and others. At least get your facts right before you present them.

March 2017. Had a discussion with an indian troll. He posted pics of that SPG in exercises conducted in past few years in Rajasthan. His posts have been deleted from Artillery upgrade discussion.

Hi @Signalian
There was a time when IA was looking for new pieces of 155mm arty and there were no inductions since the 80s (thanks to this deal tainted by Rajeev Gandhi and all!), but that has changed in past 5-6 years. I am sure those who follow the arty upgrade program in India would know that arty program is being taken up in a very BIG way in India. Not only is public-pvt partnership yielding results, big pvt giants have come up with their own designs. For instance the forging giant, Bharat Forge has come up with a variety of their own offerings, for instance their 155mm/39cal light weight is available in titanium and steel. The titanium one weighs around 4.8t (as against 4.5t for similar American gun that India is importing) and steel one weighs around 6t.

Fig: Bharat Forge's 155mm/39cal Titanium light weight gun
They are equipped with some serious forging capabilities and have been supplying reactor vessels for nuclear power plants for a long time. This particular light weight titanium gun has passed their internal trials and is being currently trialed by the users. Once passed this gun can be procured in numbers. To save cost, they have the same gun in steel as well, although that weighs at around 6t. I happened to have seen both the variants up close and had interaction with folks who designed it.
What I personally believe is, there is a deep sense of consternation at PA's arty corp as they see India inducting new arty systems. Majority of the arty systems that India is inducting or are under trials have been designed in house by either pvt players (like the light weight titanium 155mm/39cal, 155mm/52cal by Bharat Forge), public (like the 155mm/45cal Dhanush) or public-pvt partnership model (like the ATAGS). Pakistan in such a situation needs an arty rationalization program of her own, however since there are no entities in Pakistan that can "design" guns of this calibre, they would have to eventually settle with south african Denel or the Chinese offering. I am sure, the Denel makes a very good proposition. Especially in the face of ATAGS, Pakistan needs nothing less than Denel!

 

[Signalian]

Hi @Signalian
There was a time when IA was looking for new pieces of 155mm arty and there were no inductions since the 80s (thanks to this deal tainted by Rajeev Gandhi and all!), but that has changed in past 5-6 years. I am sure those who follow the arty upgrade program in India would know that arty program is being taken up in a very BIG way in India. Not only is public-pvt partnership yielding results, big pvt giants have come up with their own designs. For instance the forging giant, Bharat Forge has come up with a variety of their own offerings, for instance their 155mm/39cal light weight is available in titanium and steel. The titanium one weighs around 4.8t (as against 4.5t for similar American gun that India is importing) and steel one weighs around 6t.
View attachment 549539
View attachment 549540
Fig: Bharat Forge's 155mm/39cal Titanium light weight gun
They are equipped with some serious forging capabilities and have been supplying reactor vessels for nuclear power plants for a long time. This particular light weight titanium gun has passed their internal trials and is being currently trialed by the users. Once passed this gun can be procured in numbers. To save cost, they have the same gun in steel as well, although that weighs at around 6t. I happened to have seen both the variants up close and had interaction with folks who designed it.
What I personally believe is, there is a deep sense of consternation at PA's arty corp as they see India inducting new arty systems. Majority of the arty systems that India is inducting or are under trials have been designed in house by either pvt players (like the light weight titanium 155mm/39cal, 155mm/52cal by Bharat Forge), public (like the 155mm/45cal Dhanush) or public-pvt partnership model (like the ATAGS). Pakistan in such a situation needs an arty rationalization program of her own, however since there are no entities in Pakistan that can "design" guns of this calibre, they would have to eventually settle with south african Denel or the Chinese offering. I am sure, the Denel makes a very good proposition. Especially in the face of ATAGS, Pakistan needs nothing less than Denel!

Locally designed or produced artillery systems make little sense since Indian Army has already placed orders for new artillery guns (towed and SP) from USA and ROK. Indian Army has been trying to bring all guns up to 155mm caliber, yet there are still different calibers in service. Replacing and modernizing such a massive army for both infantry and mechanized needs will take a lot of time. The newer SP guns are not enough in numbers, around 100 or so. For 3 Armored Divisions, 4-5 RAPID's, 7 Armored Brigades plus 2 Artillery Divisions, the amount of these SPG's are agonizingly short and will continuously hinder the performance of these formations. Using towed guns like M-777, FH-77 etc will not help armored operations, especially for the IBG's.

Your personal feeling is baseless since Pakistan on the other hand fields combat proven M-109 systems, some 280+ in service and 40 M-110's with heavy caliber. Pakistan has quietly added more M-109's from Italy after Indian placed order to ROK for K-9 SPG's. These SP systems are inducted in 2 Armor Divisions, 2 Mechanized Divisions, 7 Armored Brigades and 2 Artillery Divisions. Thus the SPG's are in good number to support maneuver operations.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

only drawback is, its not a howitzer

what is the basic difference between Artillery gun and howitzer
in layman terms

 

[Signalian]

what is the basic difference between Artillery gun and howitzer
in layman terms

Howitzer can achieve higher angle.

I hope these images help.

In above image, Field gun cannot reach that high angle to hit the target.


In below image, Field gun can attain the range, but cannot achieve enough elevation.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Howitzer can achieve higher angle.

I hope these images help.

View attachment 549556
In above image, Field gun cannot reach that high angle to hit the target.


In below image, Field gun can attain the range, but cannot achieve enough elevation.
View attachment 549557

thanks for explaining

 

[amardeep mishra]

Locally designed or produced artillery systems make little sense since Indian Army has already placed orders for new artillery guns (towed and SP) from USA and ROK. Indian Army has been trying to bring all guns up to 155mm caliber, yet there are still different calibers in service. Replacing and modernizing such a massive army for both infantry and mechanized needs will take a lot of time. The newer SP guns are not enough in numbers, around 100 or so. For 3 Armored Divisions, 4-5 RAPID's, 7 Armored Brigades plus 2 Artillery Divisions, the amount of these SPG's are agonizingly short and will continuously hinder the performance of these formations. Using towed guns like M-777, FH-77 etc will not help armored operations, especially for the IBG's.

Your personal feeling is baseless since Pakistan on the other hand fields combat proven M-109 systems, some 280+ in service and 40 M-110's with heavy caliber. Pakistan has quietly added more M-109's from Italy after Indian placed order to ROK for K-9 SPG's. These SP systems are inducted in 2 Armor Divisions, 2 Mechanized Divisions, 7 Armored Brigades and 2 Artillery Divisions. Thus the SPG's are in good number to support maneuver operations.

There's no doubt that the number of SPs in India is woefully small. But India is converging onto 155mm and a lot of steps have been taken in that direction. Towed arty is the one that dominates over SPs in india, hopefully this number will change over time as more and more SPs are inducted . M777 is not for RAPIDs in plains, but for mountains. For RAPIDS the towed are enough for now. M109 no doubt is a very reliable system, however they're not full 52cal, like the K9 vajra that India has inducted. M109 has the advantages of tracked vehicle, however it fades in sheer range and firepower comparison to let's say 45 or 52 calibre systems. My point is not baseless because in a few years time India plans to induct a HOST of various 155mm systems in 39cal(Bharat Forge's light weight titanium gun), 45cal (Dhanush the orders will further go up) and finally 52CAL (ATAGS). Not to mention systems for which orders have already been placed. Also my point was Pakistan needs a potent 155mm/52 cal system to counter IA's own 52 cal system and that in my mind is Denel's tested system