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China to conquer world arms market with poor quality rip-offs

04.10.2010

US experts believe that China has copied Russian weapons again. This time it goes about submarines. US analysts say that the new Yuan class (type 41 A, B, C) diesel-electric submarines are rips-off of Russian Kilo and Lada projects.

China purchased several Kilo project submarines from Russia at the end of the 1990s. Back in those years, the subs were considered Russia's most modern non-nuclear submarines as NATO specialists said. Kilo submarines are capable of covering distances of up to 700 kilometers at the speed of 5 km/h in a noiseless mode, without the risk of being detected by enemies. US experts acknowledged that Kilo submarines equipped with SS-N-27 cruise submarines were very dangerous for American aircraft carriers. The cheap price of the deal was the main factor that attracted China: Russia was selling the subs for $200 million each, whereas the cost of Western analogues began from $400 million.

First kilo submarines entered the Soviet navy at the end of the 1980s. Russia built 54 such subs, the Russian navy received 24 Kilo subs, 30 others were exported to China, North Korea and Iran.

Soviet engineers started working on another version of Kilo submarines - 877 Lada - shortly before the collapse of the USSR. The works were suspended in 1997 because of the lack of funding. Russia's first Lada submarine was launched only in 2009. Now Russia is building another Lada submarine and plans to build eight others.

China has built three submarines that bear a striking resemblance to Russian Kilo and Lada subs. It is not really clear how Chinese engineers have managed to rip off the Lada sub, because Russia has not exported any of them yet.

NATO experts consider Lada subs more dangerous claiming that it is much more difficult to detect it because of the sound-absorbing coating and so-called quiet propellers. Lada is eight times less noisy than Kilo submarines; its endurance and operational range is much more considerable.

As for China's underwater fleet, the nation currently has 56 submarines, including three nuclear-powered ones. The increased interest in diesel submarines can be explained with the fact that Chinese nuclear submarines are considered very noisy and therefore are easily detected by US warships.

Have Chinese engineers observed quality? Most likely, they have not. Foreign military experts said that the new Chinese Yuan is larger than Kilo and Lada, but have common design features. A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities.

China previously had the licensed production of Soviet Romeo submarines, which were dubbed in China as "Type 39." Chinese engineers acknowledged that their developments were based on Russian state-of-the-art defense technologies. However, they vehemently denied the fact of blunt copying claiming that that they had considerably improved them.

It is an open secret that China has copied quite a number of Russian weapons. The list begins with Soviet I-15 and I-16 fighter jets, not to mention the legendary Kalashnikov rifle.

The list continues with D-30 howitzer, BMP-1 armored vehicle, BMP-3, Malyutka anti-tank complex, An-12 military cargo plane, Strela-2 shoulder-fired missile complex, S-300 missile system, Msta-S howitzer, Smerch volley-fire system and other weaponry. The last rip-off report was referred to Su-33 deck-based fighter jet.

It may seem strange that Russia has not set forth any claims to China yet. However, China is Russia's long-time partner in the field of arms trade and Russia is not willing to ruin relations with China. Does Russia overestimate the importance of defense cooperation with the Asian giant? China usually makes small one-time purchases that do not bring much profit to Russia. Moreover, the purchases are made to simply copy the original. For example, the Chinese bought one or two radars for fighter jets from Russia only to launch their serial production several years later.

"China is acting like a superpower, whose military power can be noticed both at sea and in the air. To accomplish the goal, China has been copying other weapons, presumably of the Russian origin, to catch up with its primary competitor - the United States. It is not ruled out that China will eventually pursue its goal. Russia did the same during the 1930s and so did the Japanese, who currently top the pedestal of the technological progress. As a result, Chinese submarines will be patrolling US coastlines, like Soviet vessels used to do it," Konstantin Sivkov, vice president of the Academy for Geopolitical Problems told Pravda.Ru.

The fact that China has become very quick in copying Russian arms and launching them in serial production shows that the nation has reached the modern industrial level. The problem is about the quality. Chinese weapons have been reputed in the world as cheap and disposable. However, the Asian giant may eventually solve this problem too some day. In this case, China will easily conquer world markets of arms.

Sergey Balmasov
Pravda.Ru
 
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China to conquer world arms market with poor quality rip-offs

04.10.2010

US experts believe that China has copied Russian weapons again. This time it goes about submarines. US analysts say that the new Yuan class (type 41 A, B, C) diesel-electric submarines are rips-off of Russian Kilo and Lada projects.

China purchased several Kilo project submarines from Russia at the end of the 1990s. Back in those years, the subs were considered Russia's most modern non-nuclear submarines as NATO specialists said. Kilo submarines are capable of covering distances of up to 700 kilometers at the speed of 5 km/h in a noiseless mode, without the risk of being detected by enemies. US experts acknowledged that Kilo submarines equipped with SS-N-27 cruise submarines were very dangerous for American aircraft carriers. The cheap price of the deal was the main factor that attracted China: Russia was selling the subs for $200 million each, whereas the cost of Western analogues began from $400 million.

First kilo submarines entered the Soviet navy at the end of the 1980s. Russia built 54 such subs, the Russian navy received 24 Kilo subs, 30 others were exported to China, North Korea and Iran.

Soviet engineers started working on another version of Kilo submarines - 877 Lada - shortly before the collapse of the USSR. The works were suspended in 1997 because of the lack of funding. Russia's first Lada submarine was launched only in 2009. Now Russia is building another Lada submarine and plans to build eight others.

China has built three submarines that bear a striking resemblance to Russian Kilo and Lada subs. It is not really clear how Chinese engineers have managed to rip off the Lada sub, because Russia has not exported any of them yet.

NATO experts consider Lada subs more dangerous claiming that it is much more difficult to detect it because of the sound-absorbing coating and so-called quiet propellers. Lada is eight times less noisy than Kilo submarines; its endurance and operational range is much more considerable.

As for China's underwater fleet, the nation currently has 56 submarines, including three nuclear-powered ones. The increased interest in diesel submarines can be explained with the fact that Chinese nuclear submarines are considered very noisy and therefore are easily detected by US warships.

Have Chinese engineers observed quality? Most likely, they have not. Foreign military experts said that the new Chinese Yuan is larger than Kilo and Lada, but have common design features. A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities.

China previously had the licensed production of Soviet Romeo submarines, which were dubbed in China as "Type 39." Chinese engineers acknowledged that their developments were based on Russian state-of-the-art defense technologies. However, they vehemently denied the fact of blunt copying claiming that that they had considerably improved them.

It is an open secret that China has copied quite a number of Russian weapons. The list begins with Soviet I-15 and I-16 fighter jets, not to mention the legendary Kalashnikov rifle.

The list continues with D-30 howitzer, BMP-1 armored vehicle, BMP-3, Malyutka anti-tank complex, An-12 military cargo plane, Strela-2 shoulder-fired missile complex, S-300 missile system, Msta-S howitzer, Smerch volley-fire system and other weaponry. The last rip-off report was referred to Su-33 deck-based fighter jet.

It may seem strange that Russia has not set forth any claims to China yet. However, China is Russia's long-time partner in the field of arms trade and Russia is not willing to ruin relations with China. Does Russia overestimate the importance of defense cooperation with the Asian giant? China usually makes small one-time purchases that do not bring much profit to Russia. Moreover, the purchases are made to simply copy the original. For example, the Chinese bought one or two radars for fighter jets from Russia only to launch their serial production several years later.

"China is acting like a superpower, whose military power can be noticed both at sea and in the air. To accomplish the goal, China has been copying other weapons, presumably of the Russian origin, to catch up with its primary competitor - the United States. It is not ruled out that China will eventually pursue its goal. Russia did the same during the 1930s and so did the Japanese, who currently top the pedestal of the technological progress. As a result, Chinese submarines will be patrolling US coastlines, like Soviet vessels used to do it," Konstantin Sivkov, vice president of the Academy for Geopolitical Problems told Pravda.Ru.

The fact that China has become very quick in copying Russian arms and launching them in serial production shows that the nation has reached the modern industrial level. The problem is about the quality. Chinese weapons have been reputed in the world as cheap and disposable. However, the Asian giant may eventually solve this problem too some day. In this case, China will easily conquer world markets of arms.

Sergey Balmasov
Pravda.Ru

Article already posted.

Anyways, China still beats India because India is not even capable of copying :

Read explanation below :

In my view, the concept of reverse engineering has been misunderstood. Reverse engineering is NOT the mindless copying of a product or weapon. Reverse engineering is actually a shortened form of research and development (i.e. R&D).

Let's say that you and I are both in the business of building cars. However, your car is better than mine. Isn't it common sense for me to obtain a sample of your car and study the features and reasons that your car model is better than mine? After a thorough examination, doesn't it make sense for me to improve my product by incorporating your best ideas from the detailed research or reverse engineering?

Reverse engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Reverse engineering is the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object or system through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It often involves taking something (e.g., a mechanical device, electronic component, or software program) apart and analyzing its workings in detail to be used in maintenance, or to try to make a new device or program that does the same thing without utilizing any physical part of the original.

Reverse engineering has its origins in the analysis of hardware for commercial or military advantage.[1] The purpose is to deduce design decisions from end products with little or no additional knowledge about the procedures involved in the original production. The same techniques are subsequently being researched for application to legacy software systems, not for industrial or defence ends, but rather to replace incorrect, incomplete, or otherwise unavailable documentation.[2]"

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Let's look at the two examples in the first two posts. China's Yu-6 is clearly a reverse-engineered U.S. Mark-48 heavyweight torpedo. What kind of torpedo is the U.S. using today? The Mark-48. Conclusion: reverse-engineering of the Mark-48 that resulted in the Yu-6 enabled China to catch-up to the U.S. in heavyweight torpedo technology. One U.S. Mark-48 heavyweight torpedo can split a destroyer into two halves. Similarly, a Chinese Yu-6 torpedo can achieve the same devastating effect.

The allegation that China reverse-engineered the W-88 has never been proven. The seismic signatures look similar, but they are not identical. Anyway, for argument's sake, let's assume that China reverse-engineered the W-88. What is the most advanced warhead in the U.S. nuclear arsenal today? The W-88. Using alleged reverse-engineering, China has equal technology and capability in the Chinese W-88. Conclusion: either independent research and development or reverse-engineering (e.g. studying the blueprints of the other team) has resulted in China matching U.S. thermonuclear technology in terms of warhead compactness and yield.

The point is that reverse-engineering is merely one useful tool to help a nation match the military and technological capabilities of another country. Reverse-engineering is a good thing.

India's Nuclear Weapons Program - Present Capabilities
India's Nuclear Weapons Program - Present Capabilities

"The Prithvi is a descendant of an earlier program called "Project Devil", an attempt to reverse engineer the Soviet SA-2 liquid fuel surface-to-air missile by the Defense Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) at Hyderabad. This latter project, initiated under the leadership of Dr. Dr. Basanti Dulal Nag Chaudhuri, was a failure and was cancelled in 1978; nonetheless valuable experience and technical skill was obtained which provided the basis for Prithvi."

Overconfidence Fails Cryogenic Engine | iGoa
Overconfidence Fails Cryogenic Engine | iGoa

"India needs to thank erstwhile Soviet Union and present day Russian republic for the design and blue prints of cryogenic engines. When foreign countries transfer such designs and blueprints there is always a risk in replicating them. Theoretically it is possible for every country to be technologically self reliant. But, practically, it is not possible.
Americans imitated the Germans. Japanese imitate the Americans. Chinese imitate every other country. India is good in reverse engineering foreign technologies. What’s the meaning of indigenisation? It is not an absolutely new design for a cryogenic engine. Indigenisation means fabrication or assembly of the engine indigenously but we really don’t know the extent of foreign components incorporated in an Indian cryogenic engine."

ISRO chief on India's big leap

"Q. But it almost looks like a Russian engine...

A. See cryogenics is a liquid Oxygen and liquid Hydrogen. It is a staged combustion cycle that is there. But we have realized it, the Indians have designed it, the Indians have built it, and 75 percent of the materials are from India that is used.

Q. So it is not reverse engineered?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Because it is really one is to one so how do you say it is not reverse engineered? How can you make people believe that you did not copy the Russian design?

A. It is not one is to one. But if you see the specifications of putting in at that class of the satellite if you work out what is the velocity that needs to be added by the upper stage of the engine- same number you have to provide. So whether it is a Russian engineer designing or Indian engineer designing, it is to the same specification."

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I don't understand the need to deny the obvious. India has already tried to reverse-engineer the "Soviet SA-2 surface-to-air missile." I think many people are more willing to trust their eyes than to believe the claims of the ISRO chief, who is too proud to admit the truth.

The ISRO chief isn't making much sense. The American, Russian, and Chinese cryogenic engines look completely different. They are truly indigenous designs. Why does the Indian cryogenic engine look like the Russians'? Isn't the answer obvious? It's at least partially reverse-engineered.

If the cryogenic engine is fully indigenous, how come 25% of the parts are being imported? Doesn't it make more sense that India has reverse-engineered 75% (e.g. a great achievement for a first attempt) of the Russian cryogenic engine and the 25% that hasn't been reverse-engineered yet must be imported?

After India can fully manufacture 100% of a reverse-engineered Russian cryogenic engine, she will go on to design and build more advanced indigenous versions. This is a natural progression. Reverse-engineering is a necessary intermediate step. It is not realistic to start from zero and build a fully indigenous 28-nanometer computer microprocessor.

Why dance around the issue? There is nothing wrong with reverse-engineering. The Romans reverse-engineered Carthage's superior trireme to finally defeat the Carthaginian navy with their own warship design.

Carthage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carthage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Roman trireme mosaic from Carthage, Bardo Museum, Tunis ... managed to finally defeat Carthage with a combination of reverse engineering captured ..."
 
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