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Neo-Indus nationalism does not work

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Islam is more than just a religion, it tells you what to do in every aspect of life.



And any elements of them that contradict Islam, must be exterminated.



That's a bit of a reach.



You clearly didn't read the entirety of my post.
Egypt is not a that big of a reach, comes to show how much you know about our cultural past. You do realize that modern Pakistanis are like 70% foreigners that migrated to this place, right?

You're dodging the subject since you're clearly unable to refute my points.



But those people never demanded an independent nation, so it would be silly to assume people from the Indus would do so based on the same reason.



Religion should come first because it's the crux of why Pakistan exists.
What about the non- muslims? Should we push them all into the Arabian ocean?
 
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Yes, but that was in the Middle Ages.

And?

The Holy Qur'an doesn't make any mention of the second coming of Jesus, or of Mahdi.

But the Sunnah does, and the Quran says to follow the Sunnah.

Family, health, wealth, faith, success etc are all important.

Only because God says it is. Beyond religion, there is no objective reality.

Your obsession over death is what is causing you to be this myopic.

You haven't explained how what I'm saying is myopic. You're just throwing around this word without knowing what it means.

Egypt is not a that big of a reach

Prove to me that it isn't.

You do realize that modern Pakistanis are like 70% foreigners that migrated to this place, right?

Pakistanis are mixed.

What about the non- muslims? Should we push them all into the Arabian ocean?

No, they can stay so long as they pay jizya. Otherwise, they're going to jail for not paying taxes.

Make no mistake Pakistan is here for eternity.

That's not possible.

My bet is on janab Indus Pak.

:cry:
 
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And?



But the Sunnah does, and the Quran says to follow the Sunnah.



Only because God says it is. Beyond religion, there is no objective reality.



You haven't explained how what I'm saying is myopic. You're just throwing around this word without knowing what it means.



Prove to me that it isn't.



Pakistanis are mixed.



No, they can stay so long as they pay jizya. Otherwise, they're going to jail for not paying taxes.
Are you mad? I as a citizen of the islamic republic of pakistan see you as a threat to our unity and diversity. I as a muslim see you as a threat to Islam and the teaching of our messenger. @Dubious
 
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Well, we don't live in the Middle Ages anymore, do we? As a species, wouldn't you agree that we have moved on from the time when we used to exterminate anyone that didn't fit our own criteria (or the criteria that our masters/clerics proclaim that GOD has given)?

And if we haven't moved on...well...shouldn't we?
 
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Well, we don't live in the Middle Ages anymore, do we?

Why does the time-period we live in determine morality?

As a species, wouldn't you agree that we have moved on from the time when we used to exterminate anyone that didn't fit our own criteria

Lmao I'd vehemently disagree, as would many others but they're all dead (courtesy of Hitler, Stalin, Bush the 2nd, Netanyahu and many more).

And if we haven't moved on...shouldn't we?

Well, what has illegalising certain aspects of our culture that we deem morally reprehensible got to do with what you're saying?

The Sunnah you are referring to is the Qur'an itself, not the later conjecture

It's not later "conjecture", it's taken directly from Rasulullah (peace be upon him) himself.

I'll leave you with this video on the topic:

 
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logic, reason, critical thinking, lateral thinking, educated healthy population with minimal poverty. Children who can go to school and be children and have a prosperous future. No one in Pakistan going to sleep hungry.

Can never achieve this by being a closed off radical Islamist country.

Islam is a beautiful faith but like with everything in moderation.
 
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I don't know why Pakistanis on this forum are so obsessed with identity. I swear you make it sound like some of you have your own name tattooed onto your hand as to be sure of your identity.

Historical identity is completely irrelevant to you right now. IVC, so what? Great for a museum and a chapter in a text book. Mughals? Big deal. Today they represent some pretty buildings and another chapter or two in a text book.

If history is your thing, great run with it, emmerse yourself in it, but don't obsess with it. The only identity that matters is what you are and what you want to be.

Our nation will not be defined by painting a pretty historical narrative, it will be defined by people looking at themselves, seeing who they are and striving to what they want to be. Whatever that is - what people want to be, the steps they take, will define our identity at any given time.
 
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I think the title is fairly self-explanatory. But you may be asking, what do I mean by neo-Indus nationalism?

By neo-Indus nationalism, I am referring to the (relatively) modern sub-ideology of Pakistani nationalism, which postulates that rather than Pakistan being made as a homeland for the Muslims of British India, Pakistan was in fact made for the people of the Indus. As a result, the individuals who subscribe to this school of thought (i.e many of the members on this forum) tend to view history in the prism of "the Indus vs everyone else".

I consider this thought-process to be problematic for the following reasons, which I will elaborate on:

1. Pakistan was not founded as a nation for the people of the Indus

This is by far the biggest contradiction to neo-Indus nationalism. Pakistan itself was always envisioned as a nation for the Muslims of British India, rather than as a distinct nation for the people of the Indus. Muhammad Ali Jinnah and others always spoke about how Muslims from British India were a different community to the rest, but never did Pakistan's founding fathers mention that the people of the Indus were different to the rest of British India on the sole basis of them being from the Indus. If Pakistan were founded as a nation for the people of the Indus first and foremost, then why does the two-nation theory speak about Muslims vis a vis the rest of British India rather than the people of the Indus? Why did so many Muslims from beyond the Indus migrate to Pakistan during partition? Why was Bangladesh made a part of Pakistan? Why was the Punjab divided? Why is it that Muhammad Bin Qasim, and not the Indus Priest King is viewed as the metaphorical first Pakistani?

I will leave you with this speech from Muhammad Ali Jinnah:

"It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state."


2. The Muslims of the Indus region are, broadly speaking, similar to those inhabiting the rest of the north of the sub-continent

I think the point itself is fairly self-explanatory. The reason why I say this is because I find it pretty undeniable. Most Muslims from both the Indus and the rest of the north of the sub-continent speak Urdu (and used to speak Farsi), have minor amounts of ancestry from people who came to the region during the Islamic rule over it, wear topis, wear headscarves, grow long beards, pray in Arabic, identify primarily with their religion, follow similar social rules (i.e doing what is halal and avoiding what is haram), keep many of the same tribes/clans, share similar heroes, look fairly similar, keep similar names, etc. Again, this is proven by the fact that many Muslims from the north of the sub-continent that came from beyond the Indus migrated to it during the partition of British India. Not only that, but throughout most of history, the Indus region has been considered no more distinct from the rest of the north of the sub-continent than any other part of it (other than the fact that it was considered the gateway to the rest of it).

3. Neo-Indus nationalism reeks of ethnic pride

My problem with ethnic pride is the fact that it is just plain silly. Why would you take pride in something you had no choice in being? Just because it's inherited doesn't make it any less ridiculous, can you imagine people saying they're proud to be blue-eyed? Or proud to be a ginger? Or proud to be 5'10? It's silly, and even more silly when one considers that all of humanity shares a common origin and that we are all almost identical on a biological level.

Conclusion:

I think this attempt to try and form a cohesive Pakistani identity without involving Islam has utterly failed. I will soon make a follow-up thread justifying my position that being a proud Pakistani must entail one's appreciation for Islamic principles and values as well as Muslim history (especially from what was once British India).

@Indus Pakistan @Indus Priest King @Samlee @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @war&peace @Ahmad Sajjad Paracha @Ahmet Pasha @iqbal Ali @newb3e @AfrazulMandal @M.R.9 @Kambojaric @Army research @Champion_Usmani @Clutch @Areesh @Zibago @django @Horus @Mentee @maximuswarrior @Imran Khan @Reichsmarschall @Talwar e Pakistan @RiazHaq @WebMaster @TMA @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox @waz @Mugwop @Albatross @RealNapster @Dalit @Ocean @Starlord @hussain0216 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir @Taimoor Khan @Hassan Guy @UnitedPak @WAJsal @JohnWick

The most difficult thing for a Pakistani to recognise and to acknowledge is the true foundation of Pakistan. That is why we keep stumbling into these raging feuds over the nature of Pakistan. While these feuds are numerous, one of them is between the older concept of a creation for the safe haven of the Muslims of the sub-continent, intended to allow them to lead their own distinctive life-style and their religion, and the newer concept of a creation put together of an existing region distinct from the rest of India that had been distinct from time immemorial.
 
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