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Need supportive arguments for ISI

_alee

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I am lehman when it comes to military and political internal affairs but I have big pride if someone even try to bash Pakistan, Pakistan Forces etc.

Recently, I shared a web link where ISI was listed as the best secret service. The discussion went on and tried to supprt things as much i could. However, there are few things that i am also speechless .. I need your help

First of all, could u guys help me in proving that ISI is best?

Secondly, Most of the things that those ppl are saying are based on the facts that the internal war that is going on now a days in pakistan, bomb blasts etc it is part of india-US infilitration in pakistan to destablize it. I read it somewhere and those guys are not even buying it. How would i justify it?

The involvement of india in taliban. in afghan agencies .. .. how would i justify india's involvement there?

And lastly, the lal-masjid event. They are claiming that it was ISI which made it worst.

Either I am wrong. if thats the case the please correct me .. or help me in collecting even proof to shut those guys!

thanks ..
 
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Who are you discussing this with? If it's indians, don't even bother. If it's westerners, don't bother again.
 
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these are pakistani white brain washed ppl living here in canada .. :|

---------- Post added at 06:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 AM ----------

Dude, I just can't listen a single word against pakistan and they are raising lots of questions .. at least give me some basics to shut them up
 
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ISI kicks azz, that's all!
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---------- Post added at 06:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

these are pakistani white brain washed ppl living here in canada .. :|

---------- Post added at 06:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 AM ----------

Dude, I just can't listen a single word against pakistan and they are raising lots of questions .. at least give me some basics to shut them up

they're the worst, i wouldn't even give a flying fhk what they think of ISI!
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I would really appreciate if you guys help a little rather giving advices .. :) .. *PEACE*
 
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Considering budget that ISI get, i think it's doing great job. Other world agencies are getting a lot $.
 
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these are pakistani white brain washed ppl living here in canada .. :|

---------- Post added at 06:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 AM ----------

Dude, I just can't listen a single word against pakistan and they are raising lots of questions .. at least give me some basics to shut them up

Well a lot of Pakistanis are far more worried about their self-interests rather than Pakistan. For many Pakistanis, for instance, supporting a certain political party is more important. If that party is against Pakistani interests (such as PPP and their hiding of poverty figures) or is against the army, then they go along with it.

1. As far as ISI competence goes, here's the best way to look at it. Pakistan is facing infinitely more terrorist plots than any other countries. ISI tends to track and report most of them to the police/army. It's police/army's job from there to stop them.

On an external level, look how much noise is being made about the ISI. That's one way to look at it. If a lot of noise is being made about a certain intelligence group, you can bet your life it's most likely doing a pretty good job.

What kind of counter arguments are you getting from those people btw?

2. As far as Indian involvement goes, there is no public evidence against India that we can call concrete - just like all recent allegations against ISI. What I can assure you is that ISI has enough evidence against India and India is deeply involved in supporting TTP and BLA and has hand in a large number of terrorist attacks in the last few years.

Pakistan, however, is being pressured/threatened by the US to not go public with the evidence. It's completely against US interests to have that happen. The current government is not too willing to deal with the problem either.

3. Indian influence on Afghan intelligence - well that's like asking grass is green or sky is blue. The Afghan state is ran by non-Pashtun, who are vehemently pro-India and anti-Pakistan. We all know about amrullah saleh - he was previous chief of Afghan intelligence and was heavily pro-India/anti-Pakistan.

One of the articles on guardian which was mainly talking about wikileaks also talked about how Afghan Intelligence wants to see an ISI agent under every rock.

4. As far as ISI making Lal Masjid worse, ask them for the source of this information.

Remember few things about debating. If someone makes a certain claim, unless the claim is obvious or well known, do ask for a source. Then after that, the source can be questioned and what not based on what information it is providing and how the source got the information.

A lot of times you won't be able to support your arguments since there will be a lack of serious evidence to support your claims. But they will also be in the that position at one time or another. I can guarantee you that they will almost certainly raise the lack of proof and not take your argument seriously. You should do the exact same when they have no proof for their claims either.

Classic example of the above: Indians demonized and vehemently attacked Pakistanis (and still do) for believing in claims that India is supporting terrorism in Pakistan without any proof. They called us conspiracy theorists, head buried in sand, irrational, illogical, and what not. Now they make claims without any evidence so I call them on that and use the same language they used on us. See how tables turn.


Don't just take their arguments like that. People will walk all over you if you do.
 
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Alee - How about searching for the truth yourself instead of peddling something that might not be true? You should be intellectually honest with yourself as that is what will give you comfort in the fact that you are not delusional.

The cold truth is that the ISI isn't the best secret service in the world and you don't need to be a spook to know that. But instead of arguing, how about you highlight some of the major roles the ISI have played e.g. involvement in Soviet war, etc.

That will strengthen your argument more than any chest-beating will.
 
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only want to say that Pakistan is still on the map of the world because of few factors, and ISI is one the most important factor in this case.. this department is the oxygen for Pakistan.
 
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Who are you discussing this with? If it's indians, don't even bother. If it's westerners, don't bother again.

Quoted for the truth. Anything sensible you say regarding Pakistan will be blanked out as :blah::blah::blah::blah:... Show's their maturity really!
 
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1. As far as ISI competence goes, here's the best way to look at it. Pakistan is facing infinitely more terrorist plots than any other countries. ISI tends to track and report most of them to the police/army. It's police/army's job from there to stop them.

I agree. ISI is doing good job in this regard.

On an external level, look how much noise is being made about the ISI. That's one way to look at it. If a lot of noise is being made about a certain intelligence group, you can bet your life it's most likely doing a pretty good job.

I disagree. Lesser the noise about an intelligence agency, better is the performance of it. One of the basic rule for any such organization is to keep themselevs in dark.

2. As far as Indian involvement goes, there is no public evidence against India that we can call concrete - just like all recent allegations against ISI. What I can assure you is that ISI has enough evidence against India and India is deeply involved in supporting TTP and BLA and has hand in a large number of terrorist attacks in the last few years.

Don't you think your statement is contradictory in nature. On one hand, you are saying there is not enough evidence of Indian hand, on the other hand you are quite "sure" India is doing dirty job. It defies logic to me.

Pakistan, however, is being pressured/threatened by the US to not go public with the evidence. It's completely against US interests to have that happen. The current government is not too willing to deal with the problem either.

That may be the case. However there is possibility you really don't have much against India. (This is just one of possibilities.)

3. Indian influence on Afghan intelligence - well that's like asking grass is green or sky is blue. The Afghan state is ran by non-Pashtun, who are vehemently pro-India and anti-Pakistan. We all know about amrullah saleh - he was previous chief of Afghan intelligence and was heavily pro-India/anti-Pakistan.

Well....India has certainly infuence over Afghanistan. But this is not the point. USA and Pakistan itself are equal players there. Issue is, whoever is not suited to Pakistani interests, is dubbed as pro-India.

One of the articles on guardian which was mainly talking about wikileaks also talked about how Afghan Intelligence wants to see an ISI agent under every rock.

Same wikileaks says about ISI as well. I agree wikileaks are not too credible but then so does your statement.

Remember few things about debating. If someone makes a certain claim, unless the claim is obvious or well known, do ask for a source. Then after that, the source can be questioned and what not based on what information it is providing and how the source got the information.

Agreed. However this again contradict Indian-hand theory. It is certainly not obvious by any angle.

A lot of times you won't be able to support your arguments since there will be a lack of serious evidence to support your claims. But they will also be in the that position at one time or another. I can guarantee you that they will almost certainly raise the lack of proof and not take your argument seriously. You should do the exact same when they have no proof for their claims either.

Agreed.

Classic example of the above: Indians demonized and vehemently attacked Pakistanis (and still do) for believing in claims that India is supporting terrorism in Pakistan without any proof. They called us conspiracy theorists, head buried in sand, irrational, illogical, and what not. Now they make claims without any evidence so I call them on that and use the same language they used on us. See how tables turn.

Gross generalization to say it politely.
 
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I agree. ISI is doing good job in this regard.



I disagree. Lesser the noise about an intelligence agency, better is the performance of it. One of the basic rule for any such organization is to keep themselevs in dark.



Don't you think your statement is contradictory in nature. On one hand, you are saying there is not enough evidence of Indian hand, on the other hand you are quite "sure" India is doing dirty job. It defies logic to me.



That may be the case. However there is possibility you really don't have much against India. (This is just one of possibilities.)



Well....India has certainly infuence over Afghanistan. But this is not the point. USA and Pakistan itself are equal players there. Issue is, whoever is not suited to Pakistani interests, is dubbed as pro-India.



Same wikileaks says about ISI as well. I agree wikileaks are not too credible but then so does your statement.



Agreed. However this again contradict Indian-hand theory. It is certainly not obvious by any angle.



Agreed.



Gross generalization to say it politely.

Well I did not really want to get a debate started but I will answer some of your points.

1. As the evidence against India goes, what I stated was that there is no evidence in public. There is evidence being held by ISI but US is pressuring us to not release it. So there's no contradiction anywhere. I will not go into this more as this normally goes into a really long debate, which I have done several times, and I don't have the patience for that anymore.

2. As far as noise against ISI goes - and your point that the less noise being made the better - well not necessarily. The only reason why there is small noise being made about, say, RAW, is because major global powers have interests that do not clash with whatever activities RAW is pursuing. As soon as their interests clash, there could be problems in store for RAW.

You normally have to look at how much noise your enemy is making against your intelligence, to put it in other words.

I will throw in a caveat though. Remember Iraq war? Lot of noise being made but nothing there? Propaganda/Information warfare can also create the noise that I was discussing above. In that case, obviously that noise does not reflect an intelligence agencies' strength.

In short, there is no clear cut way of seeing how good an intelligence agency is. That's why you see most analysts saying that these lists are pointless. It's only for the consumption of the public.

I will respond to rest when I come back home.
 
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Alee, it is very important that you research and understand your view points on your nation and how our national agencies/departments are working. It is always important to do so, contrary to a few comments here, to not know such things is irresponsible, shows a lack of self-care and self-preservation. Your question is a valid one and you should actively read up and maintain view points/opinions on key Pakistani issues.

We are always ambassadors of Pakistan, what we say and do have direct effects on our country, our community and one another let alone people of other affiliations.

Also, as a side note, you should try to learn and know these points for yourself, not to win petty arguments with strangers especially those with an ''angle'', bias or stirring the pot; it is always good to have a reply. Know them because you are a Pakistani and its your job to always be an ambassador of Pakistan no matter who you are. Also, there is right time to discuss and a wrong time to discuss, and I do agree it very important to silent critics at times, this is something we all should be doing. Its also important to know and keep the spirit alive in our hearts, we dont need to show it on our sleeves except maybe on Pakistan Day and on obvious important occasions :)

In fact, come to think of it, we should ALL try to learn as much as we can about aspects of Pakistan.

Best of luck in your endeavour!

a few points about your que:

ISI is one of the if not the best intelligence agencies in the world; hence the continued negative propoganda and attempts to negate it. (The CIA worked alongside the ISA during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and very well how well developed and capable it is)

British, German, Russian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Chinese, Iranian even Israel (Mossad) have all given praises to operative capacity of the ISI.

This intelligence agency, single handedly trained and coordinated the downfall of the then world power Soviet Union without using a ''modern army''.

It is facing a tremendous callenge today with the concerted efforts of several intelligence agencies and terrorist organizations who use human sacrifices/Suicide attacks to kill and maim innocent men, women and children. Such attacks are inherently difficult and would bring any intelligence agency let alone society to a standstill. Pakistan and her people are resilient and are overcoming these hurdles. It is important for us to stand by the ISI in this time of need.

So why all the fuss about ISI, if they can take down the largest country in the world and train/coordinate a refugees to combat a professionally trained army and succeed... some people could have a problem with that.

Pakistan as an agricultural based country is still at par statistically with some of the poorest countries in the world and is a developing nation that is still entering the modern industrial era yet manages to surprise everyone despite being designated a ''poor'' country.

The ISI is at the forefront and protects the interest of Pakistan in all spheres, there is an active campaign to spread ''rumors'', conspiracy theories and propoganda against it, but pay no attention to it, the fact that Pakistan's enemies are doing this, shows that they are desperate, and that the ISI is doing its job well. The experience, expertise, training and operational capability of Pakistan's intelligence agency puts it in a class of its own with few comparisons.

The ISI has trained and worked alongside many of the worlds big intelligence agencies and they know exactly what they are dealing with. There is no comparison in the region. They are uncovering the layers of indian sponsoring of terrorist groups like the Taliban (TTP) and other murderous militas via their sponsors in the indian consulates along our border and RAW centres in india itself. Their exposing of the indian currency, operative plans, indian gurkha advisers, intercepted communications and logistical devices, indian origin weoponry in the hands of the Taliban and other terrorist groups in Balochistan. They are also working to uncover the various layers of espionage and double agents working along the Afghan frontier in doing so protecting to the lives of the Pakistani, American, ISAF and Afghan civilians. It seems the Great Game has been afoot again and this time its more complicated. We need to keep our vigil.

Also, like any functionary, there will be success stories and there may also be unsuccessful stories. You should keep that in mind with any research and always read things with ''a grain of salt''. So while the ISI record may not be flawless, in comparison to world intelligence agencies it is definately in the top ranks, and within the region, there is no organization that even come close to it.

Good luck in your endeavour
 
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