Navy to buy seven submarines

[IceCold]

this is Bull***! and a good news at the same time!

corrupt mafia government at work again!

good news that finally PN has shown interest in purchasing 8 submarines and bad news that 10% dream has come true. expect kick backs in high ranks and gov officials to get the inferior tech deal win over a high tech "Type-214". Its not the germans who are causing harm, they have agreed to 5-10 year lone but its the GOP that does not want it because they dont get profit for this.

You know Growler you and i once had a long rather very rough debate when i said i would only believe the deal to be active once the first steel is cut for the making of U boats meant for Pakistan not otherwise. This is what i was afraid of when i 1st stated my opinion, corruption, kick backs always come into play and specially when Mr 10 is the leader. History has repeated itself.
What a shame a good deal gone down the toilet drain because few people does not seem to have enough. What a loss to the nation.

 

[Mercenary]

I prefer Pakistan acquire the German Subs. Germans make some of the best weaponry in the world. Pakistan need to have a solid deterrent to any naval blockade in the future by India's rapidly growing Navy.

Can't we get USA to give us the money so that we can buy these Subs?

I am also wondering how India will react to this

Remember in 1995, when Pakistan got 320 Tanks from Ukraine and Indian High Command after recovering from this shock purchases 1,200 T-90 Tanks from Russia.

 

[Tomahawk]

this is Bull***! and a good news at the same time!

corrupt mafia government at work again!

good news that finally PN has shown interest in purchasing 8 submarines and bad news that 10% dream has come true. expect kick backs in high ranks and gov officials to get the inferior tech deal win over a high tech "Type-214". Its not the germans who are causing harm, they have agreed to 5-10 year lone but its the GOP that does not want it because they dont get profit for this.

You know Growler you and i once had a long rather very rough debate when i said i would only believe the deal to be active once the first steel is cut for the making of U boats meant for Pakistan not otherwise. This is what i was afraid of when i 1st stated my opinion, corruption, kick backs always come into play and specially when Mr 10 is the leader. History has repeated itself.
What a shame a good deal gone down the toilet drain because few people does not seem to have enough. What a loss to the nation.

You both are absolutely right.
Its a shame that government is trying its best that defense related deals are done according to their desires and likings.

 

[Adios Amigo]

I prefer Pakistan acquire the German Subs. Germans make some of the best weaponry in the world. Pakistan need to have a solid deterrent to any naval blockade in the future by India's rapidly growing Navy.

Can't we get USA to give us the money so that we can buy these Subs?

I am also wondering how India will react to this

Remember in 1995, when Pakistan got 320 Tanks from Ukraine and Indian High Command after recovering from this shock purchases 1,200 T-90 Tanks from Russia.

Its fact that U-214 is/should be the most preferable.

I don't think so its because of money, otherwise we would also be paying hard cash to French and Chinese.

The obvious reasons for which, if it is missed out are, the corrupt Government, and the Indian factor.

 

[Tomahawk]

^^i think it will be either chinese or french - not both!

Well lets see what sort of deal we end up with.
If PN is going for 7 subs which is excellent news, then in my opinion the best thing would be:
3 U-214 & 4 Yuan Class; but now that chance is really slim.

As per current situation high probability would be of 3 Marlin & 4 Yuan as quoted by DAWN.

Sources maintained that Islamabad is deeply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional versions in a bid to meet any challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India
2010-03-26 12:50:00



The Pakistan Navy is likely to acquire seven 'conventional' submarines and is in discussions with China and France for finalising the deal.

According to sources, negotiations are also on with Germany to purchase three U-214 type submarines.

Sources within the Pakistan Navy said that a high level naval delegation would be visiting France next week to finalise the deal with French DCN Company for Marline submarines.

Islamabad is deeply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.

It is pertinent to mention here that a German company-HDW had drawn up technical specifications for three U-214 submarines, and a billion dollar contract was almost finalised, but the deal could not materialise due to some unknown reasons. (ANI)

 

[Aamir Hussain]

An observation:

In the recent past, all of the PN submarines were French (the three Daphne's - phased out, the two Agosta 70's and the three Agosta 90B's). Crews are trained on the "French" philosophy of submarine operations peculiar to French subs. Furthermore, the spares logistics and ordering were of the same genre.

The maintenance of the Agosta's uses the same type of training and methodology for maint. Furthermore, our DefLog and PN people have a good relationship with DCN staff at working level.

On top of this we can send our submariners to French training schools and academies where our officers and ratings would not be totally unfamiliar with the jargon and operational systems employed by the French.

The icing on the cake and the clincher in the past for the French was the agreement to assemble the sub in Pakistan.

Notwithstanding the above scenario, it is quite obvious that however good the German sub. is, we cannot endlessly wait for it to come to Pakistani waters (As aptly put across by one of our over enthusiastic friends on the forum -- we need to put the "Down Payment" now so we can receive them in a realistic time frame before our A70's go off line).

It is also a good opportunity for us to go into the project at the design stage and get the improvements we want. Please remember that we had a similar experience with the air launched Exocet and the French. We ended up making windfall profits off the royalty because of the success of the weapon in the Falklands conflict. We actually paid for the development (it was a small portion) of the Air launched version.

Furthermore, we have the assembly facilities and we can negotiate the same type of agreement whereby we can assemble/partially produce the French sub here.

Knowing the "French Way" of doing things is an advantage here. If we know that they charge a little bit higher for spares etc -- we can always work around this through a local mfg. of spares offset agreement. The trick is to aggressively negotiate a mutually benefitting agreement. We already have a learning curve advantage with the French.

Time is of essence here my friends!!!

 

[Speeder 2]

Its fact that U-214 is/should be the most preferable.

I don't think so its because of money, otherwise we would also be paying hard cash to French and Chinese.

The obvious reasons for which, if it is missed out are, the corrupt Government, and the Indian factor.

Is there a possibility that the Germans/NATO are afraid of leak of some sensitive tech to China? It sounds more reasonable to me as U-214 is the top of the line.

 

[mhacsan]

@Growler

Lets look at the other side of coin shell we?

i understand your point of view about GOP and military Brass being corrupt around & kick backs types of stuff, this is very much on the cards.

but what i think, this time around french has more on offer which is pushing GOP and Military brass to think twice which way they gonna go. they dont want U boats to let go but what merlins comes with is a question to be answered? plus they dont want china to be upset at the same time.

i think some of the reasons are as follows

1) Merlin Class - Pak can Customized
2) Nuclear Deal
3) advance makeup for JF17
4) Plus cooperation in Defence Projects. etc

my point of view. though i dont support PPP any way.

 

[gowthamraj]

why all pak members dissappointed with marlin. . it is way head than u-series and step ahead than IN scorpene. . . i personally like marlin in indian navy rather than u-boats. . .i eagerly waiting for both govt's decision. .(IN also issued global tender which include these two)

 

[TaimiKhan]

why all pak members dissappointed with marlin. . it is way head than u-series and step ahead than IN scorpene. . . i personally like marlin in indian navy rather than u-boats. . .i eagerly waiting for both govt's decision. .(IN also issued global tender which include these two)

Problem is Merlin is on the drawing board, no practical sub exists and it may get very late as nothing of it exists practically.

 

[gowthamraj]

@taimikhan . . merlin is next level to the scorpene or severally upgraded scorpene . .so it only take 5 years for completion. . if it built in it pakistan it finish in 2016(same time frame that u-boats give) it have cutting-edge tech. . it great move by PN. . but i think IN order go for russian

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

i guess the german subs are the best , the type 214 is by far technologically advance than those of French and Chinese ..!

 

[araz]

This reminds me of Jliu who3-4 yrs ago predicted that this might happen.I think personally that to go for a paper sub is sheer lunacy although, again what are we getting in the package, and how ha it been sweetened technologically is something to be seen.
Araz

 

[mughaljee]

Pakistan needs to deal carefully with France and negotiate all future upgrade prices, if possible include it in contract as well.

I am in favor of U-214