My take on the recent escalation in Kashmir and the Long-march. Thougts?

[gotti]

America and Pakistan have been military partners (directly) for over a decade, coordinating military maneuvers and strategies as if they are in sync.

This is the time to decimate the Russia-India alliance by taking some serious diplomatic steps.

It is in America's interest to cement a place in all Pakistanis' hearts by openly and unequivocally supporting Pakistan on the Kashmir issue.

All across the Muslim world (and the world, in general), Bush was hated, faced protests, burning of effigies and even greeted by a shoe in some places but in Albania, he was cheered on due to his stance on Kosovo.

If America wants to replace China, it has the best opportunity especially now, given that India has sided with Putin, which means Pakistani and American interests are aligned in this regard.

Also, the same can be said vis-a-vis Iran and Afghanistan (they can host their troops for China's containment if they choose to go against the so called "zero-option". They can do it just like in Saudi Arabia while respecting the local laws and customs that aren't any different in the two countries, Saudi and Afghanistan).

If the Indians don't give up Kashmir, we (Pakistanis amd Americans) should take it diplomatically like Kosovo and threaten them with unrest and protests like Tibet in China. The rape protests are a great example of shutting Delhi down.

The ex-soviet states and their colour revolutions like Orange should be exploited in India through the use of Sikhs, Tamils and the slogan of Azad Deccan should also keep the South Block in check, or, even go as far as to rid the subcontinent of the Indian menace like Yugoslavia in Europe and USSR before it.

I say carve 10 states out of India and put Manmohan in the history books like Tito. NATO was instrumental in doing that before, we can do that now as they are already here in the Hindu Kush.

China wouldn't mind as a rising Russia is also a threat while India had always been a menace. It will work!

In the end, the long march should be representative of a moderate government in place, if there is a move made to attack or invade Iran, from Pakistan. The reason it would only make sense to do so through a moderate government in power is that the individuals (MQM and Qadri) involved are not only acceptable to the West but also those sections of society that have a soft-corner for Iran.

Pakistan provided land and it's territory to dismantle and remove an extremist regime in Afghanistan, doing the same in Iran should be palatable.

Otherwise, if Pakistan is to stay away from America, then it would lose it's "special status" in the Russian-Chinese camp, as it is clear that Putin will always favor India given his historic position in the KGB.

Also, without Pakistan, America is doomed in the region as India, China, Iran, CIS and Russia are all going to be in one camp. America has no choice except to side with Pakistan and Pakistan, on the other hand, will need to benefit from it's potential status as the Israel of Central and South Asia. Forget the past and look at the benefits and interests of today - they are aligned - with America.

I also don't see China having a problem, as I've mentioned above, given the threat of Russian influence, especially in the Golden triangle states, and it will prefer the focus shifted from it for a few years, and the Pacific-shift, delayed or not focused on, as much. They already prefer to have secure borders with India, which is why the PLA chief ran to India after the Indians declined the Western bids (primarily due to the South Block's historic NAM stance).

On the other hand, Indians didn't have the capacity to do America's bidding in the region vis-a-vis China as they need to build an economy to support the poorest population in the world half of whom never saw power or sanitation.

India could have benefited from a relation with the West and sided with them against Libya and Syria, but it was hesitant, diplomatically. It only went against Iran due its own interest vis-a-vis the Nuclear deal with America.

What's more is that, they have millions of their expats hosted in the Gulf countries but even that didn't assist them in making the wise decision of siding with the West and Arabs. The Socialist-bias and the Congress following Nehru's pro-Russian stance has not gone despite benefiting from billions in IT dollars from the West.

But, given it's historical relationship, India made the right choice as Russia is a trusted partner for them, but going against America wasn't smart, either. Putin had to move indoors due to the rape protests similar to the ones started after the self-immolation in Tunisia.

Also, the campaign to malign Indians as "rapists", worldwide is at it's peak. Some Pakistanis find it to be a pay-back for Indians labeling Pakistanis as "terrorists" worldwide and you can already see social media glimmering with the thoughts of being able to malign Indians (NRIs, specifically) by calling them "rapists", just as they were unduly and unjustifiably called "terrorists" with the intent of causing torment and harm.

Your thoughts?

 

[Screambowl]

Pakistan's Parliament need a major change.

 

[Kaniska]

America and Pakistan have been military partners (directly) for over a decade, coordinating military maneuvers and strategies as if they are in sync.

This is the time to decimate the Russia-India alliance by taking some serious diplomatic steps.

It is in America's interest to cement a place in all Pakistanis' hearts by openly and unequivocally supporting Pakistan on the Kashmir issue.

All across the Muslim world (and the world, in general), Bush was hated, faced protests, burning of effigies and even greeted by a shoe in some places but in Albania, he was cheered on due to his stance on Kosovo.

If America wants to replace China, it has the best opportunity especially now, given that India has sided with Putin, which means Pakistani and American interests are aligned in this regard.

Also, the same can be said vis-a-vis Iran and Afghanistan (they can host their troops for China's containment if they choose to go against the so called "zero-option". They can do it just like in Saudi Arabia while respecting the local laws and customs that aren't any different in the two countries, Saudi and Afghanistan).

If the Indians don't give up Kashmir, we (Pakistanis amd Americans) should take it diplomatically like Kosovo and threaten them with unrest and protests like Tibet in China. The rape protests are a great example of shutting Delhi down.

The ex-soviet states and their colour revolutions like Orange should be exploited in India through the use of Sikhs, Tamils and the slogan of Azad Deccan should also keep the South Block in check, or, even go as far as to rid the subcontinent of the Indian menace like Yugoslavia in Europe and USSR before it.

I say carve 10 states out of India and put Manmohan in the history books like Tito. NATO was instrumental in doing that before, we can do that now as they are already here in the Hindu Kush.

China wouldn't mind as a rising Russia is also a threat while India had always been a menace. It will work!

In the end, the long march should be representative of a moderate government in place, if there is a move made to attack or invade Iran, from Pakistan. The reason it would only make sense to do so through a moderate government in power is that the individuals (MQM and Qadri) involved are not only acceptable to the West but also those sections of society that have a soft-corner for Iran.

Pakistan provided land and it's territory to dismantle and remove an extremist regime in Afghanistan, doing the same in Iran should be palatable.

Otherwise, if Pakistan is to stay away from America, then it would lose it's "special status" in the Russian-Chinese camp, as it is clear that Putin will always favor India given his historic position in the KGB.

Also, without Pakistan, America is doomed in the region as India, China, Iran, CIS and Russia are all going to be in one camp. America has no choice except to side with Pakistan and Pakistan, on the other hand, will need to benefit from it's potential status as the Israel of Central and South Asia. Forget the past and look at the benefits and interests of today - they are aligned - with America.

I also don't see China having a problem, as I've mentioned above, given the threat of Russian influence, especially in the Golden triangle states, and it will prefer the focus shifted from it for a few years, and the Pacific-shift, delayed or not focused on, as much. They already prefer to have secure borders with India, which is why the PLA chief ran to India after the Indians declined the Western bids (primarily due to the South Block's historic NAM stance).

On the other hand, Indians didn't have the capacity to do America's bidding in the region vis-a-vis China as they need to build an economy to support the poorest population in the world half of whom never saw power or sanitation.

India could have benefited from a relation with the West and sided with them against Libya and Syria, but it was hesitant, diplomatically. It only went against Iran due its own interest vis-a-vis the Nuclear deal with America.

What's more is that, they have millions of their expats hosted in the Gulf countries but even that didn't assist them in making the wise decision of siding with the West and Arabs. The Socialist-bias and the Congress following Nehru's pro-Russian stance has not gone despite benefiting from billions in IT dollars from the West.

But, given it's historical relationship, India made the right choice as Russia is a trusted partner for them, but going against America wasn't smart, either. Putin had to move indoors due to the rape protests similar to the ones started after the self-immolation in Tunisia.

Also, the campaign to malign Indians as "rapists", worldwide is at it's peak. Some Pakistanis find it to be a pay-back for Indians labeling Pakistanis as "terrorists" worldwide and you can already see social media glimmering with the thoughts of being able to malign Indians (NRIs, specifically) by calling them "rapists", just as they were unduly and unjustifiably called "terrorists" with the intent of causing torment and harm.

Your thoughts?

So why donot you attack and wage a frontal war???To whom you are waiting for???

 

[gotti]

So why donot you attack and wage a frontal war???To whom you are waiting for???

I precisely mentioned "diplomatic" as with Kosovo. Not sure if you read it or just thought it was some type of invitation to war or incitement of doing so forthwith.

Emotional replies that are not well-thought out don't necessarily contribute to a healthy and fruitful conversation given that I was hoping for useful thoughts from the beginning and not a gangster, street-like reply in which the thug goes, "come outside, if you have b.alls".

Hopefully, in our future conversations or your future replies, you can cut down the adrenaline and be more profound or thought-provoking.

my thoughts "Gotti got good weed" - Enjoy!

I was invited here to this forum with the claim that there would be actual educated conversations and not just random troll-like replies from Black Ops II gamers, weed-heads or the combinations of the two.

 

[funtoosh]

pakistan can never do anything frontal.. they always need someone else to do their job for them.
they sit and talk a lot and try to get everything without working for it or thru unethical means

 

[third eye]

Your thoughts?

A meandering compilation of thoughts & imagination in over drive with little or no relevance to ground realities.

A fair attempt.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

Both sides are essentially in a shoving match if Pakistan had not fired on Indian posts first the Indians wouldn't have retaliated the way they did. Of course in order to save face Pakistan needs to avenge the KIA by staging a raid of their own which prompts another Indian response. I'm sure that both nations are in touch diplomatically.

 

[Mech]

Indians as "rapists" ? How many international news magazines read ? Taliban times dont count.

Its funny you're prepared to take a dump on your "higher that a pebble , deeper than a puddle" friendship with China as well.

My opinion ? That's some good weed bro.

 

[gotti]

A meandering compilation of thoughts & imagination in over drive with little or no relevance to ground realities.

A fair attempt.

With absolute no reason or point raised as to what was wrong, inaccurate, unconnected. But then again, the long walk along the yamuna does get one tired, doesn't it?

Maybe next time, you can reply based on countering facts or statements with the same methodology and use a point by point reply. Or, you can continue mystical replies but since we cannot see through your third eye, it would be better if you get something written down and posted instead of just "dismissing" what is said based on visions from the same source.

 

[KRAIT]

First take care of your country first. Think of dividing India later.

Karachi is burning, Balochistan is burning, tribal belt is burning, terrorism on rise, economy down the drain, religious extremism at all time high, sectarian violence all around, corruption every where and you think you need to focus on India.

The enemy is within your country. Even Pakistan Army said that. Don't believe us, at least believe them.

I don't have to worry as long as these people keep talking and destroy their own country.

 

[MilSpec]

America and Pakistan have been military partners (directly) for over a decade, coordinating military maneuvers and strategies as if they are in sync.

Fact check, over nearly 5 decades and the cascading effect of ineffective policies and lack of foresight is evident from the relationship. OBL raids, constant drone attacks and diplomatic flogging of pakistan is clear from it.

This is the time to decimate the Russia-India alliance by taking some serious diplomatic steps.

Indo-russia alliance has been prevalent since the 60's and china/pakistan/US haven't been able to India from it even when India's global position was nearly 10 times weaker from what it's today. Suggesting any control over bilateral issue of Indo-russia by nondescript player like pakistan is at-most laughable.

It is in America's interest to cement a place in all Pakistanis' hearts by openly and unequivocally supporting Pakistan on the Kashmir issue.

Hence they haven't done it in past 65 years, wonders which hearts US wants to publically cement it's position in.

All across the Muslim world (and the world, in general), Bush was hated, faced protests, burning of effigies and even greeted by a shoe in some places but in Albania, he was cheered on due to his stance on Kosovo.

If America wants to replace China, it has the best opportunity especially now, given that India has sided with Putin, which means Pakistani and American interests are aligned in this regard.

How dumb is it for you to claim india has sided with Putin, India has always and will always keep russian interests in a special place. I guess you have woken from rip wan winkle pahse now to realize Indo-Russo strategic confluence

Also, the same can be said vis-a-vis Iran and Afghanistan (they can host their troops for China's containment if they choose to go against the so called "zero-option". They can do it just like in Saudi Arabia while respecting the local laws and customs that aren't any different in the two countries, Saudi and Afghanistan).

If the Indians don't give up Kashmir, we (Pakistanis amd Americans) should take it diplomatically like Kosovo and threaten them with unrest and protests like Tibet in China. The rape protests are a great example of shutting Delhi down.

Now the above statement directly implies the sham of Kashmir movement being of any indigenous revolution proactively being marketed by pakistan for three decades now

The ex-soviet states and their colour revolutions like Orange should be exploited in India through the use of Sikhs, Tamils and the slogan of Azad Deccan should also keep the South Block in check, or, even go as far as to rid the subcontinent of the Indian menace like Yugoslavia in Europe and USSR before it.

Deccan plateau consist of Maharashtra, madhya pradesh parts of UP, Karnataka, all regions that vehemently fought british occupation to bring about the independence of India. Without understanding even the origins of Yugoslavian problems and their struggle and extrapolating to a maoist insurgency shows the disdain for informed logic in your argument. The maost problem in india arises from nexus of socio-economic imbalance and criminalized politics rather than any issues with nationalism.

I say carve 10 states out of India and put Manmohan in the history books like Tito. NATO was instrumental in doing that before, we can do that now as they are already here in the Hindu Kush.

Please do go and visit the actions of Tito and then compare the same to manmohan singh, if you do find any similarities do comeback with them. As far as division of India goes, it's nothing but wet dream. Again breaking of Yogoslavia is not attributed to nato but to Milosevic Slobodan actions and the snowballing effect that led to the breakup. Do revisit the hitory.

China wouldn't mind as a rising Russia is also a threat while India had always been a menace. It will work!

Russia's power projection in it's own region doesn't depend on India, hence it's a logic fail. Apart from that do understand that russia still maintains military bases across the Commonwealth of Independent States

In the end, the long march should be representative of a moderate government in place, if there is a move made to attack or invade Iran, from Pakistan. The reason it would only make sense to do so through a moderate government in power is that the individuals (MQM and Qadri) involved are not only acceptable to the West but also those sections of society that have a soft-corner for Iran.

Dissolution to long march of pakistan seems to be a long long jump, US forces have firm base in afganistan, doesn't make any sense of moving to pakistan as mil base anyways.

Pakistan provided land and it's territory to dismantle and remove an extremist regime in Afghanistan, doing the same in Iran should be palatable.

It is beyond imagination of any sane headed mind comparing the taliban government to the establishment f Iran. if nothing it just reeks of anti-Shia sentiment.

Otherwise, if Pakistan is to stay away from America, then it would lose it's "special status" in the Russian-Chinese camp, as it is clear that Putin will always favor India given his historic position in the KGB.

WTF?

Also, without Pakistan, America is doomed in the region as India, China, Iran, CIS and Russia are all going to be in one camp. America has no choice except to side with Pakistan and Pakistan, on the other hand, will need to benefit from it's potential status as the Israel of Central and South Asia. Forget the past and look at the benefits and interests of today - they are aligned - with America.

The most unfortunate syndrome by most pakistanis on the forum is the inability to digest the fact that "India's foreign policy is not for sale, our policy has and will remain india first", We dont give a crap about anyone but us. We wont be used by any foreign nation US or any one else to contain anyone. Our first and foremost role is to secure our security and long term objectives, which means engaging various powers in the prescribed fashion to gain needed objectives. This is not some great game where there needs to be camps of power blocs, We dont see any such developments, unfortunately if something like this occurs we stay Non-alligned instead of jumping in laps of country that offers military aid.

I also don't see China having a problem, as I've mentioned above, given the threat of Russian influence, especially in the Golden triangle states, and it will prefer the focus shifted from it for a few years, and the Pacific-shift, delayed or not focused on, as much. They already prefer to have secure borders with India, which is why the PLA chief ran to India after the Indians declined the Western bids (primarily due to the South Block's historic NAM stance).

Chinese doctrine is hyped more aggressive by pakistanis 10 folds that it actually is. China is more responsible state than it is assumed to be to deliberately attracting flak from the western states which is fueling its rise to prominence.

On the other hand, Indians didn't have the capacity to do America's bidding in the region vis-a-vis China as they need to build an economy to support the poorest population in the world half of whom never saw power or sanitation.

Objectivity of your analysis is evident by your rhetoric.. As i said India got its freedom after huge sacrifices, our national policies are not for sale unlike pakistan. We dont sell our national interests for few military jets of aid money. As simple as that.

India could have benefited from a relation with the West and sided with them against Libya and Syria, but it was hesitant, diplomatically. It only went against Iran due its own interest vis-a-vis the Nuclear deal with America.

Again We are an independent country which secures our national interest first and does it's bidding on international forums based on our informed opinions, we aren't lapdogs which does are hired guns for highest bidders.

What's more is that, they have millions of their expats hosted in the Gulf countries but even that didn't assist them in making the wise decision of siding with the West and Arabs. The Socialist-bias and the Congress following Nehru's pro-Russian stance has not gone despite benefiting from billions in IT dollars from the West.

Logic fail buddy!

But, given it's historical relationship, India made the right choice as Russia is a trusted partner for them, but going against America wasn't smart, either. Putin had to move indoors due to the rape protests similar to the ones started after the self-immolation in Tunisia.

Confusing social and national security issues here .. make up your mind!

Also, the campaign to malign Indians as "rapists", worldwide is at it's peak. Some Pakistanis find it to be a pay-back for Indians labeling Pakistanis as "terrorists" worldwide and you can already see social media glimmering with the thoughts of being able to malign Indians (NRIs, specifically) by calling them "rapists", just as they were unduly and unjustifiably called "terrorists" with the intent of causing torment and harm.

Just laughable, actions of few individuals dubs the entire country as "rapists".

Your thoughts?

The objective reply to the haphazardly constructed rhetoric which dwells of very weakly composed mishmash of geo-politics, bilateral strategic relations and social justice, is reminiscent of rhetoric usually constructed by self proclaimed amateurish internet analysts (or under the effect of Tetrahydrocannabinol), hence my first response was actually very objective as i didn't want to beat sense onto an illogical discourse.

 

[KRAIT]

@sandy_3126

No Sandy No, don't whip someone like this. Let him enjoy his fantasies.

Dammit you ruined it.

@gotti Can you tell me how you will get rid of your internal problems ?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Also, without Pakistan, America is doomed in the region as India, China, Iran, CIS and Russia are all going to be in one camp. America has no choice except to side with Pakistan and Pakistan, on the other hand, will need to benefit from it's potential status as the Israel of Central and South Asia. Forget the past and look at the benefits and interests of today - they are aligned - with America.

So you think that China-Russia-Central Asia-Iran-India are all going to be in one camp, and you would like Pakistan to join with America in the opposite camp?

And you want to be America's "Israel" of South Asia?

I don't even... what?

 

[gotti]

Indians as "rapists" ? How many international news magazines read ? Taliban times dont count.

Its funny you're prepared to take a dump on your "higher that a pebble , deeper than a puddle" friendship with China as well.

My opinion ? That's some good weed bro.

Saw quite a few articles about rape in Delhi in international newspapers like NYT, Washington Post and cable news like CNN, BBC, etc. And, the culture of rape being very common in India in all major newspapers of other countries was very hard to miss.

Not sure if India's version of Russia Today and Iran's PressTV, NDTV, bothered to cover it?

I guess they were busy pointing out the issues of poverty in Pakistan and how great India is with more than half of its population never having access to power (electricity), sanitation or even food.

Also, haven't ever come across a single article stating that the Taliban culture in Pakistan hasn't been a constant struggle that Pakistanis and their forces aren't dealing with. Although, Red Herrings are not worthy of a reply, this was precisely important to respond to as the Indian rape problem is apparently not even an issue for the Indians as they find Pakistan or even Saudi Arabian pedophile (no rape there) a bigger concern for their nation.

The point still stands. There is a culture of rape in India, women are sexually harassed and molested with impunity along with the disturbing fact that another girl has been gang raped in the whereabouts of Delhi (but these are only reported cases).

Also, as I made clear in the post that China wouldn't mind but what's ironic is that, you actually did take a dump on America after freeloading from their outsourced jobs and doing their work for dirt-cheep (kind of like slaves on cotton farms the century before).

I wonder what the "shining" economy will be like when the jobs from Bangalore are brought back to Boston, where they actually belong?

Not saying that you can't trust Indians but what they did with America, getting the nuclear deal, leeching IT dollars and trying to gain a reputation through media, and in return, not letting Western nations get the bids for the defense contract and outright, siding with the Russians by signing a defense deal was not necessarily a testament to loyalty, was it?

In the end, on China, I find it hilarious that Indians were really excited about thinking that they can even get America's super-power status outsourced to themselves and step up to China. When they actually drew up plans, Deepak Kapoor (the chief before the newer ones) compared the two countries and disclosed the reality to the Indian media, some Indians went "nah, we'll skip China, we were always South Asian rivals, weren't we?"

Still, unfortunately for them, most of them paid no heed to his warning about where India actually stands and kept ranting about the problems in Pakistan like you are now. (as if that somehow negates any issue India can ever have).

But, it wasn't until the world history's biggest blackout that the Indians finally eulogized the artist formerly known as Superpower India in a piece titled "Superpower India, RIP".

If we are talking about weed, euphoria or confusion then we must be talking about South Block and Indian foreign policy but it isn't drugs, is it?

It is most likely just the old geezers, grandpa diapers and farts that run the show there, not the Hari Krishna hippies like Washington now has in the form of the lady from Hawaii. (funny how you thought she was Indian, too)

Those rusty old men in lungis made one of the most idiotic mistakes of the 21st century by siding with Putin's rising Russia (which is a threat to both China and America who are out like wolves dividing the world amongst themselves and have no mood to watch the well awaited sequel, title "the return of the Czar" alongside you).

 

[KRAIT]

@gotti Don't your country have these problems ?

Do you want to improve your country or bash India ?

It seems latter.