Muslims Recoil at a French Proposal to Change the Quran

[hussain0216]

Quran stays the same...

Bible has changed, Torah has changed, Bhaga Vida or whatever you call it isnt worth the paper its written on.

But the Quran stays the same, thats the whole point

21st century saw many countries, religions (Europe, RSS Hindutva) are directly confronting Islam. Even Internet can be considered the biggest enemy of Islam (Ali Sina's book, Ibn Warraq's as examples). Earlier, criticizing Koran and Islam deemed death penalty.. Murtad ki sazaa mout. But, now, many Muslims are questioning religion, many are leaving Islam, many are continuing as Muslims despite being atheists due to living in orthodox Muslim societies. Some converts to Protestant churches. The root is shaken. The belief of the infallibility of Allahu is being questioned. This stand true for other religions also, though. Ultimately, world will move to a new religion - consumerism and western values.

We are quite confident Islam will spread and win out

 

[Solomon2]

‘Go to Hell!’ Egypt Responds to French Call to Revise Koran

BY RAYMOND IBRAHIM MAY 3, 2018

Recently I explained how, by Muslims’ own (inadvertent) logic, various Koran verses stand to be banned on the basis that they defame and incite violence against non-Muslims. Two days later, the French newspaper Le Monde published a letter signed by some 300 French public figures across party lines, including former president Nicolas Sarkozy. In it, they “ask that the verses of the Qur'an calling for the killing and punishment of Jews, Christians and unbelievers be obsoleted by theological authorities.”

Titled “Manifesto Against the New Anti-Semitism,” the signed letter focuses especially on the rise of Muslim violence against France’s Jewish minority:

French Jews are 25 times more likely to be attacked than their fellow Muslims. 10% of the Jewish citizens of Ile-de-France -- that is to say about 50,000 people -- were recently forced to move because they were no longer safe in some cities and because their children could not attend the schools of the Republic anymore. This is a low-noise ethnic cleansing …​

Of course, the notion that Muslims will willingly strike out certain verses from the Koran because they upset or threaten infidels is a nonstarter.

From a Muslim perspective, because the Koran is Allah’s word, it cannot be tampered with or altered in any way. If Sarkozy, et al made these claims in certain Muslim countries, they would either be incarcerated on blasphemy charges or killed outright.

But while more forthright Muslims base their rejection of the French call on this simple fact, those more skilled in “dialoguing” with the West follow a different strategy.

Enter Al Azhar. Located in Cairo and attached to the government of Egypt, it is the Muslim world’s most prestigious “university” (that is, madrassa) and regularly hosts -- and engages in “dialogue” with -- the likes of Barack Obama and Pope Francis. Responding to the French letter, the deputy chief of Al Azhar, Dr. ‘Abbas Shuman, said:

The call from 300 French persons to freeze verses in the Noble Koran, which they claim urges the killing of non-Muslims, is unjustifiable and unacceptable. (emphasis added)​

And if that wasn’t clear enough, he exclaimed:

No to freezing one letter from the Koran -- and those calling for it can go to hell!​

As usual, however, whereas entities such as the Islamic State proudly embrace the fact that the Koran does call for enmity and violence directed against non-Muslims, Al Azhar went into apologetic mode:

For we have no verses that command the killing of others, unless they commit one of the crimes that do earn the death penalty, such as murder, or raising weapons against us. Nor are we responsible for those [e.g., ISIS] who do not correctly understand the verses, who take them at face value without referring to the tafasir [exegeses] of the ulema.​

Perhaps he had forgotten Koran 9:29:

Fight those among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden [i.e., embrace sharia law], and who do not embrace the religion of truth [Islam], until they pay the jizya [extortion money] with willing submissiveness and feel themselves utterly subdued.​

All authoritative exegeses see this verse as enshrining Islam’s “messianic” mission of subjugating infidels by force.

Not only is Allah’s command here rather straightforward in meaning, but for a millennium, Muslims executed it -- and conquered some three-quarters of the original Western world in the process (as recounted in my new book, Sword and Scimitar: Fourteen Centuries of War between Islam and the West).

It is only now, when Muslims are militarily/economically weaker than and vulnerable to the Western world, that claims that such verses don’t really mean what they say have become popular among Muslims.

Especially those involved in “dialogue” with the West.

I have an authoritative Arabic manual called Al-Tarbiya al-Jihadiya fi Daw' al-Kitab wa al-Sunna (“The Jihadi Upbringing in Light of the Koran and Sunna”), written by Dr. Abd al-Aziz bin Nasir al-Jalil. After providing several proofs, he concludes that “jihad is when Muslims wage war on infidels, after having called on them to embrace Islam or at least pay tribute [jizya] and live in submission, and then they refuse.” In other words, Koran 9:29, as it is.

As for Al Azhar’s reliance on the ulema and their exegeses, the book contains terse summaries of the word “jihad” as defined by the four schools of Sunni jurisprudence, which have the final say as to how Islam -- or in this case, jihad -- is articulated:

• 
  
• According to the Hanafis -- the madhhab (school) Egypt follows -- jihad is “extreme and strenuous warfare in the path of Allah, with one's life, wealth, and tongue -- a call to the true religion [Islam] and war to whoever refuses to accept it.”

• According to the Malikis, jihad is “when a Muslim fights an infidel [non-Muslim] in order that Allah's word reigns supreme.”
  
• According to the Shafi'is, jihad is “fiercely fighting infidels.”
  
• And according to the austere Hanbalis, it is “fighting infidels.”
  

Needless to say, fighting infidels in the name of Islam leads to killing infidels -- untold millions over the centuries -- in the name of Islam, which is precisely what Al Azhar denies.

During his dissembling, Al Azhar’s Shuman went so far as to insist:

Those [French] who think that there are [Koran] verses calling for their killing are unaware that those are really verses of peace. All verses that call for fighting are done in the context of self-defense ... and this is a principle that even those calling for the freezing of Koran verses do not dispute. For all religions confirm the right to self-defense.​

Here again is another falsehood. While the Koran does have defensive verses, it has even more offensive verses. As the great Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) explained centuries ago:

In the Muslim community, the holy war [jihad] is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force ... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense ... But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.​

Even so, despite the clear words of the Koran and hadith, and the clear words of the ulema and their tafasir -- to say nothing of the continuum of violence committed against infidels at the hands of Muslims across centuries and continents -- Al Azhar, like all apologists, still insists that it’s all a misunderstanding. Or, as Shuman reiterated in closing:

So let them [the French signatories] understand the book of Allah correctly. But if they rely on their own, mistaken understandings, then let them go -- with their understandings and requests -- to hell!​

 

[takeiteasy]

We are quite confident Islam will spread and win out

Israel, Hindu, Europe, Christians, Atheists are all against Islamofascism. Unlike 20th century, we have internet. Kuffar can also read Koran and hadiths. Kuffar also understands your plans. Kuffar is not animal, they are able to plan against your world domination ideas. So, let's hope we can all, "live and let live". No Hindutva Ummah, No Islamic Ummah, No Christian Ummah.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Since we're talking about hate.......

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.”

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: “Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night. (Talmud)

Aboda Sarah 37a: “A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.”

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: “It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces.”

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: “All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.”

 

[hussain0216]

Israel, Hindu, Europe, Christians, Atheists are all against Islamofascism. Unlike 20th century, we have internet. Kuffar can also read Koran and hadiths. Kuffar also understands your plans. Kuffar is not animal, they are able to plan against your world domination ideas. So, let's hope we can all, "live and let live". No Hindutva Ummah, No Islamic Ummah, No Christian Ummah.

Internet is a two way street, gets islamic information to places it would be difficult to otherwise physically get to..

Even war on terror etc,, person sitting somewhere asks what the problem is, searches for information and islamic sites and Muslims provide it

Its double edged sword..

But like I said out of all the faiths we are quietly confident

 

[El Sidd]

am i allowed to discuss religion?

 

[zip]

Quran stays the same...

Bible has changed, Torah has changed, Bhaga Vida or whatever you call it isnt worth the paper its written on.

But the Quran stays the same, thats the whole point



We are quite confident Islam will spread and win out

You can judge Quran whether it's worth the paper written it on since you know about it, for all other religious Scriptures your knowledge is not good enough..

 

[Solomon2]

Since we're talking about hate.......

...Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: “All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.”

Hate, indeed. You didn't include a source or reference in this highly-distorted condensation of the passage. A close on-line translation of C.H. 348 available from a Jewish source is:

Anyone who steals even on par with a penny’s worth transgressed not stealing and he is obligated to pay, one that steals money of a Jew or who steals money of a non-Jew and one that steals from the great or from the small. Note: a gentile’s mistake, for example to mistake in counting or repaying his loans, is permitted, and provided that he doesn’t know, so that there is no blasphemy. And there are those who say that it is forbidden to mislead him except if he makes the mistake from his own, and then it’s allowed.​

Your other "quotations" can be assumed to be of similar quality so they don't need to be addressed. What clearly DOES need to be addressed is your attempt at avoidance by pretend-citing supposed deficiencies of non-Muslims: you don't have credibility. Shouldn't you be more humble? Don't you think it's your pride that gets in the way?

@Pseudonym @Centaur @Sheepistanis @M.AsfandYar

 

[NeonNinja]

In Quran Allah Almighty says:

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).” (15:9)

 

[Sheepistanis]

'Go to hell, Egypts response to French Islamophobes, causing severe butthurt to Kaffir's in cohorts.

BY an ardent Islamophobe.

Drivel
Drivel
Everyone must hate Islam
Drivel
Drivel

The entire premise of this balderdash: "World should disregard Jews violence against Muslims/ Christians, he said that, he says this, I failed to find what I was looking for in Quran, so I'll quote some pseudo intellectuals to perpetuate Islamophobia."

 

[untitled]

am i allowed to discuss religion?

This is a religious thread so why not?

 

[El Sidd]

This is a religious thread so why not?

then this thread should be locked

 

[PurpleStone]

The Quran is an old book,written in a different context and time,sure it needs an update. Many of its verses (or whatsoever) can be taken out of the context,can create confusion and can be used to deteriorate the image of muslims.

Unfortunately Christians of the West do not know Islam very well. Europeans speak their mind openly. This will not work with people who follow Islam. You have to use taqiyya.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

 

[Centaur]

Since we're talking about hate.......

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.”

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: “Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night. (Talmud)

Aboda Sarah 37a: “A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.”

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: “It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces.”

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: “All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.”

And also want to add something from Old Testament related to child murder and forced marriage aka rape.

Judges 21
1
The men of Israel had taken an oath at Mizpah: "Not one of us will give his daughter in marriage to a Benjamite."
2
The people went to Bethel, where they sat before God until evening, raising their voices and weeping bitterly.
3
"O LORD, the God of Israel," they cried, "why has this happened to Israel? Why should one tribe be missing from Israel today?"

4
Early the next day the people built an altar and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings.
5
Then the Israelites asked, "Who from all the tribes of Israel has failed to assemble before the LORD?" For they had taken a solemn oath that anyone who failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah should certainly be put to death.
6
Now the Israelites grieved for their brothers, the Benjamites. "Today one tribe is cut off from Israel," they said.
7
"How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the LORD not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?"
8
Then they asked, "Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah?" They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly.
9
For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there.
10
So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.

11
"This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."
12
They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
13
Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon.
14
So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
15
The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel.

16
And the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left?
17
The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said, "so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out.
18
We can't give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: `Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.'
19
But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah."
20
So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards
21
and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin.
22
When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, `Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.'"
23
So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
24
At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.
25
In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit...
Now Exodus 21:20-21


20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
Now selling own daughter as slave
Exodus 21:7
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
For countless violence in Bible this wiki article will be helpful.
In Qu'ran they misunderstand some verse from surah taubah, that verses were all for war time as war strategy ,
But in Bible violence is every where.
will they propose changing the Bible too?

 

[Solomon2]

...In Qu'ran they misunderstand some verse from surah taubah, that verses were all for war time as war strategy ,
But in Bible violence is every where.
will they propose changing the Bible too?

First, allow me to congratulate you on your choice of bible source.

Second, much of the bible stuff, even the Torah stuff (Judges isn't part of the Torah but one of the books of the prophets so it's more of a historical account) isn't applied harshly and literally and in many cases it was never meant to, as described at length in the Oral Law and codified in parts of the Talmud; besides, almost all the non-Muslim world (including Israel) is under mostly secular laws. So since "changing the Bible", even if done, isn't going to have the beneficial impact the French apparently expect from changing the Quran, nobody seriously bothers to propose it.