Musharaf is severely ill may die soon

[M. Sarmad]

Again bhutto was the one who started it so what makes us think that the one who started it wouldn't have finished it. See the pattern here we're giving both of these generals credit for something they stole.

Bhutto institutionalized Mullahism.. He was the man behind Pakistan's political Islamization. Zia only continued/pursued Bhutto's Islamization drive. Going by your logic, if Zia cannot be credited with the successful completion of Pakistan's nuclear program, he cannot be blamed for the Islamization of Pakistan either.

..... both of them broke the constitution they're traitors by law they broke the oath they swore Quran pe hath rakh ke. zia is dead but Musharraf in his last days at least can accept his mistakes starting from kargil (really our boys didn't deserved what he did with them) and apologize.

Agreed. As I stated earlier, dictatorship is by definition illegitimate
As for Kargil... I disagree

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The TTP did not come into existence as some 'Pakhtoon nationalist movement' - they were and are an Islamist terrorist group that uses religion as justification.

Mullah Fazlullah, Baitullah Mehsud etc never demanded 'Pakhtoon rights', they demanded imposition of some twisted and evil interpretation of Shariah.

Musharraf hunted down all opposition to him and his draconian policies resulted in discontent in KPK and FATA.

He specifically went after religious seminaries and foreign students, which further gave a bad name to Pakistan among religious Muslims. Still we have not recovered our soft power and prestige for being a bastion of Islamic learning.

Those Afghans who happened to come under his claws were shipped to Guantanamo to be tortured or murdered by CIA/Blackwater. He showed the Muslim world that Pakistan was willing to go on foreign invaders’ agendas.

TTP used this to further the cause of Pakistan being an agent of kuffar and US/India/Israel agents in Afghanistan helped feed this to the Afghan populace.

Lal masjid was the end for him because of his vicious overreaction and lack of finesse in dealing with a minor problem. In addition to his enlightened moderation mantra, Pakistanis began to see him not only as an enemy of Islam but also an agent of the US and enemy of Pakistan.

We are still paying for the price for the terrible policies of Musharraf.

Note that Nawaz Sharif himself appointed Musharraf, a young Muhajir with not many connections, and bypassed experienced and qualified generals only to suffer a coup at his hands.

All these NS, Zardari, Musharraf people are responsible for the mess we are in today.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Lal masjid was the end for him because of his vicious overreaction and lack of finesse in dealing with a minor problem. In addition to his enlightened moderation mantra, Pakistanis began to see him not only as an enemy of Islam but also an agent of the US and enemy of Pakistan.

What he did in Lal Masjid was perfectly justified.
Stop sympathizing with terrorists who take up arms against the State

He handed over innocent people to the Americans like Aafia Siddiqui. They killed her 3 children also.

Who told you Aafia was/is innocent?
Who killed her 3 children??

 

[The Sandman]

Bhutto institutionalized mullahism

i know he did it but zia accelerated it by 1000x for his political gains zia had no right to depose the govt in the first place who knows bhutto might have changed his policies later after all he was a politician (and believed to be a secular and liberal one) he could've afforded it. But zia didn't back down he literally abused religion.

if Zia cannot be credited with the successful completion of Pakistan's nuclear program, he cannot be blamed for Islamization of Pakistan either.

Your point has weight but again as i mentioned before we don't know if bhutto had continued his policy of mullah appeasement. But zia not only appeased mullahs he created 2 monsters for us and many other things. Kher we're going in circles now and off topic too.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

He handed over innocent people to the Americans like Aafia Siddiqui. They killed her 3 children also.

Aafua Siddiqui was arrested in Afghanistan and the US took custody of her and flew her to the US when she attacked US personnel in Afghanistan. Pakistan did not 'hand her over to the US'.

 

[Skies]

I remember the period of Kargil war when I would like him and used to listen about the updates of war in the radio (BBC Bangla) anticipating that Kashmir would be taken from India finally.

It is sad to see that people die without seeing the success for which they fight.

 

[Crixus]

He is the only Pakistani leader who honestly tried to resolve Kashmir issue alas Vajpayee lost 2004 elections and we lost that moment.......what ever people will say but. I like his honesty

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Musharraf hunted down all opposition to him and his draconian policies resulted in discontent in KPK and FATA.

How so? Musharraf was far from a 'draconian' dictator, if he had been none of the established political leadership would be alive. And why would 'discontent' arise in KPK and FATA, when it was in fact the Punjabi (Sharif's) and Sindhi (Bhutto, Zardari) leadership that was targeted? The MMA and ANP leadership was left largely untouched.

He specifically went after religious seminaries and foreign students, which further gave a bad name to Pakistan among religious Muslims. Still we have not recovered our soft power and prestige for being a bastion of Islamic learning.

It was under Musharraf that the MMA was in power, and Musharraf never launched any kind of 'operation' against religious seminaries. What he tried to do (and failed) was reform madrassa's and implement a more modern and diverse curriculum that would bring Madrassa students on par with other students. That idea, of reforming Madrassa's and modernizing their curriculum, is still a good idea that successive PPP, PMLN and PTI governments have attempted to implement.

 

[M. Sarmad]

i know he did it but zia accelerated it by 1000x for his political gains zia had no right to depose the govt in the first place who knows bhutto might have changed his policies later after all he was a politician (and believed to be a secular and liberal one) he could've afforded it. But zia didn't back down he literally abused religion.

Yes, Zia too, just like Bhutto, tried to use Islam as a political tool and he enacted few of the most controversial laws in the country but he didn't accelerate anything. 'The irreversible damage' had already been done by ZAB


It was during Bhutto's regime that religion became the official legitimizing strategy for all political manoeuvres. In a frenzy to break the momentum of the PNA-led movement, numerous Islamisation measures erupted. Shariat laws were introduced; gambling, horse racing, and alcohol were banned. The PPP manifesto was duly amended, making Friday the weekly holiday, introducing Quranic studies as mandatory for all students, establishing Ulema (clerical) academies and so forth . These moves established the PPP’s dedication to the cause of Islam, which became Bhutto’s most powerful defence to fight the PNA in their own battlefield.


He was the one who made Islam the state religion and set pre-requisites for the head of state to be Muslim.... One of Bhutto’s last desperate bids to buy off religious parties agitating for his overthrow with U.S. backing was to declare the Ahmadiyya Community non-Muslim in 1974 ... The concept of "constitutional kafir" was introduced for the first time, thereby making "official adoption" of sectarianism (as a state policy)...


In 1976, ZAB controversially appointed General Zia-ul-Haq the Chief of Army Staff in another move to appease the JI (of whom Zia was a close compatriot) ... Zia ul Haq was the Pakistan army's most junior Lt. General when Bhutto selected him to be Chief of the Army Staff.... Later regretting his choice, ZAB told the Supreme Court (which sent him to the gallows): "I appointed a Chief of Army belonging to Jamaat-i-Islami and the result is before us." ... Bhutto institutionalized mullahism through the constitution, and then he appointed an Army Chief belonging to JI .. !! Who is the 'actual' culprit behind the "damage" then ?? Zia, or the "politician" Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto?

Your point has weight but again as i mentioned before we don't know if bhutto had continued his policy of mullah appeasement.

You can't have it both ways, dear

You are 'assuming' that Bhutto would have continued the Nuclear programme but he would NOT have continued with the Islamization drive... Bhutto may very well have continued with the religious drive and rolled back Pakistan's nuclear program... 'Assumptions' don't matter ... If you are unwilling to give credit to Zia for the successful completion of Pakistan's nuclear program, you cannot blame him for the Islamization of Pakistan either. Simple as that

He is the only Pakistani leader who honestly tried to resolve Kashmir issue alas Vajpayee lost 2004 elections and we lost that moment.......what ever people will say but. I like his honesty

Even today, Musharraf's four-point formula on Kashmir offers the best possible solution.

 

[Crixus]

His formula was above chest thumping and zingoism it was based on ground reality..... Vsjpayee’s loss was one of the biggest for South Asia ... who when India and Pakistan will get decision makers like them ...

Yes, Zia too, just like Bhutto, tried to use Islam as a political tool and he enacted few of the most controversial laws in the country but he didn't accelerate anything. 'The irreversible damage' had already been done by ZAB


It was during Bhutto's regime that religion became the official legitimizing strategy for all political manoeuvres. In a frenzy to break the momentum of the PNA-led movement, numerous Islamisation measures erupted. Shariat laws were introduced; gambling, horse racing, and alcohol were banned. The PPP manifesto was duly amended, making Friday the weekly holiday, introducing Quranic studies as mandatory for all students, establishing Ulema (clerical) academies and so forth . These moves established the PPP’s dedication to the cause of Islam, which became Bhutto’s most powerful defence to fight the PNA in their own battlefield.


He was the one who made Islam the state religion and set pre-requisites for the head of state to be Muslim.... One of Bhutto’s last desperate bids to buy off religious parties agitating for his overthrow with U.S. backing was to declare the Ahmadiyya Community non-Muslim in 1974 ... The concept of "constitutional kafir" was introduced for the first time, thereby making "official adoption" of sectarianism (as a state policy)...


In 1976, ZAB controversially appointed General Zia-ul-Haq the Chief of Army Staff in another move to appease the JI (of whom Zia was a close compatriot) ... Zia ul Haq was the Pakistan army's most junior Lt. General when Bhutto selected him to be Chief of the Army Staff.... Later regretting his choice, ZAB told the Supreme Court (which sent him to the gallows): "I appointed a Chief of Army belonging to Jamaat-i-Islami and the result is before us." ... Bhutto institutionalized mullahism through the constitution, and then he appointed an Army Chief belonging to JI .. !! Who is the 'actual' culprit behind the "damage" then ?? Zia, or the "politician" Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto?




You can't have it both ways, dear

You are 'assuming' that Bhutto would have continued the Nuclear programme but he would NOT have continued with the Islamization drive... Bhutto may very well have continued with the religious drive and rolled back Pakistan's nuclear program... 'Assumptions' don't matter ... If you are unwilling to give credit to Zia for the successful completion of Pakistan's nuclear program, you cannot blame him for the Islamization of Pakistan either. Simple as that



Even today, Musharraf's four-point formula on Kashmir offers the best possible solution.

 

[El Sidd]

Aafua Siddiqui was arrested in Afghanistan and the US took custody of her and flew her to the US when she attacked US personnel in Afghanistan. Pakistan did not 'hand her over to the US'.

and Kulbashan Yadev started Operation in 2004.

 

[M. Sarmad]

His formula was above chest thumping and zingoism it was based on ground reality..... Vsjpayee’s loss was one of the biggest for South Asia ... who when India and Pakistan will get decision makers like them ...

Musharraf's formula was acceptable to Vajpayee as it did not involve ''re-drawing" of boundaries.
Vajpayee and Musharraf had almost resolved the Kashmir Dispute.
Alas, there won't be another Musharraf, or Vajpayee

 

[Crixus]

What a legacy both would have left if Vajpayee would have got second term ..... we would have got rid of terrorism and Pakistan would have got 100% water security......but alas we missed those moments

Musharraf's formula was acceptable to Vajpayee as it did not involve ''re-drawing" of boundaries.
Vajpayee and Musharraf had almost resolved the Kashmir Dispute.
Alas, there won't be another Musharraf, or Vajpayee

 

[The Sandman]

The irreversible damage' had already been done by ZAB

Nope it was done in zia's time. Let's accept the fact that it was zia who literally changed the fabric of Pakistani society that's the real damage. Use of religion for politics was always there what bhutto did is indefensible but it is minuscule in comparison to what zia did.

"A Federal Shariat Court was created for enforcing religious laws, striking down laws it found repugnant to Islam, and with some power to make laws. The state assumed the power to collect zakat and ushr. Ahmadis were barred from calling their prayer houses mosques, from possessing and reading the Quran or using the Muslim ways of greeting one another, using Islamic epithets or naming their daughters after women belonging to the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) family.

The Penal Code was amended to provide for punishment for desecration of the Holy Quran and for punishing blasphemy with death or life imprisonment (later on the the Shariat Court made death for blasphemy mandatory). The parliament was designated as the Majlis-e-Shura, and an arbitrarily amended Objectives Resolution — used hitherto as a preamble to the constitution — was made its substantive part. Furthermore, an attempt was made to subvert the system of democratic elections by holding party-less polls.

In addition, Zia amended the constitutional provisions relating to qualifications for membership of assemblies and disqualification of members to make them suggestive of respect for religious criteria. He also subverted the education system, firstly by facilitating the growth of religious seminaries (while extension and improvement of general education were neglected and books on rights and democracy were burnt) and increased religion-related lessons in textbooks at all grade levels. Further he tried to consolidate his measures through a constitutional amendment (the ninth amendment) but it was not adopted. He was also unable in his attempts to create morality brigades to enforce the system of prayers and puritanical regulations."

The judiciary, never keen to rule against religious extremists, has often declined to touch Zia’s amendments on the grounds of their having been endorsed by elected governments through acquiescence.

Bhutto’s most powerful defence to fight the PNA in their own battlefield.

This he was a politician buddy he could've changed it later because i said damage he did was not so much in comparison to what zia did.

rolled back Pakistan's nuclear program

And commit a political suicide not only for him but for his party too?

You can't have it both ways, dear

I can! As proved above.

 

[El Sidd]

I remember the period of Kargil war when I would like him and used to listen about the updates of war in the radio (BBC Bangla) anticipating that Kashmir would be taken from India finally.

It is sad to see that people die without seeing the success for which they fight.

yes we know he apologized to mukti bahani.