Mumbai : Prove Fire Temple Is Important To You, State Tells Parsis

[Sinnerman108]

Parsis this parsis that, no one gives a shyte. You guys are parsis and alive because these Hindu Baniyas gave you refuge and land to live.

Prove in the court, that your fire temples needs to be "connected to the earth" and how a tunnel underneath desecrates the temple.

First it was structural damage, when that couldn't be proved in the court then all this religious mumbo jumbo started.

and Hindus proved the existence of Ram temple before destroying the historic mosque ?

@Sinnerman108

Some of the rules you were interested in learning more about.

These are specific to the consecration of the holy Atash Padshahs.

The Consecration Of Our Holy Atash Padhshahs

Let’s reaffirm our faith in the power of Pak Aatash Padshah Saheb, the son of Dadar Ahura Mazda. PT Reporter Jamshed Arjani speaks with Er. Dr. Ramiyar Karanjia, who shares various factors regarding the consecration of these holy beings.

PT: Tell us about the sixteen fires which come together to consecrate an Atash Behram?
RK: The 16 fires for the Atash Behram are sourced from different places, mainly where fire is used as a means of vocations by different people, and where it undergoes hardships in various ways. There are no particular names to these 16 types of fires.

PT: What is the source of these fires and the numerous purification rituals? How long does the purification continue until the Atash Behram is consecrated?
RK: The source of each fire is generally the household or the work place from where it is ceremoniously collected. Two very special types of fires, among the sixteen used in the Atash Behram, are the Fire of Lightning and the Fire of a Burning Corpse.

The sixteen fires are first collected from their source. They are not directly taken but wood shavings are ignited on a ladle (chamach) with holes, from the heat of the fire, and that fire is taken. These 16 fires are:

After the above fires are collected they undergo further procedures which include:

Purification: The 16 fires are separately purified thus… Some sandal wood shavings are kept on a ladle with holes, which are ignited from the fire in the Afarganyu (fire vase). Once ignited, this fire is kept on another empty Afarganyu. This process is repeated different number of times for different fires, as mentioned in the table above. Priests mentally recite certain prayers while this process is going on. After this, the fires are consecrated.

Consecration: For consecration, several pairs of priests are involved in performing Yasna and Vendidad rituals, for the requisite number of times, as mentioned in the table above, for each of the 16 fires. It takes several months to completely finish these rituals, depending on the number of priests involved.
For each of the sixteen fires, the first three Yasna and Vendidad are performed with the invocation to the Ameshaspands and Yazads presiding over the first to the sixteenth day of the calendar. The rest of the Yasna and Vendidad are performed with the invocation to each of the 30 days of the month, as many times over as required. The different combinations of the various invocations are too intricate and complicated, after which the fires are amalgamated.

Amalgamation: Once the consecration process is over, the 16 fires are amalgamated and then a Yasna and Vendidad with the invocation to Sarosh Yazad is performed for three days, followed by a Yasna and Vendidad each for the next thirty days, dedicated to the Ameshaspand/Yazad of the day, thus concluding the consecration rituals.

Consecration of the Keblā or the Sanctum Sanctorum and the Building: The Sanctum Sanctorum or the Keblā, where the consecrated fire is kept, as also the building housing the sacred fire, have to be consecrated. The sanctum is in the main prayer hall. It is a special room with a dome (Gumbaj) over it. A metallic canopy, symbolising the crown of the sacred fire, hangs above the fire-vase. This most important part of the fire temple is closed on three sides, and has a big wooden door on the fourth side. On two of the three closed sides there is window each. Generally the south side wall has no window as Zoroastrians are enjoined not to pray facing the North.

Before the consecration of the building and the keblā, the area is swabbed thrice with bull’s urine and then thrice with water. Then for four days, two priests perform a Yasna and Vendidad with the invocation of Sarosh Yazad in the fire temple building and also within the keblā and then perform a special Afringan. The Afarganyu too is consecrated by taking it into the pavi and performing the Bajdharna of Sarosh on it.

Installation of the Consecrated Fire: On the appointed day of installation, one Yasna is done with the invocation to Sarosh Yazad on the amalgamated consecrated fires. Then the sacred fire is ceremoniously taken in a procession by priests in their complete priesthood regalia holding spears, swords and gurz (mace) in their hands for the protection of the sacred fire, which is now referred to as their ‘king’ or pādshah.’ Lay people too follow this procession.

The fire is respectfully enthroned (takhta-nashin) in the sanctum sanctorum (keblā). The ceremoniously enthroned fire has the status of a King, with the stone hindholā as its throne. The dome (gumbaj) of the keblā signifies the sky, which is the jurisdiction of the fire. The metallic canopy hanging above the fire is its crown.

This sacred fire will now be kept continuously burning. Priests offer prayers and fuel to the fire at least five times a day, at the turn of the five gehs, when they perform the Boi ritual.

PT: Which are the four fires required for consecrating an Aadaryan? Is it essential to consecrate an Aadaryaan within the Atash Behram premises?
RK: Atash Adaran requires gathering of hearth fires from representatives of four professional groups: the priests (athornan); the soldiers / warriors / rulers (ratheshtaran); the farmers or herdsmen (vastryoshan); and any of the artisans (hutokhshan) like blacksmith, goldsmith, tinsmith or potter. After gathering, they are kept separately till they undergo the stages of purification, consecration, amalgamation and installation as is done for the Atash Behram. Purification process is repeated four times for the fire from the priest’s house and thrice for the other three fires. Then, four pairs of priests consecrate each of the fires separately. On the first day two Yasnas and a Vendidad are performed. On the second day, a Yasna and a Vendidad is performed. Finally the fires are amalgamated. Two priests perform a Yasna and Vendidad with the invocation to Sarosh Yazad and on the following day a Yasna with the invocation to Dādār Ahura Mazda, which concludes the amalgamation. Thereafter the fire is ceremoniously established. It is not necessary to have an Aadaryan in the Atash Behram premise.

PT: Please explain the significance of the Boi ritual.
RK: The word Boi comes from the Avestan word baodha, Pahlavi boe, both of which mean ‘fragrance’. Hence the boi ritual is to feed the sacred fire with fragrance (sukhad) and fuel (kāthi). A boi ritual is performed over consecrated fires of Adaran and Atash Behram in each of the five watches of the day. For the Dadgah fire a boi is done at least once a day. During the performance of boi rituals for Atash Behram, and in special cases for the Agyari, the priest offers long pieces of sandal-wood referred to as Māchi. The hindhola of the Atash Padshah is ceremoniously washed in certain cases. Varying numbers of Atash Nyash is recited. At the recital of the first Nyash bells are rung, generally, at the words Dushmata, Duzhukhta and Duzhvarshta.

PT: Which prayer can devotees recite in a fire temple? How can we maintain the sanctity of our Pak Atash Padshahs?
RK: The best prayer to recite to maintain the power and sanctity of our Pak Aatash Padshah sahebs is the Atash Nyaish, after doing one’s Farajyat prayers. Zoroastrian Fire Temples are sanctified and consecrated places of worship. Zoroastrians need to be concerned about their sanctity and observe rules of ritual purity before going into these sacred places, in order to maintain their sanctity. That is the main reason why entry into a fire-temple is prohibited for non-Zoroastrians. Fire, especially consecrated fire, is to be approached with dignity and respect. Physical and ritual purity is to be maintained. The rules include taking a bath, wearing appropriate clothes and doing the Kasti before approaching the sacred fire. According to the Atash Nyaish, when approaching a fire, one is expected to take gifts of dry, fragrant and pure wood with honestly earned money. It also tells us how the fire should be venerated, what we can ask from the fire and how the fire gives its devotees blessings of wealth, prosperity, alertness, fluent tongue, brilliant children, health and evolution of the soul.

Cheers, Doc

Thanks doc, that was good to know.
but
I am afraid I was not clear.

See the temple and sun's shadows from the pillars at different times of the day.
Someone carefully planned the alignment of the building.
The ratio of sides, and positioning of the rooms inside must also follow some rules.
The old persians knew these rules and created absolutely marvelous structures.
These are the rules I want to learn.

 

[Roybot]

and Hindus proved the existence of Ram temple before destroying the historic mosque ?

They did destroy the structure, but they didn't build the Ram Temple there. The matter is in court, and once it is proven that a temple existed at the site, only then will the temple be allowed to be built.

I don't know about your country, but in India the law takes its course. Similarly, the Parsis have been asked to prove that having the fire connected to the earth is a necessity in their religion.

See the temple and sun's shadows from the pillars at different times of the day.
Someone carefully planned the alignment of the building.
The ratio of sides, and positioning of the rooms inside must also follow some rules.
The old persians knew these rules and created absolutely marvelous structures.
These are the rules I want to learn.

You should check out some of the temples in India, like this one.

 

[padamchen]

Some facts for the lay public with regard to the seriousness of the consecration and coronation of an Atash Padshah and the rules and theology surrounding it:

The Divine Status of an Atash Padshah and The Dangers of Moving an Atash Padshah.

Firstly, a consecrated Atash Padshah is a live conscious Entity in Nature. He is not just some pieces of wood with a lighted flame. Atash Saheb is regarded as Ahura Mazda's Puthrao, meaning Ahura's son. An Atash Padshah is created by a complex process of its collection, purification, consecration and finally its coronation. Thus, a newly consecrated Adarian Fire acquires “Khasthra”, meaning Power and Authority from Nature.

According to Zarathushtrian metaphysics, Adar Yazad is the prime Force operating on the ultra-physical plane called Atar-e-Mino-Karko. We tap into this divine source of energy when we consecrate an Atash Padshah for an Agiary. So from the time an Atash Padshah is consecrated, He has a spiritual link with the Fire Energies of the Divine World. After consecration, a Karsh (Kash) is formed in the ash surrounding the Visible Fire.

Once a consecrated Atash is created, He has a right to live and perform His duty in Nature, like any other living entity. The prime duty of a consecrated Fire is to purify its environment in a spiritual manner. All the surrounding evil is destroyed by it. Secondly, a consecrated Fire serves as a connection for Zarathushtrian devotees to Ahura Mazda. You reach out to Ahura Mazda through His son (Puthrao), the Fire.

The site and the sanctum sanctorum (inner room) where the Fire resides in an Agiary has spiritual connections around it, which are strengthened as years go by because of repeated boi ceremonies by the priests and the prayers of devout Parsis. So if we move or relocate a consecrated Fire, these links with the Divine World are severely damaged or even broken.

Atash Padshahs are hundreds of years old and thousands of Atash Nyaishes (specific prayers to the Fire) have been recited in front of Him by the priests and laity. In this manner the Holy Fire establishes a very strong link with the Celestial World. Moving such a Fire even within the Agiary premises itself to a different room has to be done with utmost care and with accompanying prayers, let alone moving Him from the location altogether. Not only that, with the consecration of the Atash, the entire Agiary building becomes a consecrated talismanic fortress. Hence, a Divine connection is broken when a consecrated Fire is relocated.

A consecrated Fire also needs to have a constant connection to the earth (Paivand). When we move the Atash Padshah over long distances, that connection is broken. Lastly, an Atash Padshah cannot be moved over the waters, and should be shielded from the electromagnetic waves that are produced in the electricity transmission and domestic distribution lines. There is no electricity, electrical gadgets, phone lines, powerful magnets, or cell phones anywhere inside an Atash Bahram.

The late Mr. Adi F. Doctor, a Zarathushtrian scholar, writer and speaker had written that: The "Padshah" that has been dethroned and shifted then loses His "Dahyupati", His Power to communicate with the other ethereal planes, His Power to fight the evil and His Power to bring back the blessings of the Divine Forces. His "body" has been virtually cut off. He loses His separate Spiritual Entity. The visible fire then becomes a. mere 'Kebla'. This fire will now be constantly exposed to the attacks of evil forces working in Nature.

It is believed in ancient Avestan scriptures that strong magnetic fields develop around a consecrated fire once it is established in place. These magnetic fields tap into the celestial energy grid. Burning sandalwood has its own symbolism in the form of material hopes and burdens of earth and the Behdin being consumed by the fire and vaporized and rising to the heavens to Ahura Mazda. The holy ash (Rakhya) applied with a pinch to the forehead (and wiped off before the devotees step out) also is Ahura Mazda's blessings and reply in return. These fields of energy are not inly disturbed, but destroyed, when the Atash is moved. These are universal Zoroastrian beliefs and not merely those of the Khshnoom cult of the occult and mysticism that grew (Ilm-e-Khshnoom) among a sect of Zoroastrians in the 18th century as some try to explain. These were the Saheb-e-Dilan, a group of 2000 individuals led by 72 Maghav (Magi) called the Abed, who lived in isolation in the Caucasus mountains (the Alborz range around Mount Damavand).

Cheers, Doc

@I.R.A @Sinnerman108 @Retired Troll

 

[KAMDEV]

I hope thngs will be resolved amicably

 

[manlion]

To a large extent, we also believe the same happened to the Vedic Hindus after the Puranic epoch with the complete peripheralization of fire and the swing towards water and idols.

Cheers, Doc

Present Hinduism has not completely delinked itself from its vedic (Aryan) roots e.g the fire sacrificial rituals (more so in the south) , burning the dead, which is considered as a purification rite

 

[padamchen]

Present Hinduism has not completely delinked itself from its vedic (Aryan) roots e.g the fire sacrificial rituals , burning the dead, which is considered as a purification rite

I never said completely.

But its changed to a point where there is very little similarity left to the original Aryan Vedic origins.

As per @ranjeet there was a time every Hindu home would have an eternally burning fire in the house (hearth, chulha, diya, divo), like us.

How many Hindu homes you know now where a fire is always burning in their homes? Now it is in the Mandirs or for yagnas and festivals, marriages, etc.

Also, early Vedic Hindus would leave their dead in the open in burial pits called ossuaries. These are seen dotted all over north western India and indeed all IVC sites as well.

Burning the dead came a lot later.

This is similar to the Zoroastrian last rites where in the place of pits, the dead were left on open mounds for birds of carrion.

The stone slabs and the central pit for the bones with the surrounding walls in the more intricate Towers of Silence (Dokhmas) came much later.

Cheers, Doc

They did destroy the structure, but they didn't build the Ram Temple there. The matter is in court, and once it is proven that a temple existed at the site, only then will the temple be allowed to be built.

I don't know about your country, but in India the law takes its course. Similarly, the Parsis have been asked to prove that having the fire connected to the earth is a necessity in their religion.



You should check out some of the temples in India, like this one.

There is a lot of stuff if you look for ancient Zoroastrian architecture.

This is a link to the older and simpler original fire temples ....

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/temples/index.htm

Cheers, Doc

 

[manlion]

off topic -

thanks to Tamil brahmin influence - Thais too are into vedic Aryan fire ritual

 

[takeiteasy]

Parsis are considered the "useful", "not threatening" minority by the Hindu extremists. They consider Islam and Christianity as threatening Hinduism. An ideal Hindu extremist (RSS) society supports a healthy caste system, where low castes are asked to do menial jobs and as slaves to Brahmins and high castes, so that they may re-born as Brahmin in the next Janma. But...it seems Parsis are also feeling the heat from vegetarian eaters who are motivated by the hate.

A Muslim or Christian whom militant Hindu accept is one doing Ganesh Pooja, openly abuse own religion (Islam, Christianity) so as to satisfy the desires of the old Hindu terrorists - Golwalkar and Savarkar who advocated the land of the pure. Blaming Abrahamic religions is a way of life for militant Hindus. They claim self-victimhood to justify violence against non-Hindus, especially Abrahamic type. What is preventing these Hindu radicals craving for Hindu Ummah to do a mass genocide of the infidels (non-Hindu, Abrahamic) is the sheer number of Muslims who are not accounted in official census. Probably 18-20 carore Muslims agitated can result in a civil war. Any one who supports RSS-BJP, in the neutral eyes are genocidal marauders, the bastard sons of Aurangazeb and Gazni. The Hindu Ummah craving Hi-jihadis. There is no two way about it - Hinduism is not a saintly religion, when you are nurturing snakes like RSS, VHP, BJP, Bajrang Dal and thousands of affiliates openly.
http://www.stopfundinghate.org/resources/rssprimer.htm

 

[padamchen]

Parsis are considered the "useful", "not threatening" minority by the Hindu extremists. They consider Islam and Christianity as threatening Hinduism. An ideal Hindu extremist (RSS) society supports a healthy caste system, where low castes are asked to do menial jobs and as slaves to Brahmins and high castes, so that they may re-born as Brahmin in the next Janma. But...it seems Parsis are also feeling the heat from vegetarian eaters who are motivated by the hate.

A Muslim or Christian whom militant Hindu accept is one doing Ganesh Pooja, openly abuse own religion (Islam, Christianity) so as to satisfy the desires of the old Hindu terrorists - Golwalkar and Savarkar who advocated the land of the pure. Blaming Abrahamic religions is a way of life for militant Hindus. They claim self-victimhood to justify violence against non-Hindus, especially Abrahamic type. What is preventing these Hindu radicals craving for Hindu Ummah to do a mass genocide of the infidels (non-Hindu, Abrahamic) is the sheer number of Muslims who are not accounted in official census. Probably 18-20 carore Muslims agitated can result in a civil war. Any one who supports RSS-BJP, in the neutral eyes are genocidal marauders, the bastard sons of Aurangazeb and Gazni. The Hindu Ummah craving Hi-jihadis. There is no two way about it - Hinduism is not a saintly religion, when you are nurturing snakes like RSS, VHP, BJP, Bajrang Dal and thousands of affiliates openly.
http://www.stopfundinghate.org/resources/rssprimer.htm

Please lets not make this a Hindu bashing thread man.

I know the types of Hindus who resent and are hugely envious of us.

But I know a lt more decent Hindus.

This is fact.

The day it changes, I'll not shy away from saying it either.

I look around me and I see an upper middle class that is simply speechless at the hate politics and the incompetence of the BJP.

I for the life of me do not know or understand where these sanghi netizens crawl out from man ....

Definitely nowhere in the society I move around in.

Cheers, Doc

 

[SQ8]

Please read a bit more ...

Cheers, Doc



It's not religion at all.

I've always said that in the war to come, Muslims are going to be on the side, wondering what happened.

And Hindus are going to wonder who the enemy is.

This is politics and rebalancing of power across strictly regimented ancestral Hindu lines.

This is stoking and riding a class war.

This is India's French Revolution ....

Or the Czarist purge.

Either way I don't see it ending well for us.

Cheers, Doc

The french were better off for it, but the Soviet union we are all aware of. It cannot end well in any conflict of class whether on social or economic lines.

As for your lack of understanding on Islam, suggest this lady.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

from what I know, orthodox Hinduism belief nothing should be built above their temple domes that houses their gods as it links with the cosmic energy. E.g no overhead fly overs can be constructed over a temple dome as it obstructs the inflow of energy ( can this be scientifically proven ?)

In the case of Zoroastrianism their belief is the holy fire is spiritually linked to the earth, from which it draws sustenance. This is scientific if we consider the core of the earth consist of fire.

Lol. Pseudo-science and obsessive ritualistic priesthood.

This is why Islam and Christianity absorbed regions which were Parsi, Hindu, Shamanistic, and Pagan.

The french were better off for it, but the Soviet union we are all aware of. It cannot end well in any conflict of class whether on social or economic lines.

As for your lack of understanding on Islam, suggest this lady.

Wow, great speech.

 

[Thorough Pro]

There is no place for minorities in India, they want to convert india in to a hindu only state.

Muslims, Dalits, Tribals, Tamils - bigoted Hindutva brahamanits will not spare any one

Mumbai: Prove Fire Temple Is Important To You, State Tells Parsis
Setting community and MMRCL on warpath, govt pleader taunts petitioners: 'show more than two-and-a-half documents to prove that the Atash Behram is integral to Zoroastrianism

The Anjuman Atash Behram, one of the two temples likely to be affected by the Metro III underground tunnel. File pic

What was supposed to be a day to discuss an amiable solution to the ongoing Metro III-Atash Behram tussle, ended in yet another court hearing that questioned the importance of the holy structures for the Parsi community.

Arguing in the Bombay High Court, representatives of the state and central government said the "two-and-a-half documents" provided by the Parsi petitioners were "simply not enough" to prove how integral the Wadiaji and Anjuman Atash Behrams, which fall along the proposed alignment of Metro III, are for the Zoroastrian religion.

Ashutosh Kumbhakoni, advocate general representing the state government, stated that all beliefs cannot be granted protection under Article 25 of the Constitution (freedom of religion). He said, "We're dealing with a religion which built such a magnificent structure in the 1830s. We expect them to give evidence for the claims they're making. The two-and-a-half documents provided by them are simply not enough."

While Kumbhakoni did not specify which documents he was referring to, the petitioners have submitted an affidavit from Dr Rooyintan Peshotan Peer, a senior Parsi religious scholar, which describes the importance of the Atash Behrams.

'Material evidence'

Kumbhakoni further raised questions about the petitioner's claims that the community's fire temples will be desecrated if the Metro III underground tunnel is constructed anywhere beneath the Atash Behram premises. "There has to be material evidence to prove that the entire premises needs a connection with the earth, and that the religion will collapse if the tunnel goes under the premises that are consecrated. This has not been proven as per the material available on record," he said.

Raising similar points, Anil Singh, the additional solicitor general representing the central government referred to the concept of 'Karsh,' which are the protective spiritual circuits around the Atash Behrams, and stated that the scriptures had no mention about their physical boundaries.

mid-day had reported on August 22, in 'Metro III will devastate faith of Zoroastrians worldwide' about the community's lawyers stating in court that the Metro III construction violates their right to religious freedom. Navroz Seervai, one of the lawyers representing the Parsis, had told the court that the Atash Behrams are Grade III heritage structures, and, "If the Metro construction is allowed to continue, there could be irreversible spiritual damage and there are distinct chances of structural damage as well."

Parsis infuriated

The points raised by Kumbhakoni and Singh infuriated the members of the community who attended the hearing. They felt like they were being unfairly targeted, despite being one of the world's oldest surviving religions.

Yazdi Hodiwalla, a senior member of the community said, "More than 80 per cent of the scriptures were destroyed by Alexander III, and later, by the Arabs. Oral tradition is what we have now, which is passed down from generation to generation. We're unable to produce concrete documented proof, but that doesn't mean our religious beliefs aren't valid."

Absolutely integral

Referring to the state and Centre's statements as preposterous, Khojeste Mistree, a former trustee of the Bombay Parsee Punchayat and a religious scholar said, "The Atash Behrams are absolutely integral to our religion, and are the highest places of worship a Zoroastrian can go to. The customs and traditions are based on theology. Therefore, even if the scriptures are lost, the customs keep the religion alive," he said.

https://www.mid-day.com/articles/mu...-important-to-you-state-tells-parsis/19836193

 

[manlion]

There is no place for minorities in India, they want to convert india in to a hindu only state.

its Hindutva i.e Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan next they will convert all minority cultures into cow belt gangadeshi culture i.e Hindi and cow belt Hinduism

refer to the post below

The Supreme Court banned Jallikattu acknowledging that it is inherently cruel “as bulls are not anatomically suited to such activities, and that forcing them to participate subjects them to unnecessary pain and suffering".

It is a cruel sport.

Even Bullfighting was banned in the Spanish autonomous community of Catalonia by a vote of the Catalan Parliament in July 2010. The ban came into effect on 1 January 2012. The last bullfight in the region took place in Barcelona in September 2011.

 

[I.R.A]

In the case of Zoroastrianism their belief is the holy fire is spiritually linked to the earth, from which it draws sustenance. This is scientific if we consider the core of the earth consist of fire.

Not just the earth. But celestially as well. Both ways.

I don't intend to insult your religious beliefs neither I want to offend you .......... but without Oxygen the fire(s) won't survive. Water, fire, Earth ..... all of them lose their meaning and value without Oxygen. So any entity that is mortal, dependent on another something for its survival cannot be God or son of God.

 

[manlion]

I don't intend to insult your religious beliefs neither I want to offend you .......... but without Oxygen the fire(s) won't survive. Water, fire, Earth ..... all of them lose their meaning and value without Oxygen. So any entity that is mortal, dependent on another something for its survival cannot be God or son of God.

in the biblical account god appeared to Moses in the form of bush fire (Exodus 3-4) , fire is this sense is a symbolic representation of god ( and in most cultures) .