MRCA ::: India May Cancel Fighter Competition

[Mytime]

LOL so much talk about the MMRCA, now you guys wanna cancell the deal. The companies that took part are gonna be mad at you guys

---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ----------



You guys are buying planes like typhoon for your airforce, $20 billion sounda a good deal to me for 126 of them

Are you sure "WE GUYS" are cancelling any thing ? Did our PM or Defence minister quote this ???

 

[R0H1T]

Now before I get bombarded with Indian innuendo let me make two quick points.
Israel cooperates with India as long as it suits US. Ask the Chinese if they got their AWACS? Or may I remind you about the Saga of Israeli AESA Radar for Indian Gripen?
I have previously argued that US contenders for MMRCA were pound-for-pound most cost effective systems and European aircraft do not pan out to be as cost effective as they appear on paper. Order for 126 advanced European aircraft will easily see Indian government paying far more than 10 Billion dollars. It just cannot be done. And BTW there is news that your Mig 29 upgrade is in trouble as well. Russia want 2 Billions more.
I guess when you jibber jabbber about your wealth, people get greedy eh?

Does the same hold true for F-35(which btw is still an unfinished biz) or are you talking about F-18(latest versions) which is a gen or half behind the former ? The last part about dealing in defense equipment is true cause time & again its been proved that IND defense contracts are handled with utmost disdain so taking them as a purely commercial deal is out of question.

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

I was referring to F/A 18 Super Hornet as it was offered in a package to meet your own 6000+ Criteria based proposal. Once it became clear what the Indians were doing, Boeing did try to offer additional improvments in the package.
Of late, even a partnership into F 35 Lightening Program has been offered to India while the systems are being developed.
Mind you no other manufacturer can offer you access to such technology at the very cutting edge - FGFA or no FGFA.

 

[R0H1T]

I was referring to F/A 18 Super Hornet as it was offered in a package to meet your own 6000+ Criteria based proposal. Once it became clear what the Indians were doing, Boeing did try to offer additional improvments in the package.
Of late, even a partnership into F 35 Lightening Program has been offered to India while the systems are being developed.
Mind you no other manufacturer can offer you access to such technology at the very cutting edge - FGFA or no FGFA.

I think it also has to do alot with the fact that the Super Hornet(based on pretty old tech) is half a gen behind Eurofighter Typhoon & the French Rafale besides don't think the US would've transferred tech for the F-35 or even F-18 as requested by the IND contingent.

 

[Zabaniyah]

So let me get this right; "India & Israel have a radar that can detect F22 Raptor at 600km" REALLY?????
Does the hapless Pentagon know? Please let America know you have cracked the scientific barriers to augmenting exceptionally low radar signatures from Raptor so Obama can redirect all that money to other uses.

People here can come up with a lot exaggerated claims. Don't bother.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

I think it also has to do alot with the fact that the Super Hornet(based on pretty old tech) is half a gen behind Eurofighter Typhoon & the French Rafale besides don't think the US would've transferred tech for the F-35 or even F-18 as requested by the IND contingent.

The F-18 and F-16 came in very good packages. But yes, the Americans would be reluctant to offer ToT to India.

 

[Hello_10]

seriously Mig35 with mki standards would have been the best beast in IAF . They might have replaced the traditional engines with Su35 engines which would have indeed made the Mig35 more agile with super cruising ability . I dont know why to buy expensive aircrafts when pakistan will not be getting an aircraft better than F16IN(After lot of upgrades) and Mig35 can take out J10 or J11 wvr or bvr fights . You might have just changed the engine . By the time China gets J20's we will be having 1st stage of active BMD deployed that can detect stealth targets at 1000kms . We will be having handful of PAKFA's to counter J20's .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/89126-2-mig-35-rafale-eft.html

Sir, please don’t disturb our mood by a new “Vs” between Mig35 and F16IN block70, as, more or less these two 4++ aircrafts are fit comparable with each other with AESA radar by both, while Mig35 has upper hand on air superiority role as it was mainly an air superiority aircraft in 90s with now much improved A2G capabilities. And I repeat, if we put F16In and dual engine Mig35 face to face, the deciding factor would be only the skills of the pilots. And, whether Pakistan’s F16s can get upgrade to block 70 standard or not, no guarantee in current international scenario, but you have Mig35 with AESA radar on offer from 2013 onwards. thanks

 

[Zabaniyah]

^^^Little correction, there is no F-16 blk 70. There's the blk 60 which India was offered.

 

[Hello_10]

I believe MRCA was always an excuse for buying the technology transfer from EFT or Rafale .... but USD 20 billion is quite a large amount to get that advantage.

Perhaps that money should be diverted to buy technology at the component level, rather than system level (on the pattern we have with Israel).

For sprucing up IAF squadrons, we can the assembly lines for Su 30 MKI .. to enhance production per year.

Further funds can be diverted to further speed up, enhance orders for LCA.

In the current geo-political environment, we can live without the entry of 126 MRCA entering between 2015 and 2020. The money saved can be used elsewhere.

Sir SU30MKI has different type of uses, like how we are paying $4.1bn for 42 new order which will have Brahmos missiles and AESA radar and this aircraft will be a better in comparison to Rafale, F15, or Eurofighter also which hasent developed its AESA radar till now. Only stealth Raptor can be said to be better than the new batch of 42 SU30MKIs in today’s world which will enter in IAF by 2013. while LCA with Mig29SMT and Mirage2000 will have different type of uses with mainly Multi role operations within the Indian territory and it will be mainly stealth PAK FA/ FGFA ($100mil each), which will be sent in the territory of China from 2020 onwards. but here, where do we fit these around 200 MRCA aircrafts for around $25bn? for the operations inside deep China? No, as they are not stealth so they wont back so we wont send them there. then, for the operations within Indian territory like an interceptor, then, thats why we are paying around $130mil each for them? while, even if you include life cycle cost including maintenance cost, 200 Mig35 can well be bought for at least $8bn less than Rafale or Eurofighter (around 42,500 crore rupees saving) which may be used to make credible infrastructure ?????????????

 

[tvsram1992]

So let me get this right; "India & Israel have a radar that can detect F22 Raptor at 600km" REALLY?????
Does the hapless Pentagon know? Please let America know you have cracked the scientific barriers to augmenting exceptionally low radar signatures from Raptor so Obama can redirect all that money to other uses.

If F22 can be assumed to have an RCS of a cricket ball, i dont think F22 so less RCS . And what did you think how is BMD made , they have radars that detect small sized objects even at 2000-3000kms range . Just a question for you, how can (leave India a side) US intercept a missile if it is not detected? Now dont say satellites, cuz the technology needs to be improved and its not a perfect satellite guided interceptor .
Now coming to F22 i dont think F22 would be flying at >5kms height so it will be detected at a reasonable distance , and i remember an expert saying though F22 will be detected by powerful ground based radars there is no reliable way to transfer the coordinates to a fighter which in turn locks on to F22 . I mean the lock will not sustain .

 

[tvsram1992]

^^^Little correction, there is no F-16 blk 70. There's the blk 60 which India was offered.

It was told to LM to be ready to make Block 70 for India .
Couldnt find the exact source , here is some thing related.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19364-f16-block-70-usa-magazine.html

 

[The enlightened]

Sir SU30MKI has different type of uses, like how we are paying $4.1bn for 42 new order which will have Brahmos missiles and AESA radar and this aircraft will be a better in comparison to Rafale, F15, or Eurofighter also which hasent developed its AESA radar till now. Only stealth Raptor can be said to be better than the new batch of 42 SU30MKIs in today’s world which will enter in IAF by 2013. while LCA with Mig29SMT and Mirage2000 will have different type of uses with mainly Multi role operations within the Indian territory and it will be mainly stealth PAK FA/ FGFA ($100mil each), which will be sent in the territory of China from 2020 onwards. but here, where do we fit these around 200 MRCA aircrafts for around $25bn? for the operations inside deep China? No, as they are not stealth so they wont back so we wont send them there. then, for the operations within Indian territory like an interceptor, then, thats why we are paying around $130mil each for them? while, even if you include life cycle cost including maintenance cost, 200 Mig35 can well be bought for at least $8bn less than Rafale or Eurofighter (around 42,500 crore less) which may be used to make credible infrastructure ?????????????

hmmmm
so according to your logic there is no way on earth we will be sending even
MKI"s into 'deep china' as it is not stealth
should we debunk them too
and if
a mki'ed mig 35 will be better option than a rafale or typhoon
so you think 'our' air force threw it out of the competion for nothing
the reality is both rafale and typhoon are way better than su 30mki
more so if you compare rafale's A2G capabilities and EF T3B[the one we'll get]'s A2A capabilties

 

[Hello_10]

MRCA was started with the aim of buying something in the class of M2K or MIG29
rafales and typhoons entered at a very later stage
about the money yes
the deal is heavily overpriced
but the kind of technology we will gain from it might prove to be crucial in the future

Sir, dont fool yourself, you are going to get few techs, but not something for what you would pay so much. techs of a 4++ aircraft, while you are engaged in 5th gen PAK FA/ FGFA from design/ production/ operation to maintenance phase, while you already have assess to full techs of Russia with time to time engagements with French/ Israelis also, you are going to get almost nothing from MRCA. as, even if European suppliers have few key techs of Rafale/ Eurofighter, they won't let you touch them so easily.

 

[tvsram1992]

People here can come up with a lot exaggerated claims. Don't bother.

People wont claim just because they want to . They claim because they have . Then how do u think missiles are detected at 1000's of kms ie even in boost phase and how do you think missile detection is possible . Powerful LRTR's can detect even F22 at very long distances if every thing is clear but the problem is they cannot lock them. Hope you understand . And whats big deal in making a powerful radar on ground , the problem is miniaturization either its on awacs or fighters . As large nose of an aircraft can accommodate much powerful radar so as a radar can be made powerful on ground by increasing winidings or something which i dont remember exactly .

 

[Hello_10]

I believe MRCA was always an excuse for buying the technology transfer from EFT or Rafale .... but USD 20 billion is quite a large amount to get that advantage.

Perhaps that money should be diverted to buy technology at the component level, rather than system level (on the pattern we have with Israel).

For sprucing up IAF squadrons, we can the assembly lines for Su 30 MKI .. to enhance production per year.

Further funds can be diverted to further speed up, enhance orders for LCA.

In the current geo-political environment, we can live without the entry of 126 MRCA entering between 2015 and 2020. The money saved can be used elsewhere.

entry of MRCA by 2020 and Pilots will master these aircrafts by 2024 and till then stealth PAK FA/ FGFA will become the frontline aircrafts as you won't send 4th gen in the Chinese territory if you know these 4th gen won't back. so, you are paying $130mil, 30% more than PAK FA, for an interceptor which will woork within Indian territory??????

 

[Hello_10]

I think it also has to do alot with the fact that the Super Hornet(based on pretty old tech) is half a gen behind Eurofighter Typhoon & the French Rafale besides don't think the US would've transferred tech for the F-35 or even F-18 as requested by the IND contingent.

F35/ JSF is nothing but aa crap. I have read many times on the western newspapers that even twin engine J20 would be decisively better than F35 while PAK FA is a much better one, and with delays in F35 programs, more or less F35 would also come in production sometimes from 2018.(also, PAK FA cost around $100mil each while F35 atleast fro $160mil). please read one link below and google about F35, its nothing but a crap.
Scientists warned Australian defence department against Joint Strike Fighter