MMRCA debate

[sancho]

Post link only so i can open it on youtube... Directly its ban in pakistan..

youtube...watch?v=M1DF8-qBuao

 

[Echo_419]

The mentality of always preferring to buy foreign goods is not good for national interests.

How can indigenous industries ever become powerful, if even domestic customers do not want to buy it?

You should trust in your own things, that's the only way they will get better.

The Problem in the Govt Run agencies are quite a few,Nepotism,Corruption,Lack of Funding we don't have any lack of capability.You can seen what other more Efficient govt agencies have achieved like ISRO with very little funding that they have,HAL & DRDO have the same Guys like ISRO becuz of the Mismanagement they have failed,but the good news is the new govt has boosted the funding of these orgs in their Maiden Budget & have promised to make them far more Efficient like ISRO

 

[nik22]

Post link only so i can open it on youtube... Directly its ban in pakistan..

Why would youtube be banned? Is facebook too?

 

[sancho]

The Problem in the Govt Run agencies are quite a few,Nepotism,Corruption,Lack of Funding we don't have any lack of capability.You can seen what other more Efficient govt agencies have achieved like ISRO with very little funding that they have,HAL & DRDO have the same Guys like ISRO becuz of the Mismanagement they have failed,but the good news is the new govt has boosted the funding of these orgs in their Maiden Budget & have promised to make them far more Efficient like ISRO

We do have a lack of capabilities and that is the real reason for the problems, not the excuse we often come up with lack of funding. Our main problems are lack of rational thinking and differentiating what we actually can do and what we "want" to be able to do, that's the biggest difference to China for example! They knew they can't offer an indigenous engine for their fighters, so kept the fighter and engine developments seperate. They used simple approaches to develop fighters, with constant improvement as the goal, not dreaming of developing many things that we simply were not able to deliver. We both lack experience in fighter design and development, which China can counter by their excellent industrial capability to an extend, but they need external input as well just as we do, but they know it and act according to that, we deny it and take that options only when we already messed things up.
We also lack project management skills, which also is a reason for many of the delays, because we simply have no clue on what to do when an how. And when we are right in between one project, we start dreaming of another one, without getting the first done!

The crucial point is, as you stated efficiencyand ADA, DRDO as well as HAL lack this capability, partially because we gave them monopoly, no need for accountability and so on. Nobody denies that we need indigenous developments and must support Indian companies, but not blindly, without asking then to deliver something in return, or tacking them accountable for failures. That's why the budget increase that DRDO now got, is pointless, if the government don't push them for more efficiency and accountability!

 

[Echo_419]

We do have a lack of capabilities and that is the real reason for the problems, not the excuse we often come up with lack of funding. Our main problems are lack of rational thinking and differentiating what we actually can do and what we "want" to be able to do, that's the biggest difference to China for example! They knew they can't offer an indigenous engine for their fighters, so kept the fighter and engine developments seperate. They used simple approaches to develop fighters, with constant improvement as the goal, not dreaming of developing many things that we simply were not able to deliver. We both lack experience in fighter design and development, which China can counter by their excellent industrial capability to an extend, but they need external input as well just as we do, but they know it and act according to that, we deny it and take that options only when we already messed things up.
We also lack project management skills, which also is a reason for many of the delays, because we simply have no clue on what to do when an how. And when we are right in between one project, we start dreaming of another one, without getting the first done!

The crucial point is, as you stated efficiencyand ADA, DRDO as well as HAL lack this capability, partially because we gave them monopoly, no need for accountability and so on. Nobody denies that we need indigenous developments and must support Indian companies, but not blindly, without asking then to deliver something in return, or tacking them accountable for failures. That's why the budget increase that DRDO now got, is pointless, if the government don't push them for more efficiency and accountability!

I think I covered all that when i said Corruption & Management,But very great points man

 

[MilSpec]

We do have a lack of capabilities and that is the real reason for the problems, not the excuse we often come up with lack of funding. Our main problems are lack of rational thinking and differentiating what we actually can do and what we "want" to be able to do, that's the biggest difference to China for example! They knew they can't offer an indigenous engine for their fighters, so kept the fighter and engine developments seperate. They used simple approaches to develop fighters, with constant improvement as the goal, not dreaming of developing many things that we simply were not able to deliver. We both lack experience in fighter design and development, which China can counter by their excellent industrial capability to an extend, but they need external input as well just as we do, but they know it and act according to that, we deny it and take that options only when we already messed things up.
We also lack project management skills, which also is a reason for many of the delays, because we simply have no clue on what to do when an how. And when we are right in between one project, we start dreaming of another one, without getting the first done!

The crucial point is, as you stated efficiencyand ADA, DRDO as well as HAL lack this capability, partially because we gave them monopoly, no need for accountability and so on. Nobody denies that we need indigenous developments and must support Indian companies, but not blindly, without asking then to deliver something in return, or tacking them accountable for failures. That's why the budget increase that DRDO now got, is pointless, if the government don't push them for more efficiency and accountability!

Hey @sancho , What do you think of MoD's performance in Indian indigenous defense capability paradigm. I would like to know your views on MoD.

 

[Dillinger]

Hey @sancho , What do you think of MoD's performance in Indian indigenous defense capability paradigm. I would like to know your views on MoD.

Actually, how many people can, in detail, describe the role that the MoD plays structurally and policy wise in the defence industrial setup? As in do they even know the regulations, rules, standards and skulduggery involved.

Ask any of them if they can provide details of the re-tendering policies (as in the specifics, what is the MoD SOP on this).

 

[MilSpec]

Actually, how many people can, in detail, describe the role that the MoD plays structurally and policy wise in the defence industrial setup? As in do they even know the regulations, rules, standards and skulduggery involved.

Ask any of them if they can provide details of the re-tendering policies (as in the specifics, what is the MoD SOP on this).

The reason being, we all have very specific views on D-Psu organisation, thus wanted to know of the views on MoD too

 

[sancho]

Hey @sancho , What do you think of MoD's performance in Indian indigenous defense capability paradigm. I would like to know your views on MoD.

We have discussed this basically many times, although in different seperated areas. I think MoD (UPA) was pushing indigenous defence industry, be it by giving the PSUs support as well as inviting private companies to start developing or forming JV's. The problem was, that they didn't guided the industry, they just gave them the market and let the industry do what they wanted, which translated into PSUs jumping into projects that are not necessary for the forces and above their capabilities and privat companies simply rejecting chances for their own interests. Only in the recent years a tougher stand against the PSUs came up and I hoped that the new government would follow that, if not increase the grip, to get more accountability.
If you see ministers checking when officers arrive to their duties in the ministries, it should also be possible to check if ADA, DRDO and HAL deliver what they promised and at what time. In any case, they have to tackle the accountability problem!

In general, we see good work in the indigenous naval sector, possibly the most successful one, we see good work at avionics and EW, the basic level of IA's vehicle requirements (jeeps, trucks...) seems to be covered by indigenous industry in a good way too and in the aero sector the Dhruv is actually a success story, sadly the only one.

What the NDA MoD now is trying to do, basically seems to invite more foreign players to India and increase manufacturing, which is the right thing to do, especially now since they limited they remain to give the Indian industry control. They also clearly increased the budget of DRDO and OFB, which is a sign to help, but at the end of the day, more money is not the solution, without getting more efficient. I welcome if HAL can sell it's shares and get more money to invest, but it's not the lack of money that had delayed HTT40 and that put HJT36 in jeopardy. Just like a higher budget for DRDO won't make them suddenly fix the problems of LCA, Kaveri or the indigenous fighter radars.

 

[MilSpec]

We have discussed this basically many times, although in different seperated areas. I think MoD (UPA) was pushing indigenous defence industry, be it by giving the PSUs support as well as inviting private companies to start developing or forming JV's. The problem was, that they didn't guided the industry, they just gave them the market and let the industry do what they wanted, which translated into PSUs jumping into projects that are not necessary for the forces and above their capabilities and privat companies simply rejecting chances for their own interests. Only in the recent years a tougher stand against the PSUs came up and I hoped that the new government would follow that, if not increase the grip, to get more accountability.
If you see ministers checking when officers arrive to their duties in the ministries, it should also be possible to check if ADA, DRDO and HAL deliver what they promised and at what time. In any case, they have to tackle the accountability problem!

In general, we see good work in the indigenous naval sector, possibly the most successful one, we see good work at avionics and EW, the basic level of IA's vehicle requirements (jeeps, trucks...) seems to be covered by indigenous industry in a good way too and in the aero sector the Dhruv is actually a success story, sadly the only one.

What the NDA MoD now is trying to do, basically seems to invite more foreign players to India and increase manufacturing, which is the right thing to do, especially now since they limited they remain to give the Indian industry control. They also clearly increased the budget of DRDO and OFB, which is a sign to help, but at the end of the day, more money is not the solution, without getting more efficient. I welcome if HAL can sell it's shares and get more money to invest, but it's not the lack of money that had delayed HTT40 and that put HJT36 in jeopardy. Just like a higher budget for DRDO won't make them suddenly fix the problems of LCA, Kaveri or the indigenous fighter radars.

With MoD, the standards to which procurement is held is perplexing to me.
Arjun has to go through field trials, T72 and T90 doesn't.
Leyland and Tata trucks have to go through trials and evaluations, Tatra doesn't, and is evaluated after procurement.
Insas, kalantak, Minsas, Mciws have to go through trials, but CXstorm doesn't
Astra 1/II has to go through trials and evaluations but , Mica doesn't.
Dhanush has to go through trials and evaluation but Bofors Haubits FH77 never did,
Nag has to go through evaluations, but Kornet and Konkurs do not.
And then procurement of Polish bumar WZT 3 armored recovery vehicles and the logic behind it's procurement has not been clear when poland itself has only 20 of these and seems like the army doesn't want them either.


There is no doubt that HAL, DRDO, and other D-PSU's have lacklustre performance in manufacturing, R&D and Program management. Which leads us to look at the track record of MoD's performance in procurement. MMRCA is legendary, SPG delayed, Light Howitzers delayed, Barak delayed, Milan delayed, Spyder delayed, Most Artillery systems delayed, Scorpene delayed, Apache delayed, Chinook Delayed, Strategic Tanker delayed, Doesn't such delays atleast in direct procurement raise any question on efficiency of the MoD? Or am I missing something?

Indian agencies seem to held to a different standard during development and procurement, the only organisation which seems to have figured out the amethod for satisfactory acceptance of MoD might be BEML. Do you think it would help indegenious development in DRDO and HAL if they started to allocate some finite amount to pay off MoD's unofficial fees as done by Bofors, Tatra, Augusta etc. Is it the lack od adaptability of these organisations to deal with MoD which serving as a self defeating issue for D-PSU's?

 

[sancho]

With MoD, the standards to which procurement is held is perplexing to me...

Because you forget the important part, the development! Indian products are developed according to the requirements of Indian forces, therefor must fulfill the development goals!
Foreign products are developed to other requirements and if our forces feels the need to procure them, all they can do is, set up a certain minimum requirement and compare which foreign products fulfill it the most.
Astra is a missile developed for our forces with a certain set of goals, MICA is a procurement meant for the Mirage 2000 upgrade and all we can do here, is to check if there is an alternative, if not we simply take it of course, especially since it's integrated and proven. And all howitzer procurements today are done with live evaluations too, so comparing Dhanush with the procurements of the decades old FH77 is moot, just as SPIKE or Javelin ATGMs were evaluated today too.

There is no doubt that HAL, DRDO, and other D-PSU's have lacklustre performance in manufacturing, R&D and Program management. Which leads us to look at the track record of MoD's

Why? Why do we need to distract from the problem and divert the attention to others? Why not deal with it directly and try to solve it? Does it make HAL or DRDO any better in project management when they point out mistakes of MoD? Heck DRDO is even pointing fingers at HAL to distract from their own failures and so on, but all these blame games doesn't make India and Indian defence industry any better. We have problems, let us try to solve it and not find excuses!

The rest is more than moot, since you are trying to blame MoD for production delays of the Indian industry for the Scorpenes, for scams in the howitzer competitions created by IA and in MMRCA even for delays created by Dassault. As stated above, blaming to distract from the real problems doesn't help!

 

[MilSpec]

The rest is more than moot, since you are trying to blame MoD for production delays of the Indian industry for the Scorpenes, for scams in the howitzer competitions created by IA and in MMRCA even for delays created by Dassault. As stated above, blaming to distract from the real problems doesn't help!

So MoD's performance has been stellar and D-PSu's are the real gomers, correct?

 

[sancho]

So MoD's performance has been stellar and D-PSu's are the real gomers, correct?

Come on man, don't act hurt only because I want you to not just do the usual blame game, since that is not helping. I stated in the earlier post where the problems of MoD are and I often criticized them for mistakes as you know, the only thing I don't do is, to see everything either in black or white! Not everything MoD does or did is wrong, not everything UPA or NDA does or did is wrong, not everything DRDO or HAL does or did is wrong and the same goes for the forces or the private industry and so on. But if there is a problem, we need to take those accountable, that caused it! MoD for wrong policies like allowing monopoly for DRDO and HAL, the forces for corruption and inefficient competitions, IA for the least effective procurement policy of all forces, DRDO and HAL for a track record of delayed developments and not fulfilled promises..., we simply can't always divert the blame for failures and move on to the next development.

 

[Echo_419]

With MoD, the standards to which procurement is held is perplexing to me.
Arjun has to go through field trials, T72 and T90 doesn't.
Leyland and Tata trucks have to go through trials and evaluations, Tatra doesn't, and is evaluated after procurement.
Insas, kalantak, Minsas, Mciws have to go through trials, but CXstorm doesn't
Astra 1/II has to go through trials and evaluations but , Mica doesn't.
Dhanush has to go through trials and evaluation but Bofors Haubits FH77 never did,
Nag has to go through evaluations, but Kornet and Konkurs do not.
And then procurement of Polish bumar WZT 3 armored recovery vehicles and the logic behind it's procurement has not been clear when poland itself has only 20 of these and seems like the army doesn't want them either.


There is no doubt that HAL, DRDO, and other D-PSU's have lacklustre performance in manufacturing, R&D and Program management. Which leads us to look at the track record of MoD's performance in procurement. MMRCA is legendary, SPG delayed, Light Howitzers delayed, Barak delayed, Milan delayed, Spyder delayed, Most Artillery systems delayed, Scorpene delayed, Apache delayed, Chinook Delayed, Strategic Tanker delayed, Doesn't such delays atleast in direct procurement raise any question on efficiency of the MoD? Or am I missing something?

Indian agencies seem to held to a different standard during development and procurement, the only organisation which seems to have figured out the amethod for satisfactory acceptance of MoD might be BEML. Do you think it would help indegenious development in DRDO and HAL if they started to allocate some finite amount to pay off MoD's unofficial fees as done by Bofors, Tatra, Augusta etc. Is it the lack od adaptability of these organisations to deal with MoD which serving as a self defeating issue for D-PSU's?

You have some valid points even the Chinese compromised on the quality front & here we are today when they are one of the largest exporters of Arms & Ammunition & we are the biggest Importers,Hopefully the new Govt will Bring a change to this trend.

 

[MilSpec]

I stated in the earlier post where the problems of MoD are and I often criticized them for mistakes as you know, the only thing I don't do is, to see everything either in black or white! Not everything MoD does or did is wrong, not everything UPA or NDA does or did is wrong, not everything DRDO or HAL does or did is wrong and the same goes for the forces or the private industry and so on.

But that is not what majority of posts indicate, the blame more or less is heavy handed towards drdo, or Hal and alike, and seldom is MoD held accountable for any of it's actions.

Going back to MMRCA, evaluation though however well intention-ed was not properly managed by IAF and MoD, yes LCA delays have been due to ADA/HAL/Drdo and lack of technological base in India, but sqdn deficit is not helped by MoD's extreme delay in approving the MMRCA, if rafales have been selected then atleast the fly away part should have been already been in place and first two sqdn's already in production, but we haven't seen any movement in that either.

And lets see some spine in MoD, Fire a bunch of non-performing managers and directors in HAL, hire new talent at good salaries from Boeing, and around the world. Change things, I dont care if MoD wants to follow it's corrupt practices, but it needs to shake up things. make the PSU's perform, take a page out of DoD's book. Do something atleast.

Astra is a missile developed for our forces with a certain set of goals, MICA is a procurement meant for the Mirage 2000 upgrade and all we can do here, is to check if there is an alternative, if not we simply take it of course, especially since it's integrated and proven. And all howitzer procurements today are done with live evaluations too, so comparing Dhanush with the procurements of the decades old FH77 is moot, just as SPIKE or Javelin ATGMs were evaluated today too.

Do you see the free pass you are giving to MoD in your post, FH77 was not the IA but the MoD then led by the DM and PM Mr Gandhi. As far as ATGM's Konkurs is as recent as 2012, so it the WZT3 Recovery vehicles and Tatra -vectra. This is the double standard I am referring to. I am not asking for free pass to drdo or hal, but IA is happy with VZ58, but not with OFB Ak variant, why? How much of an operation difference does short stroke piston make. I have shot both of them and the difference is negligible. MoD clears M46S- Israeli upgrade without evaluation and the gun blows up. Whereas the same upgrade on m46 to convert it to 155mm called the Metamorphosis is provided by OFB and MoD doesn't show any interest, and no one blinks an eyelid. This is the double standard.