Missile Strike Above LOC

[Windjammer]

We will agree to disagree here.

The answer to your question is YES. The AMRAAM will rise to an altitude and then home in from above.

And this 15 degree theory was valid until AIM-7 Sparrow if I recall correctly. I suggest you should cross check this with a viper pilot or weapons engineer if you can. I'm certain about my information since I've been given first hand account of how things went on 27th.

The info was shared with me also by a pioneer viper driver and i don't believe PAF ever had the AIM-7 in it's inventory.

 

[airomerix]

The info was shared with me also by a pioneer viper driver and i don't believe PAF ever had the AIM-7 in it's inventory.

Its easy now.

Please refer to the video below.

You see how high the missile rises? Gets impossible to even see. A video documentary answer to your argument.

 

[Arsalan]

@CriticalThought No need to get personal and insulting.

Please continue with the discussion in a sensible manner.

P.S. you and @airomerix have actually shared one same video to support your argument.

 

[SIPRA]

Instead of habitually taking pot shots, why don't you enlighten us with your esteemed knowledge.

This habit of taking potshots, these Indian posters have learnt from their marvelous air force.

 

[CriticalThought]

@CriticalThought No need to get personal and insulting.

Please continue with the discussion in a sensible manner.

P.S. you and @airomerix have actually shared one same video to support your argument.

My first video was inadvertently the same as his, but it contrasted the various launches of AMRAAM.

 

[Arsalan]

My first video was inadvertently the same as his, but it contrasted the various launches of AMRAAM.

Noted. Please share that video again and continue with the discussion but lets try to do it is a civil manner please.

 

[Windjammer]

The following sequence is enough to confirm that the AMRAAM doesn't home in from above the target.!!

 

[litman]

The splash of Su30 from Fox3 will be shared at the appropriate time... poor second fox3 wanted to get a piece of the pie too but the first fox3 ate all of the pie

off topic but sharing of that "splash" must be before india -pak world cup match just to divert the focus from the upcoming splash 3 by the indian team against pak in england.

 

[airomerix]

Lets make it easier for everyone to understand.

The following extracts are from AMRAAM's performance review.

<Document Start>

5.1 Scenario 1 - Estimated real world scenario

The missile is travelling at Mach 0.83 and 6km above sea level. It launches and accelerates forwards
for 1s before it begins a 15o climb, levelling off at 13km ASL (Above Sea Level). It maintained this
ballistic trajectory before angling itself down to intercept at target point at 6km ASL with a missile
speed of Mach 0.9.
See Figure 28.

Below Points about the first scenario

• The missile at a 15o climb was unable to level off at 13km ASL in the simulation. Instead it chose 14km ASL as the most energy efficient levelling altitude for this angle.
• It required 21o dive in order to make the intercept altitude and speed.
• It made this intercept at a range of 60km. This is much further than the comparable 5000m ASL straight line shot (~35km effective range).

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 6 km above sea level. Climbs up to 14 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level.

5.2 Scenario 2 - Estimated maximum possible performance

Using what was learnt above, the next test examined the maximum possible range of the missile in
realistic scenarios at missile parameter limits. The missile was launched at 13km at Mach 1.5 and
began its climb to 22km. It maintains this altitude before descending at angle that causes an
intersection at 6km at Mach 0.9
See Figure 29 below

Point about the second scenario

•  The ascent angle is still relatively low.
•  It demonstrates that the theoretical maximum realistic range of the missile on a stationary point is approximately 90km.

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 13 km above sea level. Climbs up to 22 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level. ​

5.3 Scenario 3 - Estimated low altitude performance
As a stark contrast, a similar scenario was attempted at 500m. The launch velocity was Mach 1.1 and
the missile climbed to 6km before starting its descent; intercepting a point at 500m with Mach 0.9
remaining velocity.
See Figure 30 below
Points about the third scenario
​

• 
  
  
  • It was unobtainable. The missile could not climb up to 6km fast enough and then dive back down in order to hit the target point without being less energy efficient than flying straight.
  • Instead the loft altitude was ignored and the target parameters were all that were considered.
  • As a result the missile climbed up to ~11km ASL before descending back down onto the target.
  • The missile fired at low altitudes against a stationary point has a range of ~ 45km

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 0.5 km above sea level. Climbs up to 6 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 0.5 km above sea level.
​

If anyone requires this document then I think there are plenty of other sources on the internet. Or you guys can always ask around. Google is your bestfriend.

Please feel free to ask questions.​

The following sequence is enough to confirm that the AMRAAM doesn't home in from above the target.!!

Please refer to my last posts. These images don't show us the complete fight trajectory. I never said the missile hits the cockpit from above.

 

[Arsalan]

The following sequence is enough to confirm that the AMRAAM doesn't home in from above the target.!!

Winddy, boss should the argument here be:

Will AIM-120 ALWAYS home-in from top of target, as @airomerix seem to have implied
Can AIM-120 follow different approach path to its target, including one from top, as @airomerix seem to have shared and from behind or side etc, as your pictures above and a video shared by @CriticalThought present.


It seems the AIM-120 can follow different paths to the target and do not necessarily have to home in from top. Views @airomerix


Guys, is it just me or you too can see what looks like hint of a few minutes old smoke trail here as well?

Lets make it easier for everyone to understand.

The following extracts are from AMRAAM's performance review.

<Document Start>

5.1 Scenario 1 - Estimated real world scenario

The missile is travelling at Mach 0.83 and 6km above sea level. It launches and accelerates forwards
for 1s before it begins a 15o climb, levelling off at 13km ASL (Above Sea Level). It maintained this
ballistic trajectory before angling itself down to intercept at target point at 6km ASL with a missile
speed of Mach 0.9.
See Figure 28.

Below Points about the first scenario

• The missile at a 15o climb was unable to level off at 13km ASL in the simulation. Instead it chose 14km ASL as the most energy efficient levelling altitude for this angle.
• It required 21o dive in order to make the intercept altitude and speed.
• It made this intercept at a range of 60km. This is much further than the comparable 5000m ASL straight line shot (~35km effective range).

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 6 km above sea level. Climbs up to 14 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level.

5.2 Scenario 2 - Estimated maximum possible performance

Using what was learnt above, the next test examined the maximum possible range of the missile in
realistic scenarios at missile parameter limits. The missile was launched at 13km at Mach 1.5 and
began its climb to 22km. It maintains this altitude before descending at angle that causes an
intersection at 6km at Mach 0.9
See Figure 29 below

Point about the second scenario

•  The ascent angle is still relatively low.
•  It demonstrates that the theoretical maximum realistic range of the missile on a stationary point is approximately 90km.

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 13 km above sea level. Climbs up to 22 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level. ​

5.3 Scenario 3 - Estimated low altitude performance
As a stark contrast, a similar scenario was attempted at 500m. The launch velocity was Mach 1.1 and
the missile climbed to 6km before starting its descent; intercepting a point at 500m with Mach 0.9
remaining velocity.
See Figure 30 below
Points about the third scenario
​

• 
  
  
  • It was unobtainable. The missile could not climb up to 6km fast enough and then dive back down in order to hit the target point without being less energy efficient than flying straight.
  • Instead the loft altitude was ignored and the target parameters were all that were considered.
  • As a result the missile climbed up to ~11km ASL before descending back down onto the target.
  • The missile fired at low altitudes against a stationary point has a range of ~ 45km

ELABORATION: Missile launches at 0.5 km above sea level. Climbs up to 6 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 0.5 km above sea level.
​

If anyone requires this document then I think there are plenty of other sources on the internet. Or you guys can always ask around. Google is your bestfriend.

Please feel free to ask questions.​

Please refer to my last posts. These images don't show us the complete fight trajectory. I never said the missile hits the cockpit from above.

Again, the question is, is this a specific scenario where AIM120 climbs up and then home in on the target from above or is it what it will ALWAYS do? As per my understanding, its something that the missile can do but not something it will ALWAYS have to do.

 

[airomerix]

Winddy, boss should the argument here be:

Will AIM-120 ALWAYS home-in from top of target, as @airomerix seem to have implied
Can AIM-120 follow different approach path to its target, including one from top, as @airomerix seem to have shared and from behind or side etc, as your pictures above and a video shared by @CriticalThought present.


It seems the AIM-120 can follow different paths to the target and do not necessarily have to home in from top. Views @airomerix


Guys, is it just me or you too can see what looks like hint of a few minutes old smoke trail here as well?
View attachment 563023


Again, the question is, is this a specific scenario where AIM120 climbs up and then home in on the target from above or is it what it will ALWAYS do? As per my understanding, its something that the missile can do but not something it will ALWAYS have to do.

AMRAAM is programmed to climb up for various reasons.

In all 3 parameters, low altitude, high altitude and level flight, The AMRAAM has climbed up and homed in from above as you can see.

This is a characteristic specific to AMRAAM. And this is what makes it 'THE AMRAAM'.

 

[Windjammer]

@Arsalan . This is the detail i described in the OP, the trail above the power lines.

 

[airomerix]

Also, homing in from above doesn't mean it will hit the target on the fuselage or cockpit. It means it will climb up and then descend to a degree where it hits the target from a positioned angle.

 

[Arsalan]

AMRAAM is programmed to climb up for various reasons.

In all 3 parameters, low altitude, high altitude and level flight, The AMRAAM has climbed up and homed in from above as you can see.

This is a characteristic specific to AMRAAM. And this is what makes it 'THE AMRAAM'.

Again sir, are you saying it is programed to ALWAYS follow this pattern? It cannot home-in on to target from its side and/or behind specially when it have closed the gap on target to a few hundred meters only? Is the "from-top" ONLY approach to target even at the final moments?

 

[Talon]

Again sir, are you saying it is programed to ALWAYS follow this pattern? It cannot home-in on to target from its side and/or behind specially when it have closed the gap on target to a few hundred meters only? Is the "from-top" ONLY approach to target even at the final moments?

Why would someone use BVR when away few hundred meters from target?

AMRAAM comes from above. @airomerix has given enough examples to prove that.