“Minority Islam” in Muslim Majority Bangladesh: The Violent Road

[Zabaniyah]

Some Indians have put the article up on facebook. Not sure what they are trying to prove.

Let's not give them too much attention.

The AL are extremists themselves. Secular extremists and a never ending black hole of wealth and power.

 

[Qasibr]

Most of the Indian Hindus think India is an Anti-Hindu state and more privileges are given to Muslims. Secularization is more to do with removing the religious things from the country. Is this work ? Well, worked in India. In India, Hindu temples are managed by Atheist. Vande Matram is not as national anthem because Muslims opposed it. More Freedom to Muslims in religious activities. 10 things happens against Hindus but government do nothing. But 1 voice from Muslims and government start working on that.

In Turkey, 95%+ are Muslims but Turkey is secular country and doing very well.

In USA, 95%+ are Christians but USA is secular country and did well in last 100 years.

In Japan, 80%+ people are Atheist and just follow Karmas of Buddhism. Government supported Atheism and Japan is most developed nation in the world. China and Russia too.

Red - State with no state religion.
Yellow - State with state religion.
Grey - Moderate religious state.

Even in above state religion category, Most of the countries are Secular except Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, KSA, etc. Iran and KSA hate each other and both have Crude/N. gas. What Bangladesh want to become ? Pakistan ? If religion is not important for government, Then it's good for Bangladesh. Just my personal opinion. By the way, Bangladesh is already moderate religious state which makes in somewhat in religious state category. Why Secular state is followed in 90% world ?

Historically, Secular country did much better than religious state. Many examples are there. One should be happy with Secularization as it helps country in long term (reduces religious conflict and increase nationalism among all people and focus also increase in economy)

Secularism has nothing to do with success. Success, in history, goes around in turns. All the countries in Europe were deplorable, unclean, frequent plague due to a complete lack of hygene, when the countries in yellow were leading the world in knowledge and wisdom. Read the history of renaissance, which started after the fall of Al-Andalusia, from where Europe re-learnt "modern" knowledge, after which books of Arab scholars were used across European universities for centuries..

Even now, look at what secularism does to the western world. Highest divorce rates, broken homes with children living with step-parents(and high teen suicide rates, which are directly connected to this). The economy gets wrecked when morality is removed from the equation, politicians are ready and eager to be bought by the highest bidder and agree to every demand these pressure groups make(these groups also back politicians with huge campaign contributions, buying them immense influence). Also, these secular countries also wage so many wars, often ganging up and attacking poor countries that don't stand a chance, and they do that every few years... Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Honduras, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, etc, list goes on and on. Even without waging wars, they have tools like the IMF that provide billions in loans to corrupt governments knowing that the money is being funelled to Swiss banks. The corrupt politicians/dictators then follow IMF's dictates very obediently, and the people end up under immense amounts of debt for decades to come.

So I'm not sure what you're proposing as a successful model is really working that well, it seems to be crumbling all around.

 

[HZR2011]

Secular= No state Religion..

ANd the fact is .....Most of the secular countries are developed and are in peace ..ex: japan,india,USA,canada,UK,EU,Russia,S.kora,thailand,sri lanka,north and south america..

And non-secular counties are still in 15th century ex:- pakistan,iraq,iran,afghanistan,etc etc

And let me tell u one thing guys...WORLD WILL BE A PEACEFUL PLACE ONLY WHEN THE PEOPLE BECOME ATHEISTS AND BELEIVE IN LOGIC AND TECHNOLOGY AND SCIENCE rather than some delesional gods,invisible gods and some shi**y practices....

So Bangladessh...want peace and prosperity choose NO state religion otherwise,suffer the same fate as our neighbour is suffering with all those extremists and fundamentalists with ak-47 and suicide bombers..

ANd wake up ...learn to lead a life by using ur brain not doing as some one centuries back had said..this is not 15th century

 

[Qasibr]

@HR

Thank you for the interesting analysis. While it is understandable why you may feel that secularism/atheism is the way to progress and religion is illogical(invisible Gods, weird practics... ), I must disagree with you there.

I'm a Muslim, only because there's alot of scientific evidence to back up many of the things it says. Most people only like the illusion of being scientific. They think they're being "scientific" when all they're doing is re-affirming their own prejudices and patting themselves over their backs. You're right in the need to "using our brain" and thinking - If you really look at it scientifically, the fact that religions like Islam(and there are other religions that got this right as well) predicted so many things accurately, like accurately describing the creation of the stars, the formation of mountains on Earth, the Big Bang and things about the origin of the Universe, that it's very difficult to look at all this scientifically and just dismiss all that - that'd be emotional and unscientific.

If you're really interested in looking at this scientifically, and not just from a western perspective which only tries to appear scientific but often has it's own hidden agendas, I recommend this Documentary - it looks at religion pretty scientifically and logical people can then draw their own conclusions. They just present facts and figures that the media likes to gloss, probably because they can't logically counter that.

Most religions tolerate other religions and belief-systems, non-Muslims have been living in Muslim nations for millenniums. Same for Muslims in non-Muslim countries. These secular countries have killed way more people than religion ever did, contrary to the propaganda myth that the media likes to forward. Never before the advent of secularism, were wars fought like the WW1 and WW2 in which cities full of civilians were targeted, millions upon millions of casualties. Religion gave ethics, even in war. Islam is very stringent about non-combatants in war, even for non-Muslims there were codes of chivalry that people proudly respected and adhered to. Wars were fought outside cities and towns, between real armies, in order to protect the civilians. Often, entire wars would have casualties ranging in the dozens.

These secular western superpowers have literally maimed and killed on a global scale. First, they had this colonization craze where they "conquered" poor people living far across the globe, no good reason or excuse. They said they were spreading "civilization" by looting and plundering resources, and forcing the natives to live according to European customs. Even now, they wage war upon war, the US and it's NATO allied posse have attacked over FIFTY countries since WW2, all of them poor 3rd world countries. They never attack and fight fair fights, always attacking the weak. And yet, their all-powerful media, which has such a powerful role in shaping opinions and perceptions on a global scale, presents them as peaceful countries which only want to do good. The facts SCIENTIFICALLY show their claims to be hollow.

 

[livingdead]

@HR

Thank you for the interesting analysis. While it is understandable why you may feel that secularism/atheism is the way to progress and religion is illogical(invisible Gods, weird practics... ), I must disagree with you there.

I'm a Muslim, only because there's alot of scientific evidence to back up many of the things it says. Most people only like the illusion of being scientific. They think they're being "scientific" when all they're doing is re-affirming their own prejudices and patting themselves over their backs. You're right in the need to "using our brain" and thinking - If you really look at it scientifically, the fact that religions like Islam(and there are other religions that got this right as well) predicted so many things accurately, like accurately describing the creation of the stars, the formation of mountains on Earth, the Big Bang and things about the origin of the Universe, that it's very difficult to look at all this scientifically and just dismiss all that - that'd be emotional and unscientific.

If you're really interested in looking at this scientifically, and not just from a western perspective which only tries to appear scientific but often has it's own hidden agendas, I recommend this Documentary - it looks at religion pretty scientifically and logical people can then draw their own conclusions. They just present facts and figures that the media likes to gloss, probably because they can't logically counter that.

Most religions tolerate other religions and belief-systems, non-Muslims have been living in Muslim nations for millenniums. Same for Muslims in non-Muslim countries. These secular countries have killed way more people than religion ever did, contrary to the propaganda myth that the media likes to forward. Never before the advent of secularism, were wars fought like the WW1 and WW2 in which cities full of civilians were targeted, millions upon millions of casualties. Religion gave ethics, even in war. Islam is very stringent about non-combatants in war, even for non-Muslims there were codes of chivalry that people proudly respected and adhered to. Wars were fought outside cities and towns, between real armies, in order to protect the civilians. Often, entire wars would have casualties ranging in the dozens.

These secular western superpowers have literally maimed and killed on a global scale. First, they had this colonization craze where they "conquered" poor people living far across the globe, no good reason or excuse. They said they were spreading "civilization" by looting and plundering resources, and forcing the natives to live according to European customs. Even now, they wage war upon war, the US and it's NATO allied posse have attacked over FIFTY countries since WW2, all of them poor 3rd world countries. They never attack and fight fair fights, always attacking the weak. And yet, their all-powerful media, which has such a powerful role in shaping opinions and perceptions on a global scale, presents them as peaceful countries which only want to do good. The facts SCIENTIFICALLY show their claims to be hollow.

Most such claims by people of religion has been found to be blatant lies, basically trying to piggyback on popularity of science.
If random quotation from books stretched beyond their original meaning can retrospectively be applied to scientific discovery, then we are better off ditching supercomputers and rely on nostradamous for weather prediction(after they happened of course)

This is not to deny that people of all religion( or non religion) have contributed to scintific discovery.

 

[Qasibr]

Hmm... Again, some interesting points raised here. You have to talk specifics though, you can't make a logical point while being vague. Which blatant lies specifically are you talking about, and what scientific facts? Which random quotations stretched beyond their original meaning? You need "quote" numbers(verse numbers) and references. If you're logical and correct, the facts should support the thesis.

Like I specifically mentioned geological elements like the creation of mountains. Lets take the lowest point on the surface of the Earth. There was a battle between the Romans and the Persians, and the Quran specifically mentioned that the Romans were defeated in the lowEST land(Surah Rum, 1-4). Modern geological surveys proved that to be right. Another thing is the Pharoah's body(from Prophet Moses' time), the Quran mentions that his body was preserved as a sign to people who came after him(Surah Yunus, 91-92). Over a thousand years after the Quran's revelation, the Pharoah's body was discovered, remarkably preserved.

And there's many more things, everything from the origin of the Universe to minute details about Earth's geology. If are honestly interested in a scientific argument, you should take a look at the facts: Miracles of the Qur'an - Harun Yahya. If you're only interested in repeating the media's propaganda and bias, the facts are only uncomfortable and get in the way.

The examples I gave(and there are many more in the link above, as well as that documentary I linked in my other post above), are concrete. They aren't vague and it's not like the words are being changed or twisted. If anything, the wisdom of the words chosen, are revealed with the passage of time. Like the lowest point on the planet verse - for centuries that confused translators, and they loosely translated that as a "low" point because the battle was very severe. Later on, geology showed that the Quran's choice of words was actually amazingly precise.

 

[Rusty]

What most people don't understand, or don't want to understand (mostly likely because they hate Islam) is that an Islamic state is inherently secular. All minorities and religions have the same right to practice freely.

"Secularism" as people understand it is basically the Wests reply to Christianity, but it is not an answer to Islam since we already have the safeguards in our religion.

And thus it is totally wrong to impose western ideology on a people who don't need, nor want it.

 

[livingdead]

What most people don't understand, or don't want to understand (mostly likely because they hate Islam) is that an Islamic state is inherently secular. All minorities and religions have the same right to practice freely.

"Secularism" as people understand it is basically the Wests reply to Christianity, but it is not an answer to Islam since we already have the safeguards in our religion.

And thus it is totally wrong to impose western ideology on a people who don't need, nor want it.

Can you expand the part that an Islamic state is inherently secular. Do you mean Quran or Islam has no say on working of the government?
The fact that secularism came from west does not make it wrong. So did democracy.
Secularism empowers religious minorities, and they have a equal say in the governance.
I am sure you will support secularism where muslims are minority.

 

[wild_fire1979]

Hmm... Again, some interesting points raised here. You have to talk specifics though, you can't make a logical point while being vague. Which blatant lies specifically are you talking about, and what scientific facts? Which random quotations stretched beyond their original meaning? You need "quote" numbers(verse numbers) and references. If you're logical and correct, the facts should support the thesis.

Like I specifically mentioned geological elements like the creation of mountains. Lets take the lowest point on the surface of the Earth. There was a battle between the Romans and the Persians, and the Quran specifically mentioned that the Romans were defeated in the lowEST land(Surah Rum, 1-4). Modern geological surveys proved that to be right. Another thing is the Pharoah's body(from Prophet Moses' time), the Quran mentions that his body was preserved as a sign to people who came after him(Surah Yunus, 91-92). Over a thousand years after the Quran's revelation, the Pharoah's body was discovered, remarkably preserved.

And there's many more things, everything from the origin of the Universe to minute details about Earth's geology. If are honestly interested in a scientific argument, you should take a look at the facts: Miracles of the Qur'an - Harun Yahya. If you're only interested in repeating the media's propaganda and bias, the facts are only uncomfortable and get in the way.

The examples I gave(and there are many more in the link above, as well as that documentary I linked in my other post above), are concrete. They aren't vague and it's not like the words are being changed or twisted. If anything, the wisdom of the words chosen, are revealed with the passage of time. Like the lowest point on the planet verse - for centuries that confused translators, and they loosely translated that as a "low" point because the battle was very severe. Later on, geology showed that the Quran's choice of words was actually amazingly precise.

I did read through the link you provided. I must sadly say that we are trying to find shapes in clouds. If I would have asked someone in the 16th century what they see in a cloud formation, they would have said something like a horse, mule, fairy. Ask the same question today and we might say a plane, car, Harry Potter??!

My point being, we interpret data based on the knowledge base of the time we are trying to interpret. If the knowledge base does not exist, you cannot interpret it to be something that is not common knowledge.

I feel the books like Quran, Bible, and other religious books as works of art. Same like famous paintings. People are free to derive whatever interpretation they can based on their own background and knowledge level. Different people may view the same painting and come up with different interpretation of what they see. The same is true for religious texts. You may want to interpret as scientific, but maybe the author just meant to describe a low lying area near his town (Like a river bed).

The essential difference is, science rejoices when proven incorrect. That is the notion behind it, cause every time its proven incorect, we move in the right direction. Cause someone has a better explanation to what we see.
Faith on the other hand becomes defensive and in some cases seeks vengeance when proven in-correct, that is because the whole idea is based on one word "Faith" you have to un-conditionally believe that it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth otherwise the illusion falls apart.

We should stop finding patterns in clouds and instead explore new avenues and ideas. That is what will take us forward as a species, not a piece of art written a millennium ago.

 

[Qasibr]

@wild_fire1979 Your talk about Harry Potter and cloud shapes is all very amusing, but it is not a concrete example or anything.Which Ayat/verses are you referring to specifically... you do not seem to have read the previous discussion on this thread. I gave specific examples above, to have a scientific, logical argument you have to give specific examples with references. Read the above posts and discussion, some of the things you raise have already been discussed.

On the other hand, "a big bang theory" in quran will go beyond any knowledge that was available during that period.
So can you please give the exact verse which can be linked to such theory here.

@hinduguy Thank you for bringing that up, I have an amateur/hobbyist interest in cosmology, one book that I'm currently reading is Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time", you might like this book too. You are absolutely right in that the Big Bang theory would go beyond the level of knowledge available during that period. The fact that the Quran unambiguously and explicitly mentions facts in support of this only-recently discovered scientific reality is something that scientifically shows how it's author knew stuff mankind wouldn't learn until a thousand years after.

You asked for an exact verse in reference to the Big Bang, and I'd like to answer your query there:

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.

This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy.
...
The stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.

HarunYahya.com/Miracles_of_the_Quran_p1_02.php

As you can see, the Verse isn't ambiguous, it isn't vague. It explicitly states the fact that the Universe is STEADILY expanding. Each and every word is very important and needs to be pondered over. The Quran has said this over a thousand years ago, the Verses haven't changed, this is the exact phrasing word-for-word. Even at the beginning of the 20th century, science believed the universe was static, and the Quran rejected that thesis a thousand years ago. Even in the times of the Holy Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), it was known that the Quran was a miracle, some of it's Ayat would be understood better with the passage of time. As mankind's knowledge grew, they'd be able to appreciate the wisdom of the Verses. The very fact that the Book unambiguously states this, logically shows that it's author knew things mankind wouldn't know for another thousand years.

@hinduguy seems like a pretty intelligent and scientific person, I've really enjoyed our discussion here .

 

[wild_fire1979]

@wild_fire1979 Your talk about Harry Potter and cloud shapes is all very amusing, but it is not a concrete example or anything.Which Ayat/verses are you referring to specifically... you do not seem to have read the previous discussion on this thread. I gave specific examples above, to have a scientific, logical argument you have to give specific examples with references. Read the above posts and discussion, some of the things you raise have already been discussed.

You asked for an exact verse in reference to the Big Bang, and I'd like to answer your query there:



HarunYahya.com/Miracles_of_the_Quran_p1_02.php

As you can see, the Verse isn't ambiguous, it isn't vague. It explicitly states the fact that the Universe is STEADILY expanding. Each and every word is very important and needs to be pondered over. The Quran has said this over a thousand years ago, the Verses haven't changed, this is the exact phrasing word-for-word. Even at the beginning of the 20th century, science believed the universe was static, and the Quran rejected that thesis a thousand years ago. Even in the times of the Holy Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), it was known that the Quran was a miracle, some of it's Ayat would be understood better with the passage of time. As mankind's knowledge grew, they'd be able to appreciate the wisdom of the Verses. The very fact that the Book unambiguously states this, logically shows that it's author knew things mankind wouldn't know for another thousand years.

Let me use the same example you quoted over here:

I am using the following URL for reference. The True Call - ISLAM - Quran Browser Quran 51:47

There are the following translations:

Abdullah Yusuf Ali - With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

Mufti Taqi Usmani - And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders.

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall - We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof).

Sahih International - And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

So you take an already ambiguous statement, which can then be interpreted in the following ways above. None of which in my view talk about the big bang but rather seems to point to the emptiness and vastness of the dark sky above and then you are pandering it off as an explanation to the big bang theory? - In essence you are proving my argument above that you are reading too much into an abstract statement which seems to talk more about the strength of god as opposed to a specific theory.

Plus, from what I have heard from my Muslim friends, that Quran was written in an ancient form of Arabic which has long been lost. What we have today is an approximate translation of the original script.

So unless you have a more definitive proof as opposed to mere interpretation, it remains what it is... An interpretation

 

[Qasibr]

Well this is a simple point that can easily be cleared up, logically. This is the Verse in Arabic(Surah Ad-Dhariyat, Ayat 47):

The Arabic can be difficult to read for some people, so here's the transliteration:

Wassamaa banaynahabi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoon

And here is a detailed analysis of the Arabic words in question:

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent.
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_02.php#1a

You are quoting translations, these are "interpretations" of the Quran. This Ayat in particular, has confused translators for centuries, because it was difficult to understand what Allah meant here by La-Moosiaoona, "expansion". Many people interpretted that by saying the Universe is a vast expanse, such a big place, etc. But the word La-Moosiaaoona literally means to expand, "La" lexically indicates the vastness/extent, of the expansion. You can examine the words and see what they exactly mean, if you are sincerely interested in the scientific truth, I'd urge and recommend that you look this up in an Arabic dictionary to verify. Or go on Arabic forums and ask around or something. A little research easily seperates the facts from vague notions.

The "interpretations" that these translations are, can be flawed. Their purpose isn't to provide a word-for-word translation(that wouldn't even make sense to non-Arabic readers), but to provide an "interpretation" of what these translators feel the Quran is trying to say, in an entirely different language with different vocabulary and idioms. That is why many different people translated and interpretted that Ayat differently, each trying their best to interpret what Allah might have meant by saying the universe is steadily expanding. Their work is not a literal translation, but an INTERPRETATION. If you look at the Arabic words and their actual meaning(and not an interpretation in a different language), that clears it up. And it is a scientific fact that the Quran is preserved in it's original Arabic since the time of the Holy Prophet. The Quran is written in Old Arabic, which is pretty similar to modern Arabic, but with slight changes - like Old English with words like "ye" instead of "you".

So you're right that the Quran is written in old Arabic, but the language is not lost. Many people take courses in Old Arabic, many universities in Arabic offer that. Courses in Quranic/old Arabic are available even in Pakistan, probably in India too.

 

[wild_fire1979]

Well this is a simple point that can easily be cleared up, logically. This is the Verse in Arabic(Surah Ad-Dhariyat, Ayat 47):

The Arabic can be difficult to read for some people, so here's the transliteration:

Wassamaa banaynahabi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoon

And here is a detailed analysis of the Arabic words in question:


You are quoting translations, these are "interpretations" of the Quran. This Ayat in particular, has confused translators for centuries, because it was difficult to understand what Allah meant here by La-Moosiaoona, "expansion". Many people interpretted that by saying the Universe is a vast expanse, such a big place, etc. But the word La-Moosiaaoona literally means to expand, "La" lexically indicates the vastness/extent, of the expansion. You can examine the words and see what they exactly mean, if you are sincerely interested in the scientific truth, I'd urge and recommend that you look this up in an Arabic dictionary to verify. Or go on Arabic forums and ask around or something. A little research easily seperates the facts from vague notions.

The "interpretations" that these translations are, can be flawed. Their purpose isn't to provide a word-for-word translation(that wouldn't even make sense to non-Arabic readers), but to provide an "interpretation" of what these translators feel the Quran is trying to say, in an entirely different language with different vocabulary and idioms. That is why many different people translated and interpretted that Ayat differently, each trying their best to interpret what Allah might have meant by saying the universe is steadily expanding. Their work is not a literal translation, but an INTERPRETATION. If you look at the Arabic words and their actual meaning(and not an interpretation in a different language), that clears it up. And it is a scientific fact that the Quran is preserved in it's original Arabic since the time of the Holy Prophet. The Quran is written in Old Arabic, which is pretty similar to modern Arabic, but with slight changes - like Old English with words like "ye" instead of "you".

So you're right that the Quran is written in old Arabic, but the language is not lost. Many people take courses in Old Arabic, many universities in Arabic offer that. Courses in Quranic/old Arabic are available even in Pakistan, probably in India too.

Quasibr, thanks for "your" interpretation. Cause the translation is in old Arabic and you seem to be interpreting as well (Correct me if my assertion is in-correct!)

Now, for the sake of our discussion, lets just say that "your" interpretation or shall I say the interpretation "you" choose to believe in (My friend who also happens to be a Muslim do not share your enthusiasm!) is correct. Can it also be possible that the writer of the verse may be mis-interpreting the movement of stars in the sky as expansion? Or are we bound to just stick to your version of the interpretation? If I have to stick to your interpretation and my interpretation has no room in this discussion, then we are definitely talking religion But..... and its a big but, there is room for a different interpretation, we come to a very precarious situation, we both need to provide irrefutable proof that what we state is the absolute truth. Unfortunately neither of us can at this time cause the original writer is not available for comment. Hence, it remains just that... An interpretation

 

[Rusty]

Can you expand the part that an Islamic state is inherently secular. Do you mean Quran or Islam has no say on working of the government?
The fact that secularism came from west does not make it wrong. So did democracy.
Secularism empowers religious minorities, and they have a equal say in the governance.
I am sure you will support secularism where muslims are minority.

Secular principals get their authority from the Constitution, which gives people rights.
The Quran is our constitution. It gives everyone their fair rights.

 

[Qasibr]

Quasibr, thanks for "your" interpretation. Cause the translation is in old Arabic and you seem to be interpreting as well (Correct me if my assertion is in-correct!)

Now, for the sake of our discussion, lets just say that "your" interpretation or shall I say the interpretation "you" choose to believe in (My friend who also happens to be a Muslim do not share your enthusiasm!) is correct. Can it also be possible that the writer of the verse may be mis-interpreting the movement of stars in the sky as expansion? Or are we bound to just stick to your version of the interpretation? If I have to stick to your interpretation and my interpretation has no room in this discussion, then we are definitely talking religion But..... and its a big but, there is room for a different interpretation, we come to a very precarious situation, we both need to provide irrefutable proof that what we state is the absolute truth. Unfortunately neither of us can at this time cause the original writer is not available for comment. Hence, it remains just that... An interpretation

You have to understand the difference between an interpretation and a translation. I'll use an allegory to illustrate what I mean.

Say in some English story like Jane Eyre, a character like Edward Rochester says, "The cat's out of the bag. I know everything". People who are familiar with English idioms and lexical structures would know what this means. But if you translate this into another language like Urdu/Hindu, suddenly it seems like we're talking about some cat that's escaped(billee in Urdu). So, people translate or interpret it into different languages, rather than transliterating word-for-word.

Now that we've cleared the difference between translations/interpretations, and transliterating/literal meaning, let's take another look at the example I gave. The Ayat/Verse in question is literally referring to expansion. The words at the end of the Ayat, La-MoosiAAoon, literally refer to expansion. This is not my interpretation, just like I can't interpret the noun "cat" to refer to the chair you're sitting on.

Various translations chose to interpret La-MoosiAAoon differently, in different languages. In English, some translations chose to interpret this to refer to the on-going continuation of the universe(Shakir), or the vastness of space(Yusuf Ali). They interpretted the Arabic as best as they could, to help the English-speaking reader understand the meaning of the Holy Quran. They interpret it to the best of their abilities, but their level of understanding can be limited, and with the passage of time, deeper meanings in the original Arabic wording can be found.

For example, the original Arabic in this example(Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Ayat 47) clearly and unequivocally refers to the EXPANDING universe, "La-MoosiAAoon".

Another similar example is how there was a battle between the Romans and the Persians in the dead-sea basin, the Romans suffered heavy casualties. The Quran referred to this battle as having occured at the lowest point. Translators loosely interpretted this as referring to the severity of the battle - it was a "low point" in history. Only in the 20th century, did modern geological instrumentation show that the point in question was indeed the lowest geographical point on the surface of the planet. Scientists were surprised to discover that the Pharoah's body(Pharoah, from Prophet Moses' era) was surprisingly well-preserved. The Quran also mentioned the Pharoah's body being preserved, as a sign for people to come after him.

This is pretty well-documented and easily-quantifiable stuff, you can read about it here. Islam is the most mis-understood religion on Earth, the west needs some baddie to vilify to use as an excuse for it's aggression, and rightnow it's Islam. Used to be that the "commies"(Soviet Russia) was to be blamed for all the evils on Earth. The "Jerries"(Germany) were evil before them, and then the "Huns were coming"(WW1 Axis forces, which the US vilified in the media to build up an excuse to attack them). Even hundreds of years ago, they were butchering Native Americans, spreading polio and other infections among them, all the while talking about how helpless they were against the "Injun", that fought with bows and arrows against western guns and cannons. So, this hatred and misconception about Muslims("towel-heads") is pretty understandable, it's just the way they work.