Messiach & the Pakistan's Urgent Need for A Turbine Engine

[volatile]

The biggest issue in building turbine is material or metallurgy at the moment the infrastructure is not there but hey in 1970 `s when we decided to build centrifuges which requires some composites beyond our imaginations we were able to do that ,It's just a priority and may be relying on Chinese expertise in this manner ,It is difficult for me to digest a nation rebuilding aircrafts to OEM standards from 70s onwards cant produce engine

 

[Armchair]

This lady is known to the senior members here who have worked with the military establishment. She is an expert in this field having worked for Pakistan including in the JF-17 project. She has worked for multiple major foreign companies including Thales and possibly Rolls Royce.

She is saying she has a plan to make turbine engines in Pakistan with a low investment and in minimal time.

This is the AQ Khan right here of jet engine manufacture. Have some sense and give her a chance.

She is saying the main reason this hasn't been developed is because of traitors who have consistently sabotaged this. There is no technological gap between centrifuge development and jet engine development.

 

[Armchair]

@messiach seeing you're back in the forum, please do comment on this if you can.

 

[My-Analogous]

Hi,

With every step of failure---you are getting closer to the step of success---.

I always love failure and it help me to become more batter hence increases my ability to understand batter

@messiach seeing you're back in the forum, please do comment on this if you can.

She is one of jewel in this forum and we learn alot from her

 

[GriffinsRule]

Pakistanis on general like short cuts in everything. They would rather buy something cheap and of questionable use then to do the hard work themselves. That is why I dont see Pakistan developing its own turbine engines or anything that ambitious in the foreseeable future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi wish you had not dragged India into this, but since you have dragged it nontheless, let me clarify couple of things for you-
Engine development is perhaps more complicated than developing entire aircraft. There are of course failures and shortcomings in the development process especially if that is being attempted for the first time. India is no exception. I visited the def expo couple of days back and interacted with guys at GTRE--the lab responsible solely for gas turbines in India. Some of the points I wish to highlight are-

1) India spent close to $700mn on various gas turbine related development plans. Kaveri is not the first nor the last in the efforts to design a gas turbine in house. Kaveri is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious aero engine programs undertaken by India, now it is ambitious because it envisaged an engine with digital FADEC, high thrust output and lightweight. Kaveri had various challenges right from accoustic instability, shortfall in wet thrust etc etc. But most of those problems have been rectified. Now the major challenge that remains is in the field of metallurgy or newer generation of single crystal blades. India unfortunately has been able to ONLY successfully develop 1st and 2nd gen of SCBs circa 90s, whereas the west has advanced all the way to 4th gen. The $1bn+ offset clause will help GTRE validate and certify their engine for fighter application and Safran are going to help them. Validating and certifying an aero engine is not a small feat by any engineering standards.

2) There are various other programs that have drawn in a lot from Kaveri episode and they are turning out to be fine, for instance quite recently HAL designed a 25kN engine for regional airliner and trainer jets. This engine was almost entirely 3D printed in Bangalore and I happened to have visited the test rig at AERDC facility. Similarly a 1200hp engine for helicopter is also in final stages of development.View attachment 466495
View attachment 466506

3) The miniaturized turbofan engine of 400kgf class has also been test fired on a rig and they are planning to integrate it onto Nirbhay in June. This engine has slightly higher throughput than the Russian turbofan that ADE is using for Nirbhay.
What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

Hi,

Failures lead to success if you have the energy---the resource---and never give up attitude---.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Hi,

Failures lead to success if you have the energy---the resource---and never give up attitude---.

Hi @MastanKhan
You're right, I just wish to elaborate on what you said, Failures are a part of R&D venture. It is impossible to design a new product or technology without facing failures. A lot of Pakistanis on this forum are so painfully oblivious to research and general engineering practices(for instance I've read how hard were you trying to explain trimming to general folks here) that they would argue if somehow your views doesnt fall in line with theirs. No I am not bashing, it is just my personal observation.
India or Pakistan are not exception to this time tested rule. India faced numerous challenges in gas turbines right from acoustic instability, screeching to now metallurgy. And after having spent nearly $700mn on various Gas Turbine related R&D, Kaveri still cant substitute GE404 on Tejas. However it taught various valuable lessons to the GTRE team(I've had interactions with them at def expo-2018). It also spawned off various programs as mentioned in my previous post. One of the programs particularly that of micro turbine for cruise missile applications is going smoothly and will be integrated onto the CM sooner than expected.
The problem with Pakistan is that it is as opaque as a brick when it comes to anything related to defence. It is not like India wherein there exists a CAG(fully autonomous body) that regularly audits and writes scathing reports on the state(delays, shortcomings etc) of many defence programs etc. So, in absence of such a system, Pakistani audience in general tend to believe whatever fancy story they find comfort and solace in. This thought process permeates through even those who are living in west and those who have some exposure to such system of checks and balances.
A lot of people do not know that one would need dedicated research facilities and billions of dollars to design a system. For instance in order to design lets say a CM, they would have to first start with the mission which dictates the kind of endurance and range required. In order to meet that kind of endurance/range, you select the power plant. Then you pass your dummy CM model through numerous wind tunnel tests to find out various stability, control and damping derivatives. Once that is done, you begin the system level engineering design right from electronics, actuators, composites, warheads etc etc. It is at this stage, you need the industrial maturity to source these components from local industry.

 

[denel]

Hi @MastanKhan
You're right, I just wish to elaborate on what you said, Failures are a part of R&D venture. It is impossible to design a new product or technology without facing failures. A lot of Pakistanis on this forum are so painfully oblivious to research and general engineering practices(for instance I've read how hard were you trying to explain trimming to general folks here) that they would argue if somehow your views doesnt fall in line with theirs. No I am not bashing, it is just my personal observation.
India or Pakistan are not exception to this time tested rule. India faced numerous challenges in gas turbines right from acoustic instability, screeching to now metallurgy. And after having spent nearly $700mn on various Gas Turbine related R&D, Kaveri still cant substitute GE404 on Tejas. However it taught various valuable lessons to the GTRE team(I've had interactions with them at def expo-2018). It also spawned off various programs as mentioned in my previous post. One of the programs particularly that of micro turbine for cruise missile applications is going smoothly and will be integrated onto the CM sooner than expected.
The problem with Pakistan is that it is as opaque as a brick when it comes to anything related to defence. It is not like India wherein there exists a CAG(fully autonomous body) that regularly audits and writes scathing reports on the state(delays, shortcomings etc) of many defence programs etc. So, in absence of such a system, Pakistani audience in general tend to believe whatever fancy story they find comfort and solace in. This thought process permeates through even those who are living in west and those who have some exposure to such system of checks and balances.
A lot of people do not know that one would need dedicated research facilities and billions of dollars to design a system. For instance in order to design lets say a CM, they would have to first start with the mission which dictates the kind of endurance and range required. In order to meet that kind of endurance/range, you select the power plant. Then you pass your dummy CM model through numerous wind tunnel tests to find out various stability, control and damping derivatives. Once that is done, you begin the system level engineering design right from electronics, actuators, composites, warheads etc etc. It is at this stage, you need the industrial maturity to source these components from local industry.

300% on the mark!.

 

[messiach]

@MastanKhan @Armchair @Oscar
Castles cant be build in air & that too thin air.
We do'nt have a programme & their is nothing planned.
I was at alumni meeting & representatives from our businessman class & rep from MoD had nothing useful to discuss apart from usual wheeling-dealings. They are commission agents or more useful 'thaikaydars'. I suggested in the meeting to mortgage airforce & navy programmes to uncle chen for 30y. That can only reap handsome benefits.

Turbine development is not anyones priority either civil or military. They are commission agents.
So lock this thread.

@Armchair No i am not back. I am retiring this year & looking forward to post-retirement life & some consultancy work to keep abreast.

 

[SQ8]

@MastanKhan @Armchair @Oscar
Castles cant be build in air & that too thin air.
We do'nt have a programme & their is nothing planned.
I was at alumni meeting & representatives from our businessman class & rep from MoD had nothing useful to discuss apart from usual wheeling-dealings. They are commission agents or more useful 'thaikaydars'. I suggested in the meeting to mortgage airforce & navy programmes to uncle chen for 30y. That can only reap handsome benefits.

Turbine development is not anyones priority either civil or military. They are commission agents.
So lock this thread.

@Armchair No i am not back. I am retiring this year & looking forward to post-retirement life & some consultancy work to keep abreast.

I could say I have been stating the bold repeatedly for ages but then the majority thinks this country has some noble purpose and image.

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Hi wish you had not dragged India into this, but since you have dragged it nontheless, let me clarify couple of things for you-
Engine development is perhaps more complicated than developing entire aircraft. There are of course failures and shortcomings in the development process especially if that is being attempted for the first time. India is no exception. I visited the def expo couple of days back and interacted with guys at GTRE--the lab responsible solely for gas turbines in India. Some of the points I wish to highlight are-

1) India spent close to $700mn on various gas turbine related development plans. Kaveri is not the first nor the last in the efforts to design a gas turbine in house. Kaveri is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious aero engine programs undertaken by India, now it is ambitious because it envisaged an engine with digital FADEC, high thrust output and lightweight. Kaveri had various challenges right from accoustic instability, shortfall in wet thrust etc etc. But most of those problems have been rectified. Now the major challenge that remains is in the field of metallurgy or newer generation of single crystal blades. India unfortunately has been able to ONLY successfully develop 1st and 2nd gen of SCBs circa 90s, whereas the west has advanced all the way to 4th gen. The $1bn+ offset clause will help GTRE validate and certify their engine for fighter application and Safran are going to help them. Validating and certifying an aero engine is not a small feat by any engineering standards.

2) There are various other programs that have drawn in a lot from Kaveri episode and they are turning out to be fine, for instance quite recently HAL designed a 25kN engine for regional airliner and trainer jets. This engine was almost entirely 3D printed in Bangalore and I happened to have visited the test rig at AERDC facility. Similarly a 1200hp engine for helicopter is also in final stages of development.View attachment 466495
View attachment 466506

3) The miniaturized turbofan engine of 400kgf class has also been test fired on a rig and they are planning to integrate it onto Nirbhay in June. This engine has slightly higher throughput than the Russian turbofan that ADE is using for Nirbhay.
What you fail to notice is that, Kaveri might have had itz shortfall but the lessons learnt were applied to various other programs. Also it gave rise to Indian industry that can fabricate various complex titanium alloys, single crystal blades among other things. #2 and #3 are some of the products spawned off the lessons learnt via Kaveri endevour.

Concerning single crystal blades, what is your take on the 3rd gen scb DMS4 made by DRDO's metallurgical lab DMRL?
A paper on it had come out a few years ago I think.

And on topic.
The sheer amount of money and infrastructure needed for something like this is herculean in itself; if their leaders are even desirous of making turbofans shouldn't pakistan first aim at R&Ding smaller turbofans for cruise missile, UAV's and biz jets and the like before attempting to make a 100+kN turbofan powerplant for 4th and 5th gen fighters?

 

[Armchair]

@MastanKhan @Armchair @Oscar
Castles cant be build in air & that too thin air.
We do'nt have a programme & their is nothing planned.
I was at alumni meeting & representatives from our businessman class & rep from MoD had nothing useful to discuss apart from usual wheeling-dealings. They are commission agents or more useful 'thaikaydars'. I suggested in the meeting to mortgage airforce & navy programmes to uncle chen for 30y. That can only reap handsome benefits.

Turbine development is not anyones priority either civil or military. They are commission agents.
So lock this thread.

@Armchair No i am not back. I am retiring this year & looking forward to post-retirement life & some consultancy work to keep abreast.

Thanks for the reply. It is quite sad to see that. I was very happy to have read some of your old posts where you so passionately put forward the idea of building turbines in-country. It was clear from your post you had found out a way to make them via some shortcuts and perhaps collaborative efforts, cheap and within a relatively short period of time. It is sad to see that you've given up on that dream.

 

[denel]

Hi @MastanKhan
You're right, I just wish to elaborate on what you said, Failures are a part of R&D venture. It is impossible to design a new product or technology without facing failures. A lot of Pakistanis on this forum are so painfully oblivious to research and general engineering practices(for instance I've read how hard were you trying to explain trimming to general folks here) that they would argue if somehow your views doesnt fall in line with theirs. No I am not bashing, it is just my personal observation.
India or Pakistan are not exception to this time tested rule. India faced numerous challenges in gas turbines right from acoustic instability, screeching to now metallurgy. And after having spent nearly $700mn on various Gas Turbine related R&D, Kaveri still cant substitute GE404 on Tejas. However it taught various valuable lessons to the GTRE team(I've had interactions with them at def expo-2018). It also spawned off various programs as mentioned in my previous post. One of the programs particularly that of micro turbine for cruise missile applications is going smoothly and will be integrated onto the CM sooner than expected.
The problem with Pakistan is that it is as opaque as a brick when it comes to anything related to defence. It is not like India wherein there exists a CAG(fully autonomous body) that regularly audits and writes scathing reports on the state(delays, shortcomings etc) of many defence programs etc. So, in absence of such a system, Pakistani audience in general tend to believe whatever fancy story they find comfort and solace in. This thought process permeates through even those who are living in west and those who have some exposure to such system of checks and balances.
A lot of people do not know that one would need dedicated research facilities and billions of dollars to design a system. For instance in order to design lets say a CM, they would have to first start with the mission which dictates the kind of endurance and range required. In order to meet that kind of endurance/range, you select the power plant. Then you pass your dummy CM model through numerous wind tunnel tests to find out various stability, control and damping derivatives. Once that is done, you begin the system level engineering design right from electronics, actuators, composites, warheads etc etc. It is at this stage, you need the industrial maturity to source these components from local industry.

I would also like to add a very basic 2cents. How many local textbook authors are present in Pakistan vs India on subject matters from mathematics to engineering etc. I received around 60+ textbooks that are in my library from various authors in India as well as many other international authors that reprint in India but at much lower cost. Until the very seed of learning is instilled and to grow forward is nurtured, i am afraid nothing will happen. There is no out of box thinking. You may have academic institutions that just graduate but never innovate or give next gen students empowerment to think forward.
As a pursuant life long academic I disheartens me to see this happen across the third world when there is great potential to uplift people out of poverty and take entire nations on a new trajectory.
May be I am an idealist who loves education for everyone; Malala was one hope but even she was silenced then what is to be come from a nation that does not educate. Darkness and despair.

 

[amardeep mishra]

. I received around 60+ textbooks that are in my library from various authors in India as well as many other international authors that reprint in India

Hi @denel
There are many indian authors of international repute --a few of them are nothing short of gems-- search T padmanabham and watch his lectures on general theory of relativity. He's so mesmerizing. He's got more than 17000 citations!

 

[denel]

Hi @denel
There are many indian authors of international repute --a few of them are nothing short of gems-- search T padmanabham and watch his lectures on general theory of relativity. He's so mesmerizing. He's got more than 17000 citations!

Very much so. always a pleasure to read through many of my colleagues works.

Unfortunately there is too much testosterone here on this forums with keyboard nuts who are uneducated and brainwashed in either countries nationalistic prides when they have not been to schools or have 1st hand experience on what is to serve humanity first. Come and serve people first, cook and serve food in soup kitchens, deliver help to those in need and help others around you. These are basic rules one needs to abide by and here i feel they just want to chew off a bullet casing and get naked into a wrestling pitch for absolutely ridiculous reason.

Does it matter? How many planes have served meals for the poor? A tank would uplift entire village out of poverty with development if re-allocated.

Just pathetic way of thinking if you ask me; everyone tirades about this and that; ask yourself have you ever thought of becoming a good person who is considerate to others. Serve humanity, learn something of life.