Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[Raja Porus]

think you and I are not on the same page maybe or I didnt get you.

CO 25 Cav was attacking in Chawinda scenario, he wasn't defensive. If you are thinking of pitting Pattons against T-72 or T-90, it's not a good idea. It's better to hand them over to FC based on examples of Turkish usage of M-60 Pattons in their war against insurgents, but eventually Turks had to bring in Leo2A4s too.

I think we both are discussing two different levels of command, you are talking about tactical while I'm, operational.

CO 25 Cav was attacking in Chawinda scenario, he wasn't defensive. If you are thinking of pitting Pattons against T-72 or T-90, it's not a good idea. It's better to hand them over to FC based on examples of Turkish usage of M-60 Pattons in their war against insurgents, but eventually Turks had to bring in Leo2A4s too.

Col Nisar's attack was a tactical level attack. What was the operational objective of 6AD?

Thirdly, India hadnt exercised war games of Division and Corps level in desert to throw Centurions in the desert under its armored division

Neither India nor Pak was capable of doing such things back then. Moreover ig wouldn't have gone unnoticed. We would've come up with a response. Jacobabad airbase also comes to mind.
Moreover, desert would've been where our Pattons would've finally been able to use their superiority in range, laser range finder and FCS. Alot different to the sugarcane fields of Khem Kharan.

Fourthly, even if you put defensive lines of M48s and T-59s, Indian armored forces will be more mobile than them and just like 1971, they will by-pass strong points and attack from rear or flanks to decimate these forces

Where did the M48s come in from? In fact I started this discussion with respect to AZs and upgunned T69s with NV. AZs in reserve would be excellent. Better than T72s.
Also who uses reserve Tanks for frontline? I'm talking about rear activities and city defence. A commander who is able to free up regular troops would become a bit more aggressive. He can even counter attack because now he has more regular troops.
For example in 65 when Rajinder Singh (GOC 1st armd div) asked for 9 Deccan horse and 3 Cav, which were lying idle at Lahore front, to be sent to Chawinda; he was refused because they were kept back for safety of Amritsar. What would've happened had they been moved.. thank God we don't know.

Yea PA was supposed to get korkuts as well since they trialed em, any update on that.

I don't think SPAAGs are of much use nowadays.

 

[farooqbhai007]

I think we both are discussing two different levels of command, you are talking about tactical while I'm, operational.


Col Nisar's attack was a tactical level attack. What was the operational objective of 6AD?


Neither India nor Pak was capable of doing such things back then. Moreover ig wouldn't have gone unnoticed. We would've come up with a response. Jacobabad airbase also comes to mind.
Moreover, desert would've been where our Pattons would've finally been able to use their superiority in range, laser range finder and FCS. Alot different to the sugarcane fields of Khem Kharan.

Where did the M48s come in from? In fact I started this discussion with respect to AZs and upgunned T69s with NV. AZs in reserve would be excellent. Better than T72s.
Also who uses reserve Tanks for frontline? I'm talking about rear activities and city defence. A commander who is able to free up regular troops would become a bit more aggressive. He can even counter attack because now he has more regular troops.
For example in 65 when Rajinder Singh (GOC 1st armd div) asked for 9 Deccan horse and 3 Cav, which were lying idle at Lahore front, to be sent to Chawinda; he was refused because they were kept back for safety of Amritsar.

I don't think SPAAGs are of much use nowadays.

spaag are very effective , afaik even the ukranians released a press release in which they said that their kharkhiv offensive was succesfull partially due to a handfull weapons which changed their tide of war which was the artillery systems and the gepard.

 

[Reichmarshal]

There are already man portable anti drone devices. A well organized force would set up proper air defence for armor while advancing.

How about a saturation attack with multiple suicide drones or with cluster munitions like the cbu 105 or a salvo of gps guided rockets from multiple launchers.
Things are looking frighteningly bad for tank

 

[Signalian]

I think we both are discussing two different levels of command, you are talking about tactical while I'm, operational.


Col Nisar's attack was a tactical level attack. What was the operational objective of 6AD?


Neither India nor Pak was capable of doing such things back then. Moreover ig wouldn't have gone unnoticed. We would've come up with a response. Jacobabad airbase also comes to mind.
Moreover, desert would've been where our Pattons would've finally been able to use their superiority in range, laser range finder and FCS. Alot different to the sugarcane fields of Khem Kharan.

Where did the M48s come in from? In fact I started this discussion with respect to AZs and upgunned T69s with NV. AZs in reserve would be excellent. Better than T72s.
Also who uses reserve Tanks for frontline? I'm talking about rear activities and city defence. A commander who is able to free up regular troops would become a bit more aggressive. He can even counter attack because now he has more regular troops.
For example in 65 when Rajinder Singh (GOC 1st armd div) asked for 9 Deccan horse and 3 Cav, which were lying idle at Lahore front, to be sent to Chawinda; he was refused because they were kept back for safety of Amritsar. What would've happened had they been moved.. thank God we don't know.

I don't think SPAAGs are of much use nowadays.

99% of armored warfare is "getting there" which means driving to reach a destination. The T-59s and T69s are inadequate for that purpose in modern warfare where as T-80UD, AK and VT-4 are perfect, while T-85 is good. I mentioned M-48s along with T-59s as they are available options. The attrition rate of T-59s will be higher against modern MBTs of IA which means you are not just losing MBTs but experienced crews also.

I also mentioned operational use of older MBTs in previous posts, not just at tactical level. Lets suppose that there is a reserve brigade of T-59s 5under 5-Corps and another under 31-Corps. Indian Army makes a breakthrough and there is a large armored force of T-90s and BMPs. What will you pitch against this force from Pakistan's arsenal ?

1. T-59 armored brigade of 90 MBTs and 50 APCs (12-15 are ATGM equipped) ?
or
2. UCAVs and Gunships
or
3. LATs/HATs (4x4 and APC mounted ATGM)
or
4. Dismounted/dug in infantry with ATGM/LAW/Mines backed with towed artillery
or
5. PAF's CAS aircrafts.

Or a combination of the above. What would be a sensible option.

How about a saturation attack with multiple suicide drones or with cluster munitions like the cause 105 or a salvo of gps guided rockets from multiple launchers.
Things are looking frighteningly bad for tank

Pakistan Army - AIR DEFENCE CORPS - Formation, Structure, Weapons

I have been asked repeatedly to create a thread on Army AIR DEFENCE and every time I had to paste a post that i wrote earlier in a thread so now i am creating a new topic. Army AD formations hold confidential information in terms of TOE, deployment, weaponry and Radar systems. I will give a...

defence.pk

PA AD formations are mix of AAA and Tubed weapons to tackle air threats and then there are tactics/strategies to avoid falling into a trap.

spaag are very effective , afaik even the ukranians released a press release in which they said that their kharkhiv offensive was succesfull partially due to a handfull weapons which changed their tide of war which was the artillery systems and the gepard.

SPAAGs with radar like Giraffe and also Tubed weapons like SAMs for guidance with/without radar.

 

[CLUMSY]

How about a saturation attack with multiple suicide drones or with cluster munitions like the cause 105 or a salvo of gps guided rockets from multiple launchers.
Things are looking frighteningly bad for tank

Loitering munitions can be shot down with proper coverage, counter artillery also exists. Tanks wont be obsolete, they will just change. My assumption is that internationally tanks will start being lighter with better electronic countermeasures and hardkill systems. Proper CRAM would be very good against suicide drones.

 

[Signalian]

Loitering munitions can be shot down with proper coverage, counter artillery also exists. Tanks wont be obsolete, they will just change. My assumption is that internationally tanks will start being lighter with better electronic countermeasures and hardkill systems. Proper CRAM would be very good against suicide drones.

Dismal deployment of MBTs in various conflicts - Syria, Azerbaijan, Ukraine- by various countries have led to MBTs getting their turrets shot in to the sky.

 

[Reichmarshal]

As drones become readily available across the board...we will see more n more usage of small suicide drones in saturation attacks.....eg let's say a brigade level armor attack is targeted by 100 suicide drones in a saturation attack or that mater a large armor formation is attacked by multiple ucavs or ac with cbu 105, the formation stands no chance.
All this with tech thsts been available for some time now

 

[Signalian]

the formation stands no chance.

If such was the case then many countries would disband their armored formations.
Post#1318

 

[CLUMSY]

99% of armored warfare is "getting there" which means driving to reach a destination. The T-59s and T69s are inadequate for that purpose in modern warfare where as T-80UD, AK and VT-4 are perfect, while T-85 is good. I mentioned M-48s along with T-59s as they are available options. The attrition rate of T-59s will be higher against modern MBTs of IA which means you are not just losing MBTs but experienced crews also.

I also mentioned operational use of older MBTs in previous posts, not just at tactical level. Lets suppose that there is a reserve brigade of T-59s 5under 5-Corps and another under 31-Corps. Indian Army makes a breakthrough and there is a large armored force of T-90s and BMPs. What will you pitch against this force from Pakistan's arsenal ?

1. T-59 armored brigade of 90 MBTs and 50 APCs (12-15 are ATGM equipped) ?
or
2. UCAVs and Gunships
or
3. LATs/HATs (4x4 and APC mounted ATGM)
or
4. Dismounted/dug in infantry with ATGM/LAW/Mines backed with towed artillery
or
5. PAF's CAS aircrafts.

Or a combination of the above. What would be a sensible option.

Pakistan Army - AIR DEFENCE CORPS - Formation, Structure, Weapons

I have been asked repeatedly to create a thread on Army AIR DEFENCE and every time I had to paste a post that i wrote earlier in a thread so now i am creating a new topic. Army AD formations hold confidential information in terms of TOE, deployment, weaponry and Radar systems. I will give a...

defence.pk

PA AD formations are mix of AAA and Tubed weapons to tackle air threats and then there are tactics/strategies to avoid falling into a trap.


SPAAGs with radar like Giraffe and also Tubed weapons like SAMs

99% of armored warfare is "getting there" which means driving to reach a destination. The T-59s and T69s are inadequate for that purpose in modern warfare where as T-80UD, AK and VT-4 are perfect, while T-85 is good. I mentioned M-48s along with T-59s as they are available options. The attrition rate of T-59s will be higher against modern MBTs of IA which means you are not just losing MBTs but experienced crews also.

I also mentioned operational use of older MBTs in previous posts, not just at tactical level. Lets suppose that there is a reserve brigade of T-59s 5under 5-Corps and another under 31-Corps. Indian Army makes a breakthrough and there is a large armored force of T-90s and BMPs. What will you pitch against this force from Pakistan's arsenal ?

1. T-59 armored brigade of 90 MBTs and 50 APCs (12-15 are ATGM equipped) ?
or
2. UCAVs and Gunships
or
3. LATs/HATs (4x4 and APC mounted ATGM)
or
4. Dismounted/dug in infantry with ATGM/LAW/Mines backed with towed artillery
or
5. PAF's CAS aircrafts.

Or a combination of the above. What would be a sensible option.

Pakistan Army - AIR DEFENCE CORPS - Formation, Structure, Weapons

I have been asked repeatedly to create a thread on Army AIR DEFENCE and every time I had to paste a post that i wrote earlier in a thread so now i am creating a new topic. Army AD formations hold confidential information in terms of TOE, deployment, weaponry and Radar systems. I will give a...

defence.pk

PA AD formations are mix of AAA and Tubed weapons to tackle air threats and then there are tactics/strategies to avoid falling into a trap.


SPAAGs with radar like Giraffe and also Tubed weapons like SAMs for guidance with/without radar.

If its a shock attack with no prior warning UCAVs and aircraft with anti tank infantry equipped with ATGMs and RPGs on the flanks.

 

[Signalian]

If its a shock attack with no prior warning UCAVs and aircraft with anti tank infantry equipped with ATGMs and RPGs on the flanks.

1. Why would the radars of AD regiments be switched off as they are accompanying the armored forces?
2. Why wouldn't intel know of imminent attack knowing the UCAVs strengths and bases in the area ?
3. Why would recon elements not warn the main body of the armored force about the direction of attack ?
4. Why wouldn't Signals Battalions EW equipment accompany armored forces for EW, signal interception, jamming and other electronic capabilities ?
5. Why wouldn't PAF's AWACs pick up the movement if its in the zone ?
6. Why would armored regiments leave out their AD contingent behind even if they are 2-4 x SAM launchers with 2-4 x AAA cannons, apart from Corps and Div Level AD regiments providing cover ?

 

[CLUMSY]

1. Why would the radars of AD regiments be switched off as they are accompanying the armored forces?
2. Why wouldn't intel know of imminent attack knowing the UCAVs strengths and bases in the area ?
3. Why would recon elements not warn the main body of the armored force about the direction of attack ?
4. Why wouldn't Signals Battalions EW equipment accompany armored forces for EW, signal interception, jamming and other electronic capabilities ?
5. Why wouldn't PAF's AWACs pick up the movement if its in the zone ?
6. Why would armored regiments leave out their AD contingent behind even if they are 2-4 x SAM launchers with 2-4 x AAA cannons, apart from Corps and Div Level AD regiments providing cover ?

Oh i didnt know you were also counting in other supporting elements. I guess in this scenario i would mostly rely on guided rocket artillery and cluster munitions to bog down advancing elements and possibly target AD infrastructure. What level of SAMs are we talking about here?

 

[Raja Porus]

also mentioned operational use of older MBTs in previous posts, not just at tactical level. Lets suppose that there is a reserve brigade of T-59s 5under 5-Corps and another under 31-Corps. Indian Army makes a breakthrough and there is a large armored force of T-90s and BMPs. What will you pitch against this force from Pakistan's arsenal ?

1. T-59 armored brigade of 90 MBTs and 50 APCs (12-15 are ATGM equipped) ?
or
2. UCAVs and Gunships
or
3. LATs/HATs (4x4 and APC mounted ATGM)
or
4. Dismounted/dug in infantry with ATGM/LAW/Mines backed with towed artillery
or
5. PAF's CAS aircrafts.

Or a combination of the above. What would be a sensible option.

What type of commander will fight such a battle!
All levels of command prepare for such contingencies. Why aren't there any local reserves with the GOCs? Or why aren't there any theatre reserves! Who defends without a regular reserve. Relying on third line reservists?

Still if there's no regular reserve and the reservist brigade is defending bahwalnagar city, then;
-Use PAF and UCAVs for max attrition of breakout force.
-2×LAT coys deployed as forward defence, will do a fighting retreat.
-Will use terrain and deploy my main force where enemy has minimum options of flanking and axes of advance, i.e to narrow down his advance.
-Main defence line would include, 1×Armd regt and 2×Inf coys, 1× LAT coy, arty and mines.
- 1×armd regt+ 2× Inf coys as reserve.
- 1-2× LAT pltns on either flank of the main defence.

 

[Signalian]

Relying on third line reservists?

CORO get administrative tasks in HQs.

 

[Signalian]

Oh i didnt know you were also counting in other supporting elements. I guess in this scenario i would mostly rely on guided rocket artillery and cluster munitions to bog down advancing elements and possibly target AD infrastructure. What level of SAMs are we talking about here?

Why would a formation go to war without supporting elements ? Coz thats what you saw in Syrian, Ukrainian conflict etc ?

 

[CLUMSY]

Why would a formation go to war without supporting elements ? Coz thats what you saw in Syrian, Ukrainian conflict etc ?

I assumed it was a what if scenario