Kulbhushan Case. Who will win Pak India Battle in International Court of Justice

[Umair Nawaz]

humpty dumpty sat on a wall

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Full response by Pakistan!!

 

[Chakar The Great]

I am stunned by professionalism by Pakistani delegate. Fail to understand why Pakistan cant become a strong country in the world.

 

[Path-Finder]

The haram tooi and traitor has once again done his bidding for india.

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The haram tooi and traitor has once again done his bidding for india.

https://www.facebook.com/

I really don’t see the point behind bringing up Nawaz Sharif’s statement in court in the context of Yadav. What bearing does that have on the legalities of the issue as articulated by @saiyan0321?

I am stunned by professionalism by Pakistani delegate. Fail to understand why Pakistan cant become a strong country in the world.

Because to become a strong nation Pakistan needs such professionalism across the board with consistency. Isolated incidents of professionalism don’t help build a nation, they’re just that, occasional flashes of brilliance, like some of our cricketers.

It’s why I would like to see Imran Khan and the PTI have atleast 2 full terms in office, to really get a chance to change things.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

what jurisdiction ICJ has really in the matter? Can they overturn the conviction? Can they have the terrorist released? At best they can reprimand Pak for not giving consular access. Am I right or not? All indications point to us winning the case tho.

 

[ziaulislam]

I am stunned by professionalism by Pakistani delegate. Fail to understand why Pakistan cant become a strong country in the world.

Because such gems are forced out of decision makibg by just two peoples zardari and sharif
For last 40 years these are two people that ruled Pakistan
Take out the 9 years of musharraf(when GDP Doubled, Growth was 8+ and debt halfed despite Pakistan defualting in 1998!) During those 9 years you saw great technocrats that did decent amount of reforms till things went political in mid 2000s

We also saw the era of great depression when bhutto nationalized everything

Take out these three things
1. Sharif( and educated conservative class)
2. Zardari(educated sindhi class)
3. Bhutto nationalization (education pseduo liberals)

And Pakistan developement mirror that of korea and china

Anyway india has a strong chance of winnig given the biased nature of this court

 

[saiyan0321]

I really don’t see the point behind bringing up Nawaz Sharif’s statement in court in the context of Yadav. What bearing does that have on the legalities of the issue as articulated by @saiyan0321?

None..

Barring any precedent setting orders ( that will piss off a lot of nations) the ICJ at best can pass an order that may highlight consular access or state that the procedure that tried kulbushan was imperfect or not in accordance to fair hearing and may advise Pakistan to provide rehearing.

What ICC isnt is a criminal court. What does this mean? It means that ICC has no criminal trial structure. Don't confuse this with war trials. They are based on human right laws of the security council. A criminal case requires a criminal section and a criminal procedure both absent in this court...

Secondly to order a release the ICJ will have to do the following...

That every individual is an international subjects but an international subject has rights and duties many of which given only to states. An international personality.. Kulbushan was shown as neither a diplomat in Pakistan or Iran nor any international body having personage. To say he will have international body subjecting him to international law then you and I am no different and if you and I am no different then can we fight our cases in Geneva.

It will have to declare that the international court of justice is the supreme court of all courts of all countries and thus hold the power of judicial review with which they can review any decision made by the supreme court...

The gravity of this is so severe bcz ICJ will be highlighting its authority over all the courts of the world and highlighting that it can review each of their decisions. That will piss off every nation in the world including India. After highlighting this authority it will then direct a sovereign country to follow its order... This would mean that every decision of every court in the world can be challenged. Good news for many on the death row. They can file appeals.


Lastly the ICJ will have to highlight that the order was not judicious yet will also have to explain what criminal law now exists in international law... .



Long story short if ICJ does the above then ICJ just became the sovereign authority over all legal cases of the world...


Here are my two cents on the order. At worst it will be that India should be granted a consular access and the case should be reheard with India given an opportunity to provide evidence... Unless you know the ICJ channels saqin nisar and starts judicial authority over the entire world... ..

The media of both sides will claim victory and that is how it will be.

Pakistani media will run the news of kulbushan not released repeatedly as breaking news...

Indian media will say victory for media, Pakistan humiliated, ICJ vindicates Pakistan is a terror state with gross human rights violation and ordered Pakistan to grant consular access. It declared Pakistan a sham country with a sham democracy home to kangaroo courts... They ordered Pakistan to retrial him... if you are just joining us Pakistan has been humiliated and Modi has delivered on another promise. Kulbushan is coming home soon...


100% thats how its going to be although the world will be pretty fun with ICJ expanding its authority over all nations...

@M. Sarmad @Joe Shearer am I wrong? Barring any precedent setting, how do you see the orders coming. I am not saying spy or not. I am asking in international law sense.

 

[Jackdaws]

None..

Barring any precedent setting orders ( that will piss off a lot of nations) the ICJ at best can pass an order that may highlight consular access or state that the procedure that tried kulbushan was imperfect or not in accordance to fair hearing and may advise Pakistan to provide rehearing.

What ICC isnt is a criminal court. What does this mean? It means that ICC has no criminal trial structure. Don't confuse this with war trials. They are based on human right laws of the security council. A criminal case requires a criminal section and a criminal procedure both absent in this court...

Secondly to order a release the ICJ will have to do the following...

That every individual is an international subjects but an international subject has rights and duties many of which given only to states. An international personality.. Kulbushan was shown as neither a diplomat in Pakistan or Iran nor any international body having personage. To say he will have international body subjecting him to international law then you and I am no different and if you and I am no different then can we fight our cases in Geneva.

It will have to declare that the international court of justice is the supreme court of all courts of all countries and thus hold the power of judicial review with which they can review any decision made by the supreme court...

The gravity of this is so severe bcz ICJ will be highlighting its authority over all the courts of the world and highlighting that it can review each of their decisions. That will piss off every nation in the world including India. After highlighting this authority it will then direct a sovereign country to follow its order... This would mean that every decision of every court in the world can be challenged. Good news for many on the death row. They can file appeals.


Lastly the ICJ will have to highlight that the order was not judicious yet will also have to explain what criminal law now exists in international law... .



Long story short if ICJ does the above then ICJ just became the sovereign authority over all legal cases of the world...


Here are my two cents on the order. At worst it will be that India should be granted a consular access and the case should be reheard with India given an opportunity to provide evidence... Unless you know the ICJ channels saqin nisar and starts judicial authority over the entire world... ..

The media of both sides will claim victory and that is how it will be.

Pakistani media will run the news of kulbushan not released repeatedly as breaking news...

Indian media will say victory for media, Pakistan humiliated, ICJ vindicates Pakistan is a terror state with gross human rights violation and ordered Pakistan to grant consular access. It declared Pakistan a sham country with a sham democracy home to kangaroo courts... They ordered Pakistan to retrial him... if you are just joining us Pakistan has been humiliated and Modi has delivered on another promise. Kulbushan is coming home soon...


100% thats how its going to be although the world will be pretty fun with ICJ expanding its authority over all nations...

@M. Sarmad @Joe Shearer am I wrong? Barring any precedent setting, how do you see the orders coming. I am not saying spy or not. I am asking in international law sense.

ICJ at most can declare that his rights were violated and that he should be given consular access and a civil trial with an actual defence - consular access would mean India can appoint his lawyer or even provide his lawyer. I am not arguing whether he was a spy or not. I am just telling you from a legal perspective. Pakistan might not want a public trial and India does. Why? Irrespective of his being spy - it might show he was lured into Balochistan which would constitute entrapment. The charges leveled on him could be circumstantial. Also even if he was genuinely caught and genuinely involved, it might expose Pak's own methods and officers involved in his capture which they would not like. Perhaps even their informers would.

 

[untitled]

Yadav was caught in Pakistan with a false passport, without his uniform and he himself has admitted to planning covert terrorist activities inside Pakistan. All international treaties (Geneva/Hague) don't give any quarter to spies/saboteurs and even mercenaries. Why on earth did Pakistan decide to fight the case in the ICJ? They could have outright said that he is a spy. International law doesn't apply here.
@saiyan0321

 

[saiyan0321]

ICJ at most can declare that his rights were violated and that he should be given consular access and a civil trial with an actual defence - consular access would mean India can appoint his lawyer or even provide his lawyer. I am not arguing whether he was a spy or not. I am just telling you from a legal perspective. Pakistan might not want a public trial and India does. Why? Irrespective of his being spy - it might show he was lured into Balochistan which would constitute entrapment. The charges leveled on him could be circumstantial. Also even if he was genuinely caught and genuinely involved, it might expose Pak's own methods and officers involved in his capture which they would not like. Perhaps even their informers would.

Spy pay tu baat he nahi hai. Its all legal that I want.

So you and I agree that the most adverse order barring precedent setting is ICJ stating that grant consular access and retrial the case. It can't order a sovereign court of a sovereign power that since its order was not judicious, that order is hereby set aside. It can't set aside an order...


Secondly what ICJ doesnt have is the legal points in contempt of court which means that let's say that a country doesn't retrial or delays or walks around it, it can't implement its order due to absence of a proper force...
Completely sense. Not talking reputations or spies.. Talking about the limits of the international courts...

Lastly. Civil nahi. Criminal court.. Civil case nahi criminal hoga. After my paper end, I will check out what our foreign spy laws state.

This person was caught in Pakistan with a false passport, without his uniform and admitted to planning covert terrorist activities inside Pakistan. All international treaties (Geneva/Hague) don't give any quarter to spies/sabateurs. Why on earth did Pakistan decide to fight the case to the ICJ? They could have outright said that he is a spy. International law doesn't apply here.
@saiyan0321

Indian defence is being based on two things.. Proper consular access was not given and the trial was imperfect since due to the absence of consular access he was not able to defend his case and in the trial was not able to present the facts nor was able to gain the help of his host country to provide the proper evidence that would have vindicated the stand that he is not a spy... This is a very short version..

Well that is exactly what we are doing. Trying to prove he is a spy. We could have ignored but that would have harmed our international standing and would have been another incident where the world would have called us a rogue state....

Look its not like we are going to execute the guy. You dont execute spies... Worst case we get an adverse order give a consular visit after delaying a year and act super slow in the process of retrial.

Remember it will still be our court and our law. I will try to brush up on our foreign spy laws...

 

[untitled]

We could have ignored but that would have harmed our international standing and would have been another incident where the world would have called us a rogue state....

How much would it have harmed our image. Even more than North Korea's?

Even North Korea stood it's ground when they accused American citizens of illegally entering their soil. Bill Clinton (after retiring) had to personally fly to Pyongyang to secure their release. No ICJ involved what so ever

 

[saiyan0321]

How much would it have harmed our image. Even more than North Korea's?

Even North Korea stood it's ground when they accused American citizens of illegally entering their soil. Bill Clinton (after retiring) had to personally fly to Pyongyang to secure their release. No ICJ involved what so ever

We are not north Korea.. our international standing no matter how low is a million times better than north Korea and Iran.. It's stuff like that which solidified their perception that they are a rogue nation...

The international world works with cooperation.. If you don't cooperate nobody can do anything but it will isolate you ( not isolation that india talks about.. Have ruined the word for me) but isolation in the solidification of the perception that you don't cooperate. You are not part of the system. You are a rogue.....

Anyhow its useless to talk about what if...

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Honestly speaking. India will win it. But overall things would be same. They would just get counselor access. We will hang him anyway.
ICJ is not criminal court of appeal so Pakistan's court decision won't be changed. Even if they are changed Pakistan won't accept as it will be a decision out of ICJ juristrictions.

 

[Joe Shearer]

None..

Barring any precedent setting orders ( that will piss off a lot of nations) the ICJ at best can pass an order that may highlight consular access or state that the procedure that tried kulbushan was imperfect or not in accordance to fair hearing and may advise Pakistan to provide rehearing.

What ICC isnt is a criminal court. What does this mean? It means that ICC has no criminal trial structure. Don't confuse this with war trials. They are based on human right laws of the security council. A criminal case requires a criminal section and a criminal procedure both absent in this court...

Secondly to order a release the ICJ will have to do the following...

That every individual is an international subjects but an international subject has rights and duties many of which given only to states. An international personality.. Kulbushan was shown as neither a diplomat in Pakistan or Iran nor any international body having personage. To say he will have international body subjecting him to international law then you and I am no different and if you and I am no different then can we fight our cases in Geneva.

It will have to declare that the international court of justice is the supreme court of all courts of all countries and thus hold the power of judicial review with which they can review any decision made by the supreme court...

The gravity of this is so severe bcz ICJ will be highlighting its authority over all the courts of the world and highlighting that it can review each of their decisions. That will piss off every nation in the world including India. After highlighting this authority it will then direct a sovereign country to follow its order... This would mean that every decision of every court in the world can be challenged. Good news for many on the death row. They can file appeals.


Lastly the ICJ will have to highlight that the order was not judicious yet will also have to explain what criminal law now exists in international law... .



Long story short if ICJ does the above then ICJ just became the sovereign authority over all legal cases of the world...


Here are my two cents on the order. At worst it will be that India should be granted a consular access and the case should be reheard with India given an opportunity to provide evidence... Unless you know the ICJ channels saqin nisar and starts judicial authority over the entire world... ..

The media of both sides will claim victory and that is how it will be.

Pakistani media will run the news of kulbushan not released repeatedly as breaking news...

Indian media will say victory for media, Pakistan humiliated, ICJ vindicates Pakistan is a terror state with gross human rights violation and ordered Pakistan to grant consular access. It declared Pakistan a sham country with a sham democracy home to kangaroo courts... They ordered Pakistan to retrial him... if you are just joining us Pakistan has been humiliated and Modi has delivered on another promise. Kulbushan is coming home soon...


100% thats how its going to be although the world will be pretty fun with ICJ expanding its authority over all nations...

@M. Sarmad @Joe Shearer am I wrong? Barring any precedent setting, how do you see the orders coming. I am not saying spy or not. I am asking in international law sense.

I believe that you are right, but I am not sure how the decision will be worded: as an order agreeing to or denying the application, obviously, but with or without modifications, I suppose.

The ICJ has jurisdiction where it is recognised to have jurisdiction; by that I mean not that it can be put on and taken off like a sweater, but that covenanting states may have their individual exceptions and may declare them at the time of accepting the Court jurisdiction or at any time thereafter. Its work is entirely in international law; criminal law doesn't come into it, except insofar as the rights of individuals of a state imprisoned or prosecuted by another state are concerned. This might extend to seeking a neutral venue for trial, the right to appoint a lawyer, and the most fundamental right, the right to consular access.

Since I was tagged, I watched both videos - with disappointment.