KLJ 7 A and ELM 2052 Radar

[hacker J]

Hey,

Request you to not to make it a thunder vs Tejas thread but wanted to discuss these upcoming technologies on the asian two arch rival sub continents.

KLJ 7 A
It has 2 Active electronically scanned array versions: one on a mechanically steered mount to increase field of view, another one with one frontal antenna and 2 lateral antenna arrays.

• Multi-mode Design inspired from Phazotron
• Analogous to Raytheon AN/APG-63(V2) AESA rada
• Type : X-band
• Weighs 145kg
• key defensibility gains against electronic warfare (EW) jamming
• Active Electronically Scan Array (AESA) radar

Based on GAN TRs its said to have a tracking range of approx 200kms for 5m2 target with a power output of 8-10kVA

https://thediplomat.com/tag/klj-7a-active-electronically-scanned-array-radar-system/

ELM 2052 Radar
ELTA's ELM-2052 is an advanced Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air-to-air superiority and strike missions, based on fully solid-state Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar to achieve long detection ranges, high mission reliability and multi-target tracking capabilities.

The radar provides simultaneous modes of operation supporting multi-mission capabilities for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operation modes, and weapon deployment

Technical Details
Antenna size : adapted to aircraft nose limitations(300/500/1500 TRs)

Weight : 80-180 kg, depending on antenna size

Power : 3-10 kVA, depending on antenna size

Sigma, two axis monopulse and guard channels
Performance
Ait-to-Air
• TWS/Multi-target detection and tracking
• Multi-target ACM
• High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground
• High resolution mapping (SAR Mode)
• AGR - Air-to-Ground Ranging
• RBM - Real Beam Map
• DBS - Doppler Beam Sharpening
• GMTI on RBM, SAR
• GMTT on RBM, SAR
•Beacon
•Weather

Air-to-Sea
•Long-range target detection and tracking
•Sea search and multi-target tracking
•RS and ISAR classification modes

https://www.iai.co.il/p/elm-2052

As per some estimates its range can be shot upto 290 kms for 5m2 by increasing TRs.

Which one deploys better technologies/better jamming resistant features and is better for air superiority and air to ground modes. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[UKBengali]

Dude, no one knows for sure.

Jews have benefit of massive tech transfer from USA but China has much greater experience in AESA radars and more money to develop stuff.

I suspect that they are both very similar in performance and tactics and missiles will be the deciding factor.

 

[hacker J]

Dude, no one knows for sure.

Jews have benefit of massive tech transfer from USA but China has much greater experience in AESA radars and more money to develop stuff.

I suspect that they are both very similar in performance and tactics and missiles will be the deciding factor.

No know knows agreed. China has more experience in AESA tech I disagree, more money- maybe.
as far as i know we have some guess what 2052 will be like, but still wanted to confirm on klj7A, mostly sue to in availability. Also m not sure if it is batle ready as indians developed/displayed uttam but its far from being battle ready.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Also m not sure if it is batle ready

Chinese has AESA installed in their J10Cs and J20s. Also maybe have J16s, J15s and J11s installed with AESA too

 

[The Accountant]

How can range be different when maximum power output is same. Power output and range are directly related and same technology is being used.

Hey,

Request you to not to make it a thunder vs Tejas thread but wanted to discuss these upcoming technologies on the asian two arch rival sub continents.

KLJ 7 A
It has 2 Active electronically scanned array versions: one on a mechanically steered mount to increase field of view, another one with one frontal antenna and 2 lateral antenna arrays.

• Multi-mode Design inspired from Phazotron
• Analogous to Raytheon AN/APG-63(V2) AESA rada
• Type : X-band
• Weighs 145kg
• key defensibility gains against electronic warfare (EW) jamming
• Active Electronically Scan Array (AESA) radar

Based on GAN TRs its said to have a tracking range of approx 200kms for 5m2 target with a power output of 8-10kVA

https://thediplomat.com/tag/klj-7a-active-electronically-scanned-array-radar-system/

ELM 2052 Radar
ELTA's ELM-2052 is an advanced Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air-to-air superiority and strike missions, based on fully solid-state Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar to achieve long detection ranges, high mission reliability and multi-target tracking capabilities.

The radar provides simultaneous modes of operation supporting multi-mission capabilities for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operation modes, and weapon deployment

Technical Details
Antenna size : adapted to aircraft nose limitations(300/500/1500 TRs)

Weight : 80-180 kg, depending on antenna size

Power : 3-10 kVA, depending on antenna size

Sigma, two axis monopulse and guard channels
Performance
Ait-to-Air
• TWS/Multi-target detection and tracking
• Multi-target ACM
• High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground
• High resolution mapping (SAR Mode)
• AGR - Air-to-Ground Ranging
• RBM - Real Beam Map
• DBS - Doppler Beam Sharpening
• GMTI on RBM, SAR
• GMTT on RBM, SAR
•Beacon
•Weather

Air-to-Sea
•Long-range target detection and tracking
•Sea search and multi-target tracking
•RS and ISAR classification modes

https://www.iai.co.il/p/elm-2052

As per some estimates its range can be shot upto 290 kms for 5m2 by increasing TRs.

Which one deploys better technologies/better jamming resistant features and is better for air superiority and air to ground modes. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[hacker J]

How can range be different when maximum power output is same. Power output and range are directly related and same technology is being used.

Yes, for 2052 the power out varies depending on no of modules used. For KLJ7A i read somewhere that its 8kVA but since its taken form 2052 directly it should have the same power that why i said 8-10 kVA. power out of KLJ7A is not from any official source, and you can give me a better source for it if possible.

Chinese has AESA installed in their J10Cs and J20s. Also maybe have J16s, J15s and J11s installed with AESA too

j10cs and j20 have a bigger radar, and i am talking about this specific radar as this is first aesa radar in its category.

 

[LKJ86]

Chinese has AESA installed in their J10Cs and J20s. Also maybe have J16s, J15s and J11s installed with AESA too

There are three different AESA radars in service for J-10C, J-16 and J-20 respectively already.

J-15D would have a new AESA radar for sure.

There also would be new AESA radars for the MLU of J-10A and J-11B.

KLJ-7A and LKF601E were competing for JF-17 BLK III.

 

[hacker J]

How can range be different when maximum power output is same. Power output and range are directly related and same technology is being used.

also range varies with the quality of TR modules and technology used in there construction. (thats why aesa has better range at same power than pesa also not all pesa radar at same power have exact same range)

 

[Shabi1]

Hey,

Request you to not to make it a thunder vs Tejas thread but wanted to discuss these upcoming technologies on the asian two arch rival sub continents.

KLJ 7 A
It has 2 Active electronically scanned array versions: one on a mechanically steered mount to increase field of view, another one with one frontal antenna and 2 lateral antenna arrays.

• Multi-mode Design inspired from Phazotron
• Analogous to Raytheon AN/APG-63(V2) AESA rada
• Type : X-band
• Weighs 145kg
• key defensibility gains against electronic warfare (EW) jamming
• Active Electronically Scan Array (AESA) radar

Based on GAN TRs its said to have a tracking range of approx 200kms for 5m2 target with a power output of 8-10kVA

https://thediplomat.com/tag/klj-7a-active-electronically-scanned-array-radar-system/

ELM 2052 Radar
ELTA's ELM-2052 is an advanced Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air-to-air superiority and strike missions, based on fully solid-state Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar to achieve long detection ranges, high mission reliability and multi-target tracking capabilities.

The radar provides simultaneous modes of operation supporting multi-mission capabilities for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operation modes, and weapon deployment

Technical Details
Antenna size : adapted to aircraft nose limitations(300/500/1500 TRs)

Weight : 80-180 kg, depending on antenna size

Power : 3-10 kVA, depending on antenna size

Sigma, two axis monopulse and guard channels
Performance
Ait-to-Air
• TWS/Multi-target detection and tracking
• Multi-target ACM
• High resolution raid assessment

Air-to-Ground
• High resolution mapping (SAR Mode)
• AGR - Air-to-Ground Ranging
• RBM - Real Beam Map
• DBS - Doppler Beam Sharpening
• GMTI on RBM, SAR
• GMTT on RBM, SAR
•Beacon
•Weather

Air-to-Sea
•Long-range target detection and tracking
•Sea search and multi-target tracking
•RS and ISAR classification modes

https://www.iai.co.il/p/elm-2052

As per some estimates its range can be shot upto 290 kms for 5m2 by increasing TRs.

Which one deploys better technologies/better jamming resistant features and is better for air superiority and air to ground modes. Let me know your thoughts.

China had access to ELM-2052 since 2015 and theyve been making remarkable progress in all tech fields.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2015/08/23/chinese-radar-strongly-resembles-israeli-product/
Because of the emphasis on R&D wont be far off if we can say China now has better if not equal tech than Israel who basically rebuild US research with own branding..

Regarding ELM2052 vs KLJ-7A no way to be sure unless we have another surprise day.

Useless debating it.

 

[Path-Finder]

@WebMaster @Horus @The Eagle Please close this wasteful bandwidth of thread!

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

MLU of J-10A

Can J10C radar fit into it?

 

[LKJ86]

Can J10C radar fit into it?

No.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Reports indicate KLJ might be a RE version of Elta 2052 radar which Israelis sold. So it can be the same...

 

[hacker J]

China had access to ELM-2052 since 2015 and theyve been making remarkable progress in all tech fields.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2015/08/23/chinese-radar-strongly-resembles-israeli-product/
Because of the emphasis on R&D wont be far off if we can say China now has better if not equal tech than Israel who basically rebuild US research with own branding..

Regarding ELM2052 vs KLJ-7A no way to be sure unless we have another surprise day.

Useless debating it.

I was hoping that the information is already flowing in looking at the anticipation of fighters using this radar will be available by 2021. Looks like its still a mystery

Reports indicate KLJ might be a RE version of Elta 2052 radar which Israelis sold. So it can be the same...

I highly doubt it, still could be similar

Can J10C radar fit into it?

I don't think so it can be fitted without highly modified canopy.

 

[Shabi1]

I was hoping that the information is already flowing in looking at the anticipation of fighters using this radar will be available by 2021. Looks like its still a mystery



I highly doubt it, still could be similar



I don't think so it can be fitted without highly modified canopy.

All known is that it matches or exceeds the specs of the air cooled option.

And there is a detailed analysis of a prototype test from a French source, back in 2016-17. Mind you this is a prototype and production variant still not out so expect improvements. Also something interesting is that one of the reasons for delay in JF-17B3 is PAF claims it has in house radar development work going. Which means the base KLJ-7A would be customized by Pakistan and there could be some involvement of Italian Tech.

Ran it through google translate. Original site is in French
http://www.eastpendulum.com/klj-7a-1er-radar-embarque-aesa-chinois-dedie-a-lexport-est-en-vol

After its first public appearance at the Zhuhai Air Show last year, the KLJ-7A , China's first active electronic scanning radar (AESA) entirely dedicated to export, has disappeared from the radar screens. Its manufacturer, the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET), better known as Institute 14 of the CETC group, also remained very discreet on the subject.

And it is in a TV report of the Chinese channel CCTV-2 , broadcast this Monday, November 20, that we learn that this radar candidate for Standard Block III of the Sino-Pakistani fighter JF-17 has in fact already entered its flight test phase.

The journalists had the opportunity to attend one of the tests that took place on November 14, when the KLJ-7A, installed on a test bench flying Y-7 , was tested on its ability to detect multiple fast moving targets over 100 km, stability of the follow-up, as well as the simulation of arms fire. Two J-7 fighters assigned to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) also participated in the test to serve as a target.

The fact that these tests now take place at the CFTE also means that the Chinese on-board radar is on the final stretch before its final validation.


The two J-7s serving as targets in the KLJ-7A radar test (Image; CCTV-2)


Flying Test Bench, Registered 712, for KLJ-7A Radar Flight Test (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A Radar Test Screen (Image; CCTV-2)


The AESA KLJ-7A radar installed under the CFTE Y-7 radome (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A radar exhibited at Zhuhai Air Show 2016

Except for the details already mentioned last year in our file " Airshow China 2016: KLJ-7A, radar at AESA ", namely that it is an AESA radar with more than 1000 transmitters and receivers ( T / R), with at least 11 operating modes and a range of 170 km for targets of 5 m² SER, and able to track 15 different targets and engage 4 simultaneously, we finally could see what the KLJ-7A antennas face, which had been protected and therefore hidden during its exhibition in Zhuhai in November 2016.

Despite the quality of the images in the television report, it is assumed that the antennas are "Notch" type installed in a brick architecture, unlike the "patch" or "slot" type that has already been seen on some PESA embedded radars and Chinese AESA. This shape generates a greater beam width and also a better gain.

Although it is not T-R modules installed in 3D tile as is the case for the AESA radar J-20 hunter, but for a product dedicated to export must know how to adapt to the market and to its customers.

We also learn that the radar can be adapted to most on-board cooling systems, whether it is a system cooled in air or in liquid. This will reduce the cost of replacement on existing devices by preserving some components already installed on board.


Competitor of the KLJ-7A, the Italian AESA radar VIXEN 1000E

It is still unclear whether the KLJ-7A will be chosen by the Pakistan Air Force to equip the JF-17 Block III currently under development at the 611 Chengdu Institute in China, but it will face a significant competitor in its category which is the VIXEN 1000E , designated by the Italian Selex ES for the Swedish hunter Saab Gripen NG / E.

We should therefore relive another Sino-Italian competition as was the case between the Grifo S-7 mechanical radar and the Chinese equivalent KLJ-7 V2 at the time for the JF-17 Block I.

To be continued.

Henri K.