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Karoonjhar Mountains: Commanding Heights

Kindly stop this fantasy.

PA would never penetrate deep into India including Kashmir as it does not has the resources to hold them & keep supplying them thru long and exposed supply lines.

Besides it will be expensive to maintain specially equipped forces for this purposes only & not multi-purposes.
 
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If you take Ladakia, you've neutralized the entire salient of Kutch, including Bhuj air base. This also brings Jamnagar air base within artillery range and puts Dwarka in a very precarious position. Basically you have cut-off and conquered Kutch district.

Now, why would India be bothered with this? Because they are losing an airbase, the 8th largest city in Gujrat, and because Ahmedabad, the 5th largest city in India is now under threat. Therefore, they would be forced to commit major forces to counter such a move.

But this battle for Kutch has to be within a context of a wider battle.

I like the sentiment, but this plan changes the objective for both sides; and wins us less valuable territory, which will also use up our resources to hold, will be a drain rather than a gain. War for Pakistan has always been a costly gamble. The 1965 war derailed our national development, and weakened us internally (due to internal squabbles) to the point where we could not hold the nation together a few short years to the 1971 war.

The current status quo is better for Pakistan's future (focus on economic growth and providing jobs to the people), the military & government should be focused on 1. preventing war, 2. finding ways to confuse/disrupt the enemy to lower the chances of war, 3. and if war is to be fought, make it quick, dramatic, and decisive to achieve a specific objective.

Objectives should be:
1. neutralize the enemy's ability to make war decisively, allowing time for international mediation.
2. hold our own territory so the terms of the ceasefire end on our terms or back to the status quo.
3. frame the war as Indian aggression, knowing full well India will throwing in BS about terrorist camps, state sponsor this and that.
4. build up the viability of "The Sword of Damocles" over the conflict and get India to back down.

Number 3 and 4 we can work on today. Number 1 is were these mountains come in when we are attacking. We don't have much long term to gain by fighting in the Rann of the Kutch. The defensive positions these mountains give us if where Number 2 comes.

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I'll give you a Scenario:
Over the course of 48 hours; A major base in Srinagar is attacked and 40 Indian soldiers are killed, while a further three bases in the nearby hills are attacked and 22 more Indian Soldiers are killed. India claims this is a coordinate attack from across the border to start an uprising. Pakistan Denies. India shows Pictures to the world media. A media firestorm brews for the next 5 days; and the Indian military is mobilized.

This time the mobilization only takes 3 days, because the Indian Military has been preparing for rapid mobilization during the five days of Media firestorm. Indian forces start moving to the border; intentions are unknown, but the numbers increase and assume battle formations. Pakistan too has mobilized and taken up combat positions. Shelling has intensified across the Line of Control.

Call for talks are rebuffed by the Indians. Indian fighters probe Pakistani Air Space testing our defenses, and Pakistan appeals to its allies, but limited help promised. Intelligence shows the Indians plan to air strike locations in Kashmir, Lahore, Rawalpindi and Karachi; claiming Key figures are located there, and were "behind the attacks". They also may be planing to cut the nation in half at the Sindh/Punjab line with 4 corps and 40 attack helicopters backed by 4 squadrons of Rafales and Su-30MKI. The Indian Navy will try to launch a blockade of Karachi and sink Pakistani Flagged vessels entering and leaving port. Another two major thrust in the Sialkot and Lahore sectors are mobilized but may be limited to distract the Pakistani Forces.

You are the Chief of Army Staff; What do you do? Where do you deploy your force in such short order? Will sending ground forces into India help in this crisis? What defenses could you wish you had but now that war is upon you, are kicking yourself you haven't built or procured?
 
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I like the sentiment, but this plan changes the objective for both sides; and wins us less valuable territory, which will also use up our resources to hold, will be a drain rather than a gain. War for Pakistan has always been a costly gamble. The 1965 war derailed our national development, and weakened us internally (due to internal squabbles) to the point where we could not hold the nation together a few short years to the 1971 war.

The current status quo is better for Pakistan's future (focus on economic growth and providing jobs to the people), the military & government should be focused on 1. preventing war, 2. finding ways to confuse/disrupt the enemy to lower the chances of war, 3. and if war is to be fought, make it quick, dramatic, and decisive to achieve a specific objective.

Objectives should be:
1. neutralize the enemy's ability to make war decisively, allowing time for international mediation.
2. hold our own territory so the terms of the ceasefire end on our terms or back to the status quo.
3. frame the war as Indian aggression, knowing full well India will throwing in BS about terrorist camps, state sponsor this and that.
4. build up the viability of "The Sword of Damocles" over the conflict and get India to back down.

Number 3 and 4 we can work on today. Number 1 is were these mountains come in when we are attacking. We don't have much long term to gain by fighting in the Rann of the Kutch. The defensive positions these mountains give us if where Number 2 comes.

-------
I'll give you a Scenario:
Over the course of 48 hours; A major base in Srinagar is attacked and 40 Indian soldiers are killed, while a further three bases in the nearby hills are attacked and 22 more Indian Soldiers are killed. India claims this is a coordinate attack from across the border to start an uprising. Pakistan Denies. India shows Pictures to the world media. A media firestorm brews for the next 5 days; and the Indian military is mobilized.

This time the mobilization only takes 3 days, because the Indian Military has been preparing for rapid mobilization during the five days of Media firestorm. Indian forces start moving to the border; intentions are unknown, but the numbers increase and assume battle formations. Pakistan too has mobilized and taken up combat positions. Shelling has intensified across the Line of Control.

Call for talks are rebuffed by the Indians. Indian fighters probe Pakistani Air Space testing our defenses, and Pakistan appeals to its allies, but limited help promised. Intelligence shows the Indians plan to air strike locations in Kashmir, Lahore, Rawalpindi and Karachi; claiming Key figures are located there, and were "behind the attacks". They also may be planing to cut the nation in half at the Sindh/Punjab line with 4 corps and 40 attack helicopters backed by 4 squadrons of Rafales and Su-30MKI. The Indian Navy will try to launch a blockade of Karachi and sink Pakistani Flagged vessels entering and leaving port. Another two major thrust in the Sialkot and Lahore sectors are mobilized but may be limited to distract the Pakistani Forces.

You are the Chief of Army Staff; What do you do? Where do you deploy your force in such short order? Will sending ground forces into India help in this crisis? What defenses could you wish you had but now that war is upon you, are kicking yourself you haven't built or procured?

Hi Future PAF, you need to read up on the subject of military science a bit better before we can have a meaningful conversation. The above suggests to me you are a little behind where I am and it isn't interesting for me to really engage.

Regarding what I would do if I were the COAS, (I assume Pakistan's first non-Pakistani COAS in a long long time), I would do the following:

1. Do a coup de etat.

2. Bring a hand-picked civilian government into power, emphasizing lack of corruption and competence

3. Begin a blood bath of all corrupt elements in the country. If caught on corruption charges, we will torture them to near death, then publicly flog them to death, in a stadium.

4. Capture even by foreign kidnapping all corrupt elements that stole large sums of money. Torture them and their families till they return on the money, then castrate them.

5. With the money saved, increase government salaries by 50%

6. Make it known that no foreign country can have inordinate influence in the country. Eliminate foreign O and A level and create a local private alternative. No foreign trained Macauley's children to betray Pakistan.

7. Strict policy of not sending soldiers to Europe or the US for training, where they are handpicked to become traitors, brainwashed using subtle methods.

8. No one engaged in procurement for the nation will be allowed to ever set foot outside the country or to send their children abroad.

9. Make it known that we will liberate Kashmir, whether in 3 years, 5 years or 10 years. This is the national goal #1. Make this known informally to the military rank and file, and the R&D. Everyone is expected to get in top shape and do their jobs to the utmost professionalism. R&D will be put on three fold increase and strict orders that the future liberation of Kashmir depends on their hard work. Anyone shirking after that will be dishonorably discharged.

10. Give weapons, training and serious equipment, including SAMs and artillery to Taliban to create a buffer state on the Western front. All Afghan refugees will be forcibly repatriated, if needed, paradropped to whichever part of Afghanistan they came from.

11. A consript supplemental army will be raised, based on matriculating students and degree graduating students. By random lottery, a force of 50,000 will be raised for 6 month conscript duty. This will be complemented by 50,000 more "weekend warriors", salaried but part time soldiers, often recruited from retiring soldiers. This will give the capacity for 20 more infantry brigades, good for defensive holding positions.

All infantry divisions will have one such "People's Brigade" attached, freeing up 20 traditional infantry brigades. These will be reorganized and up-armed into 7 new motorized divisions.

12. Tanks. My best guess is that the Al Khalid has issues and is dependent on too many foreign parts, and too much complexity. We will build a new simplified tank, on the philosophy of the T-34, mass production in numbers. These tanks will have to following salient features:
- have a 76mm gun and not a 125mm one. For anti-tank they will hold 8 ATGMs. Will have local fire control systems, transmissions, and commercially easy to procure (if not produce locally) engines. These will be mass produced with emphasis on ATGM defense - using embedded ERA, and spaced armor design not as ad hoc but designed with the tank from the get-go.

13. CAS aeroplanes. Think modern IL-2 or Stuka. Will be based on the Cold War era British SABA design. Mass produced.

14. Project Azm should be a tailess delta similar to a twin engined Mirage-2000, that has built in stealth from the design stage. V tails and thrust vectoring to compensate for the lack of canards. Weapons will be semi-recessed and conformally carried, making it cheap, simple and easy to maintain. The world's first and only low cost, low maintenance, high sortie rate 5.5 generation stealth fighter. We will call it "Lightening III"

UCAVs for offensive strike and as BVR AAM trucks for networked JFTs and Azms.

15. Dress, national identity. A new national identity will be worked on, that is neither traditional nor borrowed from the West. A competition will be held for the "new dress" for Pakistan. The best design, by popular vote will become the new national dress. The military will have to change their dress to reflect the design choices of this new dress and not be a mirror reflection of British or American design.

All British and American cultural practices in the military will be abolished, and a purge instituted to ensure these institutions stop serving the interests of their former colonial masters.

When the British came, they opened schools and started dressing our children in their clothes and making them speak English. Under the Macauley plan, they used this and similar policies to create a brown sahib Babu culture. We will reverse this by doing what the British did in reverse. All schools will be forbidden to have a British dress code, or to regurgitate British made history and soft sciences.

Stop all Christian and missionary schools that have traditionally been used to create such environments for Muslim children. Instead, Christian schools may be operated by local Christians for their own community only.

16. Once the civilian government has had a go, create a new form of government that is suitable for Pakistan. Democracy is not. This will be called a "Meritocracy", with only people with matriculation being able to vote. People with a degree will get 2 votes. People in the military will get an extra vote. There will only be one legislature.
Voting will be on a continuous flow process rather than a batch process, meaning elections of a few districts in any given year, completing a full cycle every 4 years. This will make managing elections a far less burdensome issue for a populous and underdeveloped country like Pakistan, also it will allow easy monitoring to make sure there is no corruption. Voting will not be first past the post, but rather choice/ranking-based similar to Israel.

17. Continue to fence the Afghan border and make sure no militant madrasas are allowed to operate. At the same time, to ensure Muslims actually know what Islam is, make a project that anyone in government service including the armed forces has to read the Quran in a language they understand at least once. All matriculating students need to have read the Quran at least once in a language they understand to ensure that the nation is not easily swayed by extremists and idiots alike.

18. Attack and capture Kashmir will be the national goal as long as I am COAS. We will wait for a moment when the arrogance of the Indians, knowing no bounds, does another massacre or great injustice on Kashmir. Then showing it has failed to meet UN resolutions, one fine day we will attack, all of a sudden. No holds barred. Air force included. Cruise missiles included. Everything included.
Military will be activated and be aware that India may not wish to keep it limited to Kashmir. If and when India does make it a wider war, we would be prepared for it.

That is my wider context to a counterpunch from the Karoonjhar Mountains. ;)
 
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Hi Future PAF, you need to read up on the subject of military science a bit better before we can have a meaningful conversation. The above suggests to me you are a little behind where I am and it isn't interesting for me to really engage.

Regarding what I would do if I were the COAS, (I assume Pakistan's first non-Pakistani COAS in a long long time), I would do the following:

1. Do a coup de etat.

2. Bring a hand-picked civilian government into power, emphasizing lack of corruption and competence

3. Begin a blood bath of all corrupt elements in the country. If caught on corruption charges, we will torture them to near death, then publicly flog them to death, in a stadium.

4. Capture even by foreign kidnapping all corrupt elements that stole large sums of money. Torture them and their families till they return on the money, then castrate them.

5. With the money saved, increase government salaries by 50%

6. Make it known that no foreign country can have inordinate influence in the country. Eliminate foreign O and A level and create a local private alternative. No foreign trained Macauley's children to betray Pakistan.

7. Strict policy of not sending soldiers to Europe or the US for training, where they are handpicked to become traitors, brainwashed using subtle methods.

8. No one engaged in procurement for the nation will be allowed to ever set foot outside the country or to send their children abroad.

9. Make it known that we will liberate Kashmir, whether in 3 years, 5 years or 10 years. This is the national goal #1. Make this known informally to the military rank and file, and the R&D. Everyone is expected to get in top shape and do their jobs to the utmost professionalism. R&D will be put on three fold increase and strict orders that the future liberation of Kashmir depends on their hard work. Anyone shirking after that will be dishonorably discharged.

10. Give weapons, training and serious equipment, including SAMs and artillery to Taliban to create a buffer state on the Western front. All Afghan refugees will be forcibly repatriated, if needed, paradropped to whichever part of Afghanistan they came from.

11. A consript supplemental army will be raised, based on matriculating students and degree graduating students. By random lottery, a force of 50,000 will be raised for 6 month conscript duty. This will be complemented by 50,000 more "weekend warriors", salaried but part time soldiers, often recruited from retiring soldiers. This will give the capacity for 20 more infantry brigades, good for defensive holding positions.

All infantry divisions will have one such "People's Brigade" attached, freeing up 20 traditional infantry brigades. These will be reorganized and up-armed into 7 new motorized divisions.

12. Tanks. My best guess is that the Al Khalid has issues and is dependent on too many foreign parts, and too much complexity. We will build a new simplified tank, on the philosophy of the T-34, mass production in numbers. These tanks will have to following salient features:
- have a 76mm gun and not a 125mm one. For anti-tank they will hold 8 ATGMs. Will have local fire control systems, transmissions, and commercially easy to procure (if not produce locally) engines. These will be mass produced with emphasis on ATGM defense - using embedded ERA, and spaced armor design not as ad hoc but designed with the tank from the get-go.

13. CAS aeroplanes. Think modern IL-2 or Stuka. Will be based on the Cold War era British SABA design. Mass produced.

14. Project Azm should be a tailess delta similar to a twin engined Mirage-2000, that has built in stealth from the design stage. V tails and thrust vectoring to compensate for the lack of canards. Weapons will be semi-recessed and conformally carried, making it cheap, simple and easy to maintain. The world's first and only low cost, low maintenance, high sortie rate 5.5 generation stealth fighter. We will call it "Lightening III"

UCAVs for offensive strike and as BVR AAM trucks for networked JFTs and Azms.

15. Dress, national identity. A new national identity will be worked on, that is neither traditional nor borrowed from the West. A competition will be held for the "new dress" for Pakistan. The best design, by popular vote will become the new national dress. The military will have to change their dress to reflect the design choices of this new dress and not be a mirror reflection of British or American design.

All British and American cultural practices in the military will be abolished, and a purge instituted to ensure these institutions stop serving the interests of their former colonial masters.

When the British came, they opened schools and started dressing our children in their clothes and making them speak English. Under the Macauley plan, they used this and similar policies to create a brown sahib Babu culture. We will reverse this by doing what the British did in reverse. All schools will be forbidden to have a British dress code, or to regurgitate British made history and soft sciences.

Stop all Christian and missionary schools that have traditionally been used to create such environments for Muslim children. Instead, Christian schools may be operated by local Christians for their own community only.

16. Once the civilian government has had a go, create a new form of government that is suitable for Pakistan. Democracy is not. This will be called a "Meritocracy", with only people with matriculation being able to vote. People with a degree will get 2 votes. People in the military will get an extra vote. There will only be one legislature.
Voting will be on a continuous flow process rather than a batch process, meaning elections of a few districts in any given year, completing a full cycle every 4 years. This will make managing elections a far less burdensome issue for a populous and underdeveloped country like Pakistan, also it will allow easy monitoring to make sure there is no corruption. Voting will not be first past the post, but rather choice/ranking-based similar to Israel.

17. Continue to fence the Afghan border and make sure no militant madrasas are allowed to operate. At the same time, to ensure Muslims actually know what Islam is, make a project that anyone in government service including the armed forces has to read the Quran in a language they understand at least once. All matriculating students need to have read the Quran at least once in a language they understand to ensure that the nation is not easily swayed by extremists and idiots alike.

18. Attack and capture Kashmir will be the national goal as long as I am COAS. We will wait for a moment when the arrogance of the Indians, knowing no bounds, does another massacre or great injustice on Kashmir. Then showing it has failed to meet UN resolutions, one fine day we will attack, all of a sudden. No holds barred. Air force included. Cruise missiles included. Everything included.
Military will be activated and be aware that India may not wish to keep it limited to Kashmir. If and when India does make it a wider war, we would be prepared for it.

That is my wider context to a counterpunch from the Karoonjhar Mountains. ;)
nice dreams .... wake up now lets go to work :woot:
 
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Hi Future PAF, you need to read up on the subject of military science a bit better before we can have a meaningful conversation. The above suggests to me you are a little behind where I am and it isn't interesting for me to really engage.

Regarding what I would do if I were the COAS, (I assume Pakistan's first non-Pakistani COAS in a long long time), I would do the following:

1. Do a coup de etat.

2. Bring a hand-picked civilian government into power, emphasizing lack of corruption and competence

3. Begin a blood bath of all corrupt elements in the country. If caught on corruption charges, we will torture them to near death, then publicly flog them to death, in a stadium.

4. Capture even by foreign kidnapping all corrupt elements that stole large sums of money. Torture them and their families till they return on the money, then castrate them.

5. With the money saved, increase government salaries by 50%

6. Make it known that no foreign country can have inordinate influence in the country. Eliminate foreign O and A level and create a local private alternative. No foreign trained Macauley's children to betray Pakistan.

7. Strict policy of not sending soldiers to Europe or the US for training, where they are handpicked to become traitors, brainwashed using subtle methods.

8. No one engaged in procurement for the nation will be allowed to ever set foot outside the country or to send their children abroad.

9. Make it known that we will liberate Kashmir, whether in 3 years, 5 years or 10 years. This is the national goal #1. Make this known informally to the military rank and file, and the R&D. Everyone is expected to get in top shape and do their jobs to the utmost professionalism. R&D will be put on three fold increase and strict orders that the future liberation of Kashmir depends on their hard work. Anyone shirking after that will be dishonorably discharged.

10. Give weapons, training and serious equipment, including SAMs and artillery to Taliban to create a buffer state on the Western front. All Afghan refugees will be forcibly repatriated, if needed, paradropped to whichever part of Afghanistan they came from.

11. A consript supplemental army will be raised, based on matriculating students and degree graduating students. By random lottery, a force of 50,000 will be raised for 6 month conscript duty. This will be complemented by 50,000 more "weekend warriors", salaried but part time soldiers, often recruited from retiring soldiers. This will give the capacity for 20 more infantry brigades, good for defensive holding positions.

All infantry divisions will have one such "People's Brigade" attached, freeing up 20 traditional infantry brigades. These will be reorganized and up-armed into 7 new motorized divisions.

12. Tanks. My best guess is that the Al Khalid has issues and is dependent on too many foreign parts, and too much complexity. We will build a new simplified tank, on the philosophy of the T-34, mass production in numbers. These tanks will have to following salient features:
- have a 76mm gun and not a 125mm one. For anti-tank they will hold 8 ATGMs. Will have local fire control systems, transmissions, and commercially easy to procure (if not produce locally) engines. These will be mass produced with emphasis on ATGM defense - using embedded ERA, and spaced armor design not as ad hoc but designed with the tank from the get-go.

13. CAS aeroplanes. Think modern IL-2 or Stuka. Will be based on the Cold War era British SABA design. Mass produced.

14. Project Azm should be a tailess delta similar to a twin engined Mirage-2000, that has built in stealth from the design stage. V tails and thrust vectoring to compensate for the lack of canards. Weapons will be semi-recessed and conformally carried, making it cheap, simple and easy to maintain. The world's first and only low cost, low maintenance, high sortie rate 5.5 generation stealth fighter. We will call it "Lightening III"

UCAVs for offensive strike and as BVR AAM trucks for networked JFTs and Azms.

15. Dress, national identity. A new national identity will be worked on, that is neither traditional nor borrowed from the West. A competition will be held for the "new dress" for Pakistan. The best design, by popular vote will become the new national dress. The military will have to change their dress to reflect the design choices of this new dress and not be a mirror reflection of British or American design.

All British and American cultural practices in the military will be abolished, and a purge instituted to ensure these institutions stop serving the interests of their former colonial masters.

When the British came, they opened schools and started dressing our children in their clothes and making them speak English. Under the Macauley plan, they used this and similar policies to create a brown sahib Babu culture. We will reverse this by doing what the British did in reverse. All schools will be forbidden to have a British dress code, or to regurgitate British made history and soft sciences.

Stop all Christian and missionary schools that have traditionally been used to create such environments for Muslim children. Instead, Christian schools may be operated by local Christians for their own community only.

16. Once the civilian government has had a go, create a new form of government that is suitable for Pakistan. Democracy is not. This will be called a "Meritocracy", with only people with matriculation being able to vote. People with a degree will get 2 votes. People in the military will get an extra vote. There will only be one legislature.
Voting will be on a continuous flow process rather than a batch process, meaning elections of a few districts in any given year, completing a full cycle every 4 years. This will make managing elections a far less burdensome issue for a populous and underdeveloped country like Pakistan, also it will allow easy monitoring to make sure there is no corruption. Voting will not be first past the post, but rather choice/ranking-based similar to Israel.

17. Continue to fence the Afghan border and make sure no militant madrasas are allowed to operate. At the same time, to ensure Muslims actually know what Islam is, make a project that anyone in government service including the armed forces has to read the Quran in a language they understand at least once. All matriculating students need to have read the Quran at least once in a language they understand to ensure that the nation is not easily swayed by extremists and idiots alike.

18. Attack and capture Kashmir will be the national goal as long as I am COAS. We will wait for a moment when the arrogance of the Indians, knowing no bounds, does another massacre or great injustice on Kashmir. Then showing it has failed to meet UN resolutions, one fine day we will attack, all of a sudden. No holds barred. Air force included. Cruise missiles included. Everything included.
Military will be activated and be aware that India may not wish to keep it limited to Kashmir. If and when India does make it a wider war, we would be prepared for it.

That is my wider context to a counterpunch from the Karoonjhar Mountains. ;)

Interesting conversation? I know I'm no Professional (never claimed I was), but the military establishment has had the leeway to shape the nation's cultural development for the last 40 years. In that time the haven't implemented most of your 18 points. They are professionals, and I gather there must be reasons they haven't started national conscription or a new national dress. The spirit of your post is that of cleaning house and let everyone know they need to shape up, and while that may be a great number of ways to change society for the better, it is more social science than military science. No reason some of the things you mentioned can't or shouldn't be done, but the still don't address the fundamental battle situation. Getting bogged down fighting the good fight and changing society is still ignoring that you still have to plan for battle. (Also most of these points are way from military science, so I think you may be "taking the piss out of me" hence the smiley; :-))
 
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I'll give you a Scenario:
Over the course of 48 hours; A major base in Srinagar is attacked and 40 Indian soldiers are killed, while a further three bases in the nearby hills are attacked and 22 more Indian Soldiers are killed. India claims this is a coordinate attack from across the border to start an uprising. Pakistan Denies. India shows Pictures to the world media. A media firestorm brews for the next 5 days; and the Indian military is mobilized.

This time the mobilization only takes 3 days, because the Indian Military has been preparing for rapid mobilization during the five days of Media firestorm. Indian forces start moving to the border; intentions are unknown, but the numbers increase and assume battle formations. Pakistan too has mobilized and taken up combat positions. Shelling has intensified across the Line of Control.

Call for talks are rebuffed by the Indians. Indian fighters probe Pakistani Air Space testing our defenses, and Pakistan appeals to its allies, but limited help promised. Intelligence shows the Indians plan to air strike locations in Kashmir, Lahore, Rawalpindi and Karachi; claiming Key figures are located there, and were "behind the attacks". They also may be planing to cut the nation in half at the Sindh/Punjab line with 4 corps and 40 attack helicopters backed by 4 squadrons of Rafales and Su-30MKI. The Indian Navy will try to launch a blockade of Karachi and sink Pakistani Flagged vessels entering and leaving port. Another two major thrust in the Sialkot and Lahore sectors are mobilized but may be limited to distract the Pakistani Forces.

You are the Chief of Army Staff; What do you do? Where do you deploy your force in such short order? Will sending ground forces into India help in this crisis? What defenses could you wish you had but now that war is upon you, are kicking yourself you haven't built or procured?
No offense, the above scenario is planned by MO Department, headed by DGMO, so you should be addressing the DGMO and not the COAS:D

Hi Future PAF, you need to read up on the subject of military science a bit better before we can have a meaningful conversation. The above suggests to me you are a little behind where I am and it isn't interesting for me to really engage.

Regarding what I would do if I were the COAS, (I assume Pakistan's first non-Pakistani COAS in a long long time), I would do the following:

1. Do a coup de etat.

2. Bring a hand-picked civilian government into power, emphasizing lack of corruption and competence

3. Begin a blood bath of all corrupt elements in the country. If caught on corruption charges, we will torture them to near death, then publicly flog them to death, in a stadium.

4. Capture even by foreign kidnapping all corrupt elements that stole large sums of money. Torture them and their families till they return on the money, then castrate them.

5. With the money saved, increase government salaries by 50%

6. Make it known that no foreign country can have inordinate influence in the country. Eliminate foreign O and A level and create a local private alternative. No foreign trained Macauley's children to betray Pakistan.

7. Strict policy of not sending soldiers to Europe or the US for training, where they are handpicked to become traitors, brainwashed using subtle methods.

8. No one engaged in procurement for the nation will be allowed to ever set foot outside the country or to send their children abroad.

9. Make it known that we will liberate Kashmir, whether in 3 years, 5 years or 10 years. This is the national goal #1. Make this known informally to the military rank and file, and the R&D. Everyone is expected to get in top shape and do their jobs to the utmost professionalism. R&D will be put on three fold increase and strict orders that the future liberation of Kashmir depends on their hard work. Anyone shirking after that will be dishonorably discharged.

10. Give weapons, training and serious equipment, including SAMs and artillery to Taliban to create a buffer state on the Western front. All Afghan refugees will be forcibly repatriated, if needed, paradropped to whichever part of Afghanistan they came from.

11. A consript supplemental army will be raised, based on matriculating students and degree graduating students. By random lottery, a force of 50,000 will be raised for 6 month conscript duty. This will be complemented by 50,000 more "weekend warriors", salaried but part time soldiers, often recruited from retiring soldiers. This will give the capacity for 20 more infantry brigades, good for defensive holding positions.

All infantry divisions will have one such "People's Brigade" attached, freeing up 20 traditional infantry brigades. These will be reorganized and up-armed into 7 new motorized divisions.

12. Tanks. My best guess is that the Al Khalid has issues and is dependent on too many foreign parts, and too much complexity. We will build a new simplified tank, on the philosophy of the T-34, mass production in numbers. These tanks will have to following salient features:
- have a 76mm gun and not a 125mm one. For anti-tank they will hold 8 ATGMs. Will have local fire control systems, transmissions, and commercially easy to procure (if not produce locally) engines. These will be mass produced with emphasis on ATGM defense - using embedded ERA, and spaced armor design not as ad hoc but designed with the tank from the get-go.

13. CAS aeroplanes. Think modern IL-2 or Stuka. Will be based on the Cold War era British SABA design. Mass produced.

14. Project Azm should be a tailess delta similar to a twin engined Mirage-2000, that has built in stealth from the design stage. V tails and thrust vectoring to compensate for the lack of canards. Weapons will be semi-recessed and conformally carried, making it cheap, simple and easy to maintain. The world's first and only low cost, low maintenance, high sortie rate 5.5 generation stealth fighter. We will call it "Lightening III"

UCAVs for offensive strike and as BVR AAM trucks for networked JFTs and Azms.

15. Dress, national identity. A new national identity will be worked on, that is neither traditional nor borrowed from the West. A competition will be held for the "new dress" for Pakistan. The best design, by popular vote will become the new national dress. The military will have to change their dress to reflect the design choices of this new dress and not be a mirror reflection of British or American design.

All British and American cultural practices in the military will be abolished, and a purge instituted to ensure these institutions stop serving the interests of their former colonial masters.

When the British came, they opened schools and started dressing our children in their clothes and making them speak English. Under the Macauley plan, they used this and similar policies to create a brown sahib Babu culture. We will reverse this by doing what the British did in reverse. All schools will be forbidden to have a British dress code, or to regurgitate British made history and soft sciences.

Stop all Christian and missionary schools that have traditionally been used to create such environments for Muslim children. Instead, Christian schools may be operated by local Christians for their own community only.

16. Once the civilian government has had a go, create a new form of government that is suitable for Pakistan. Democracy is not. This will be called a "Meritocracy", with only people with matriculation being able to vote. People with a degree will get 2 votes. People in the military will get an extra vote. There will only be one legislature.
Voting will be on a continuous flow process rather than a batch process, meaning elections of a few districts in any given year, completing a full cycle every 4 years. This will make managing elections a far less burdensome issue for a populous and underdeveloped country like Pakistan, also it will allow easy monitoring to make sure there is no corruption. Voting will not be first past the post, but rather choice/ranking-based similar to Israel.

17. Continue to fence the Afghan border and make sure no militant madrasas are allowed to operate. At the same time, to ensure Muslims actually know what Islam is, make a project that anyone in government service including the armed forces has to read the Quran in a language they understand at least once. All matriculating students need to have read the Quran at least once in a language they understand to ensure that the nation is not easily swayed by extremists and idiots alike.

18. Attack and capture Kashmir will be the national goal as long as I am COAS. We will wait for a moment when the arrogance of the Indians, knowing no bounds, does another massacre or great injustice on Kashmir. Then showing it has failed to meet UN resolutions, one fine day we will attack, all of a sudden. No holds barred. Air force included. Cruise missiles included. Everything included.
Military will be activated and be aware that India may not wish to keep it limited to Kashmir. If and when India does make it a wider war, we would be prepared for it.

That is my wider context to a counterpunch from the Karoonjhar Mountains. ;)

@FuturePAF , had you asked @Armchair to plan as DGMO, the outcome of this post would have been very different :enjoy:

Interesting conversation? I know I'm no Professional (never claimed I was), but the military establishment has had the leeway to shape the nation's cultural development for the last 40 years. In that time the haven't implemented most of your 18 points. They are professionals, and I gather there must be reasons they haven't started national conscription or a new national dress. The spirit of your post is that of cleaning house and let everyone know they need to shape up, and while that may be a great number of ways to change society for the better, it is more social science than military science. No reason some of the things you mentioned can't or shouldn't be done, but the still don't address the fundamental battle situation. Getting bogged down fighting the good fight and changing society is still ignoring that you still have to plan for battle. (Also most of these points are way from military science, so I think you may be "taking the piss out of me" hence the smiley; :-))
@Armchair is not taking the piss out of you :partay: You made him COAS instead of DGMO, thats all.

and look what he does when you assign him as COAS :azn:
 
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No offense, the above scenario is planned by MO Department, headed by DGMO, so you should be addressing the DGMO and not the COAS:D



@FuturePAF , had you asked @Armchair to plan as DGMO, the outcome of this post would have been very different :enjoy:


@Armchair is not taking the piss out of you :partay: You made him COAS instead of DGMO, thats all.

and look what he does when you assign him as COAS :azn:

Haha Signalian I want you to be DGMO and paint us a nice picture and scenario : )
 
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Kindly stop this fantasy.

PA would never penetrate deep into India including Kashmir as it does not has the resources to hold them & keep supplying them thru long and exposed supply lines.

Besides it will be expensive to maintain specially equipped forces for this purposes only & not multi-purposes.
Lols what we did during Kargill war?
 
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No offense, the above scenario is planned by MO Department, headed by DGMO, so you should be addressing the DGMO and not the COAS:D



@FuturePAF , had you asked @Armchair to plan as DGMO, the outcome of this post would have been very different :enjoy:


@Armchair is not taking the piss out of you :partay: You made him COAS instead of DGMO, thats all.

and look what he does when you assign him as COAS :azn:

Thanks for the corrections; Like I said, not a professional, just an amateur that will miss the finer details, hopefully only sometimes, and appreciates other knowledgeable people helping to fill in the gap.

Alright then, As DGMO, what would you do? @Armchair

BTW; lets make it interesting, set the scenario during Ramzan, as war may come at anytime.

Ramzan Mubarak to all
 
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Thanks for the corrections; Like I said, not a professional, just an amateur that will miss the finer details, hopefully only sometimes, and appreciates other knowledgeable people helping to fill in the gap.

Alright then, As DGMO, what would you do? @Armchair

BTW; lets make it interesting, set the scenario during Ramzan, as war may come at anytime.

Ramzan Mubarak to all


Ramadan Mubarak to you too my brother.

I learned a lot of the stuff I know from this forum, from a poster who became a friend, Panzer Kiel was his ID. I lost touch with him but I miss him dearly.
Don't worry my friend, we are all here to learn from each other.

Signalian has painted the scenario beautifully as to what the situation would be if you look at his post. This is actually what the military planners in Pakistan expect.

As @Signalian has shown, there is little possibility of maneuver warfare between Sialkot and Lahore. Down South, the desert is not like other deserts but a quagmire, again severely restricting maneuver.

So really, the main battles will take place between Hyderabad and Multan. Between the desert and the fortress to the north.

Both Indian and Pakistani military planners are well aware of this.

Basically, the picture both sides paint is India attacking this sector to cut Pakistan into two, and Pakistani forces defending against this with a long North-South trench and water barrier, ambushes, and a strong defensive line. Not to mention Nasr and other SRBMs, both conventional and nuclear tipped.

This is what the "orthodoxy" is.

However, this is uninteresting to me. I don't believe in orthodoxy nor in playing defensive. The purpose of true military operations is to completely decimate and anhiliate the enemy. If you are not planning to do this, IMHO, you're not doing your job.

You can't manage to do this with the given ORBAT and equipment. It is obvious one has to rethink equipment, manpower and industry. Without that fundamental change, there is no meaning for me to this.








 
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Ramadan Mubarak to you too my brother.

I learned a lot of the stuff I know from this forum, from a poster who became a friend, Panzer Kiel was his ID. I lost touch with him but I miss him dearly.
Don't worry my friend, we are all here to learn from each other.

Signalian has painted the scenario beautifully as to what the situation would be if you look at his post. This is actually what the military planners in Pakistan expect.

As @Signalian has shown, there is little possibility of maneuver warfare between Sialkot and Lahore. Down South, the desert is not like other deserts but a quagmire, again severely restricting maneuver.

So really, the main battles will take place between Hyderabad and Multan. Between the desert and the fortress to the north.

Both Indian and Pakistani military planners are well aware of this.

Basically, the picture both sides paint is India attacking this sector to cut Pakistan into two, and Pakistani forces defending against this with a long North-South trench and water barrier, ambushes, and a strong defensive line. Not to mention Nasr and other SRBMs, both conventional and nuclear tipped.

This is what the "orthodoxy" is.

However, this is uninteresting to me. I don't believe in orthodoxy nor in playing defensive. The purpose of true military operations is to completely decimate and anhiliate the enemy. If you are not planning to do this, IMHO, you're not doing your job.

You can't manage to do this with the given ORBAT and equipment. It is obvious one has to rethink equipment, manpower and industry. Without that fundamental change, there is no meaning for me to this.







Panzer Kiel joined Army a few years back, i guided him about PMA on a different PDF.

He joined a Mechanised Infantry Battalion.

Must be a major or about-to-be major now.
 
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Ramadan Mubarak to you too my brother.

I learned a lot of the stuff I know from this forum, from a poster who became a friend, Panzer Kiel was his ID. I lost touch with him but I miss him dearly.
Don't worry my friend, we are all here to learn from each other.

Signalian has painted the scenario beautifully as to what the situation would be if you look at his post. This is actually what the military planners in Pakistan expect.

As @Signalian has shown, there is little possibility of maneuver warfare between Sialkot and Lahore. Down South, the desert is not like other deserts but a quagmire, again severely restricting maneuver.

So really, the main battles will take place between Hyderabad and Multan. Between the desert and the fortress to the north.

Both Indian and Pakistani military planners are well aware of this.

Basically, the picture both sides paint is India attacking this sector to cut Pakistan into two, and Pakistani forces defending against this with a long North-South trench and water barrier, ambushes, and a strong defensive line. Not to mention Nasr and other SRBMs, both conventional and nuclear tipped.

This is what the "orthodoxy" is.

However, this is uninteresting to me. I don't believe in orthodoxy nor in playing defensive. The purpose of true military operations is to completely decimate and anhiliate the enemy. If you are not planning to do this, IMHO, you're not doing your job.

You can't manage to do this with the given ORBAT and equipment. It is obvious one has to rethink equipment, manpower and industry. Without that fundamental change, there is no meaning for me to this.








Definitely, Annihilating the enemy has to be planned, procured, and mentally prepared for. When I noticed these mountains, I figured it was a good defensive position, with considerable offensive potential. Any other location would be too far from the border, and require more resources.

In your Wider context post; you stated winning Kashmir was Priority # 1. I wholeheartedly agree; but I think the economic path has to be a big part of it. Trading the Indian national Market, for linking up with Pakistan, and CPEC can be a trade up for the Kashmirs if we develop our economy, job market, and social services. Internal stability is also key.

As far as military equipment though, we know we don't have a large amount of money to spend 1 for 1 with the Indians, but what asymmetric weapons or strategies would be best in the context for what strategic mission has already planned out.

I figured we could use old F-7PG; when retired from the PAF, as PGM carriers (sensor fuzed cruise missiles, anti-tank SDB-II Chinese equivalents, long range glide weapons, and long range anti-radiation missiles to knock out the air defenses), similar to how the Chinese are using the J-8s. we already have 8 squadrons worth, a minor upgrade to make them relevant in modern CAS can really go a long way. If this strategy seems viable, we could procure more retiring PLAAF J-7s and upgrading to our "Modern CAS specs", and free up the PAF to fight the air war. no longer would we stretching the PAF beyond reason. the F-7s Fleet could be the PA-AF (Pakistan Army Air Force).
 
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