JF17:---More Hard Points Bigger Engine---Why!!!!!

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Some posters are still wanting a bigger engine ( not understanding that a more powerful engine would also put more stress on the frame as well thus reducing the life of the frame).

Some are wanting more hard points---actually most are wanting more hard points---and I do not know what they would do with them---.

The combat on the 27th proved a few points and shattered many a myth---. What it proved was---what I have been saying for a longtime---and what analysts have stated over the decade---most aircraft getting into a conflict will die without launching their missiles.

It proved to be 100% correct---the only aircraft that fell on pour side---had all its missiles intact---. Supposedly---the SU30 that we shot down---also did not launch any missiles---.

So---the myth for having a large number of missiles and spraying them in the air against other aircraft like a water coming from a hose has been busted so far---we are talking about CONVENTIONAL AIRCRAFT and not the 5th gen aircraft for the matter of discussion---.

What has also come true is that the one who fires the first shot---has a better chance of survival amongst equal type of aircraft---.

Now why I would ask for a 25% larger aircraft---it was for the reason that it could carry two large 1000 Kg weight category AShM---the reasoning behind the japanese F2.

The second reason was---as the technology would advance---there would be better availability of modular techno gizmos that could be mounted all around on the aircraft in designated spots---giving it a better 360* situational awareness---basing it on the fact that the one who can see better---either thru the electronic eye or thru his own eyes would have better situational control of the skies---.

For air forces with similar capabilities---lock---launch and dash would be the key to a successful operation---.

So again---whomsoever has better situational awareness will control the roost---.

More money needs to be spent on these items rather than those for show---. The proof is in the pudding now---. Now let us focus on conveying the right message and change our thinking---even though it is very difficult to get thru the skulls of my pakistani brethren and children---.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Some posters are still wanting a bigger engine ( not understanding that a more powerful engine would also put more stress on the frame as well thus reducing the life of the frame).

Some are wanting more hard points---actually most are wanting more hard points---and I do not know what they would do with them---.
-.

that will make it a different plane. not a JF-17 but maybe JF18. might as well switch to J-10 instead of reinventing the wheel

 

[Signalian]

Any more resources and time should be diverted to 5th Gen aircraft. There are limits to what can be achieved from JF-17.

 

[Darth Vader]

27th was a one off so please stop using that
For a longer war
Better engine
Bigger engine if its size is different from current one air frame will need changes
More hardpoints
You need better and stronger wings with frame a stronger engine which can increase take off capacity and Systems which can actually support that

For a full on war Pakistan will need one fleet of birds to do max number of sorties with less maintenance time so they can provide most flight time which thunder will do

Pakistan need 2 to 3 Squad for Dedicated role beside adding 150 block 1 & 2 & 3
With few Better EW & different AESA config but with ability to communicate
That way few lead platforms will lead will other birds fly with them

No point in going for a 4th Jen bird beside thunder instead save and go for a chinese 5th gen bird with building its own bird which can build local industry and capabilities

 

[The SC]

Any more resources and time should be diverted to 5th Gen aircraft. There are limits to what can be achieved from JF-17.

That is right: Project Azm..

https://quwa.org/2018/12/20/ideas-2018-project-azm-updates-2/

 

[Trailer23]

Since the topic is based on Bigger Engines, here is a comparison of speed to date, here is a video clip I found last week...

The JF-17 currently ranks #32 out of 36. Now I do want to point out that this list has some dated Aircrafts, aswell.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi,

Some posters are still wanting a bigger engine ( not understanding that a more powerful engine would also put more stress on the frame as well thus reducing the life of the frame).

Some are wanting more hard points---actually most are wanting more hard points---and I do not know what they would do with them---.

The combat on the 27th proved a few points and shattered many a myth---. What it proved was---what I have been saying for a longtime---and what analysts have stated over the decade---most aircraft getting into a conflict will die without launching their missiles.

It proved to be 100% correct---the only aircraft that fell on pour side---had all its missiles intact---. Supposedly---the SU30 that we shot down---also did not launch any missiles---.

So---the myth for having a large number of missiles and spraying them in the air against other aircraft like a water coming from a hose has been busted so far---we are talking about CONVENTIONAL AIRCRAFT and not the 5th gen aircraft for the matter of discussion---.

What has also come true is that the one who fires the first shot---has a better chance of survival amongst equal type of aircraft---.

Now why I would ask for a 25% larger aircraft---it was for the reason that it could carry two large 1000 Kg weight category AShM---the reasoning behind the japanese F2.

The second reason was---as the technology would advance---there would be better availability of modular techno gizmos that could be mounted all around on the aircraft in designated spots---giving it a better 360* situational awareness---basing it on the fact that the one who can see better---either thru the electronic eye or thru his own eyes would have better situational control of the skies---.

For air forces with similar capabilities---lock---launch and dash would be the key to a successful operation---.

So again---whomsoever has better situational awareness will control the roost---.

More money needs to be spent on these items rather than those for show---. The proof is in the pudding now---. Now let us focus on conveying the right message and change our thinking---even though it is very difficult to get thru the skulls of my pakistani brethren and children---.

i absolutely agree with you sir but this engine is underpowered.We can clearly see it in its muscle climb.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi MK, Excellent question.

Irrespective, engine development will continue.
As we already know, TWR of jF-17 was +1, now with upgraded engine having thrust figure of +9000kgf it surely would be tempting for the PAC.
Fact is we are going to see some extra load on engine.
In block-3 there will be more fuel pockets, AESA, and PL-15 in A2A making use of the extra thrust. In A2G multiple bomb carriage racks can make use of it.
In will not be surprised, if they add few inches to the fuselage!
Advance EW suite, multi point data link, also require extra power.

 

[MastanKhan]

Since the topic is based on Bigger Engines, here is a comparison of speed to date, here is a video clip I found last week...

The JF-17 currently ranks #32 out of 36. Now I do want to point out that this list has some dated Aircrafts, aswell.

Hi,

In air combat---naval combat or otherwise---SPEED IS NOTHING---it is ALL ABOUT ACCELERATIOn---about---how quick can your engine spool up---and how fast you can attain " escape velocity ".

The numbers that you have are just for show---.

The JF17---can take out any of these aircraft that are 4th gen aircraft and maybe some 4.5 gen aircraft as well---.

And the topic is not based on the need of a bigger engine but rather there is no need for a bigger engine or a list of priorities---.

 

[Thorough Pro]

The only benefit I see with more hard points is to carry more pods without sacrificing EFT's or 4 AAM loadout. A bigger engine can power up more powerful radar and jammers.

For air superiority role and engaging large attack parties, as we say in recent skirmishes, more bvrs would definitely help in engaging more targets thus distracting them from their basic objective.

Hi,

Some posters are still wanting a bigger engine ( not understanding that a more powerful engine would also put more stress on the frame as well thus reducing the life of the frame).

Some are wanting more hard points---actually most are wanting more hard points---and I do not know what they would do with them---.

The combat on the 27th proved a few points and shattered many a myth---. What it proved was---what I have been saying for a longtime---and what analysts have stated over the decade---most aircraft getting into a conflict will die without launching their missiles.

It proved to be 100% correct---the only aircraft that fell on pour side---had all its missiles intact---. Supposedly---the SU30 that we shot down---also did not launch any missiles---.

So---the myth for having a large number of missiles and spraying them in the air against other aircraft like a water coming from a hose has been busted so far---we are talking about CONVENTIONAL AIRCRAFT and not the 5th gen aircraft for the matter of discussion---.

What has also come true is that the one who fires the first shot---has a better chance of survival amongst equal type of aircraft---.

Now why I would ask for a 25% larger aircraft---it was for the reason that it could carry two large 1000 Kg weight category AShM---the reasoning behind the japanese F2.

The second reason was---as the technology would advance---there would be better availability of modular techno gizmos that could be mounted all around on the aircraft in designated spots---giving it a better 360* situational awareness---basing it on the fact that the one who can see better---either thru the electronic eye or thru his own eyes would have better situational control of the skies---.

For air forces with similar capabilities---lock---launch and dash would be the key to a successful operation---.

So again---whomsoever has better situational awareness will control the roost---.

More money needs to be spent on these items rather than those for show---. The proof is in the pudding now---. Now let us focus on conveying the right message and change our thinking---even though it is very difficult to get thru the skulls of my pakistani brethren and children---.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi,

In air combat---naval combat or otherwise---SPEED IS NOTHING---it is ALL ABOUT ACCELERATIOn---about---how quick can your engine spool up---and how fast you can attain " escape velocity ".

The numbers that you have are just for show---.

The JF17---can take out any of these aircraft that are 4th gen aircraft and maybe some 4.5 gen aircraft as well---.

And the topic is not based on the need of a bigger engine but rather there is no need for a bigger engine or a list of priorities---.

not a bigger but a slightly more powerful i. e 10% or more with FADEC will significantly improve its performance.

 

[Awan68]

In an all out war, aircraft with more hardpoints could stick around for more kills, it is as simple as that.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Let me tell all of you, a story narrated by the daughter of Maulana Moudoodi - after his death.

She describes that in his last days, Maulana was ill. This would be very late 70s.
One day, two PAF officers came to visit him.
They were both PAF fighter pilots.

The two officers described a dream they (either one of them, or both - I don't exactly remember) had seen.

In the dream they saw a world where the Jews were killing Muslims without any inhibition.
So much so that they would kill a Muslim and then hang the meat, like the butchers hang on their shops.
This was widespread scenario and there was no one to stop it.

The two officers asked Maulana, what would / could be interpretation of this dream.

First, Maulana was very surprised - mostly because that the PAF officers came to see him with such a story.
His (maulana) thought was that such dreams are usually observed by Sufis and Saints - and hence he was surprised.

His interpretation was, that a time will come when the Jews will attack and kill the Muslims without any inhibition.
And …. he concluded ….. that PAF will play a very big role in that time to turn the things around.

If you look at the events of today's world, even the very recent events in Pakistan and New Zealand, this is pretty evident that we are living in those times.
Now! If you look at "Project Azm" - you can also see what is to come.

Wallah-Ho-Alam.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi MK, Excellent question.

Irrespective, engine development will continue.
As we already know, TWR of jF-17 was +1, now with upgraded engine having thrust figure of +9000kgf it surely would be tempting for the PAC.
Fact is we are going to see some extra load on engine.
In block-3 there will be more fuel pockets, AESA, and PL-15 in A2A making use of the extra thrust. In A2G multiple bomb carriage racks can make use of it.
In will not be surprised, if they add few inches to the fuselage!
Advance EW suite, multi point data link, also require extra power.

sir you are hinting at rd 93ma

 

[Vortex]

In an all out war, airfcraft with more hardpoints could stick around for more kills, it is as simple as that.

@MastanKhan
Adding the fact that modern radars are capable of tracking and engaging more and more targets.

So it’s important to have the capability to have more hardpoints.

And the height from the ground should be risen a little bit in order to be able to carry bigger missiles easily like ra’ad.

If it to costly, then this kind of problem/requirements should be studied for AZM project.

I don’t know if it is true or not, but I read years ago that F-14 platform was made for a specific weapon : the phoenix’s missiles. I mean it was stated that usually weapons were made for p’ateform, but in the case of F14, it was opposite : the plateforme was made for a weapon system. It was a different philosophy.
I don’t know which philosophy apply in the case of JF17, and which one will apply for AZM project. Is it important ? Which one is better if ever such philosophy exist ?

I hope these problems are in mind /studied for AZM program and we will not finish like the JF17 where we saw its limitations today.

All of you are experts which I’m definitely not. So I could be wrong.