JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Dazzler]

Just to paraphrase the facts. The local indian media carried the interview of one of the AVM of Indian airforce in which he claimed following things

* Original target was Bhawalpur Seminary of JEM. But due to high collateral damage, they changed the target last miniute

* On 26 Night when Indian strike package flew from the airbase, Indian AWAC in the air picked up large swarm of Pakistani fighter jets patrolling over Islamabad and AJK Sector

* Indians Decided to distract Pakistani Airforce immediately by sending the same size of Balakot Strike Package to two different sectors to divert their attention so Balakot package can sneak in and do the strike

* We know from Pakistani DGISPR as well as from Indians that Indian send two strike packages in Bhawalpur sector and one more sector which Distracted Pakistani airforce


* Indians Re-routed their strike Package through a long route over Punjab and they refueled their airplanes as well on the way to Kashmir Sector

*So the reason why the Balakot Strike Package wasnt detected immediately because of the trajectory it took. Mainland India, Punjab and then Kashmir.

* DGISPR Admitted as much they intruded 6-7 NM inside Pakistan which is 10 KM roughly. While Pakistani Airforce was successfully distracted, they sneak into Kashmir Sector and Released the payload and intruded Pakistani Airspace but the PAF CAP by that time was alerted to intercept them and IAF returned back

* One of the Mirages Failed to release one of that SOW which were to record the Balakot strike like H-Weapon but That SOW malfunctioned to release from Mirage


So All in All, 26 FEB exposed one thing of PAF very badly. It can't handle Multiple intrusions at the same time.

Its the other way around, the IAF of today can make a mess of even the best PGM system and run away in panic without verifying whether the objective was neutralized or not. OTOH, the PAF despite being outnumbered, maintained better surveillance and kept them in check. We are talking about minutes/ seconds, not hours.

 

[StormBreaker]

Its the other way around, the IAF of today can make a mess of even the best PGM system and run away in panic without verifying whether the objective was neutralized or not. OTOH, the PAF despite being outnumbered, maintained better surveillance and kept them in check. We are talking about minutes/ seconds, not hours.

A chief of specific air command, who has conflicts on multiple fronts, can definitely get distracted and burdened while making decisions.

 

[aliyusuf]

A chief of specific air command, who has conflicts on multiple fronts, can definitely get distracted and burdened while making decisions.

Monitoring and analysis is not done alone ... there are other senior staff always available to assist and share the load. With modern net-centric warfare infrastructure & capabilities in place and AEW&C platforms in operation ... such situations are greatly mitigated.

The only issue could be the numbers disparity, which could lead to a scenario where the "n"th IAF incursion group cannot be challenged with sufficient numbers from the PAF as it's assets may get spread out thin facing off other incursion groups attacking from multiple separate locations.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bratva]

So how would you judge a much larger IAF..?
Didnt we replicated the strike in much better way

Its the other way around, the IAF of today can make a mess of even the best PGM system and run away in panic without verifying whether the objective was neutralized or not. OTOH, the PAF despite being outnumbered, maintained better surveillance and kept them in check. We are talking about minutes/ seconds, not hours.

Not only PAF weaknesses were exposed, But IAF weaknesses were exposed on much larger scale. They knew retaliation was coming. It came in broad day light. They panicked and shot down their own helicopter. Their training and tactics failed that day. Abhinandan was disobeying Air defence controller. Indians were in a much bigger haphazard on 27 morning on how to deal with PAF Strike Package. If we go by Kaiser Tufail Account. The whole Battle took 30-40 Minutes. IAF was not able to neutralize the PAF superiority in 30-40 minutes and in the course they lost their Helicopter as well as fighter Jet. Say something about their Professionalism.

Indian weaknesses are their hubris that their enemy is weak and they don't have to put in much effort to subdue their enemy. They got the taste of their own medicine

A chief of specific air command, who has conflicts on multiple fronts, can definitely get distracted and burdened while making decisions.

Monitoring and analysis is not done alone ... there are other senior staff always available to assist and share the load. With modern net-centric warfare infrastructure & capabilities in place and AEW&C platforms in operation ... such situations are greatly mitigated.

The only issue could be the numbers disparity, which could lead to a scenario where the "n"th IAF incursion group cannot be challenged with sufficient numbers from the PAF as it's assets may get spread out thin facing off other incursion groups attacking from multiple separate locations.

Just my 2 cents.

Ali Is right. Listen to 26 feb DGISPR Press conference once again in which he said, the SOP is once a CAP is diverted to challenge enemy strike package, " More Jets fly to replace that CAP in that sector" as fighter jets cant remain in air 24/7.

Which means, once the PAF CAP was flying over Central sector as per DGISPR, so more jets were flown from the airbase to replace that CAP. Not that Some other CAP was in AIR and that CAP was scrambled to hold the fort in that empty sector. So it was obvious that it would take standard 5-10 mints for jets flying from airbase to intercept the Balakot Strike Package as the nearest PAF airbase would be Minhas airbase (JF-17) or Mushaf Airbase (F-16)


India rightly deduce that 5-10 mint window and exploited that. Also Keep in 10 KM No Fly Zone in which PAF can only warn the jets to return back to their base and can't shoot down the enemy jets as it was still PEACETIME flying

Why do you think PAF can't handle multiple intrsions at same time??? Lack of interceptors or unpreparedness???

Simple is that. Number game as well as you can't have 24 Hour CAP as it wears out the jets pretty quick. To properly defend Pakistani airspace adjacent to India, we need at-least 50-100 fighter jets flying in 3 Sectors simultaneously and considering their endurance would be b/w 1-3 hours. You can do the calculations how expensive and resource heavy it is to replace the 50-100 aircrafts every 2-3 hours.


Compare that to IAF CAP on the morning of 27th FEB. Only 8 Fighter jets were patrolling the entire the Kashmir sector from Indian side along with an AEWC and PAF Strike package easily distracted and dispersed them with BVR shots and as per PAF aircheif JF-17 hold the Mirages in one Kashmir sector so that mirages and JF-17 can do the ground strike while F-16 dispersed the SU-30 with BVR shots . Just to give you an idea about the number game of CAP

 

[Ghessan]

Not only PAF weaknesses were exposed, But IAF weaknesses were exposed on much larger scale. They knew retaliation was coming. It came in broad day light. They panicked and shot down their own helicopter. Their training and tactics failed that day. Abhinandan was disobeying Air defence controller. Indians were in a much bigger haphazard on 27 morning on how to deal with PAF Strike Package. If we go by Kaiser Tufail Account. The whole Battle took 30-40 Minutes. IAF was not able to neutralize the PAF superiority in 30-40 minutes and in the course they lost their Helicopter as well as fighter Jet. Say something about their Professionalism.

Indian weaknesses are their hubris that their enemy is weak and they don't have to put in much effort to subdue their enemy. They got the taste of their own medicine





Ali Is right. Listen to 26 feb DGISPR Press conference once again in which he said, the SOP is once a CAP is diverted to challenge enemy strike package, " More Jets fly to replace that CAP in that sector" as fighter jets cant remain in air 24/7.

Which means, once the PAF CAP was flying over Central sector as per DGISPR, so more jets were flown from the airbase to replace that CAP. Not that Some other CAP was in AIR and that CAP was scrambled to hold the fort in that empty sector. So it was obvious that it would take standard 5-10 mints for jets flying from airbase to intercept the Balakot Strike Package as the nearest PAF airbase would be Minhas airbase (JF-17) or Mushaf Airbase (F-16)


India rightly deduce that 5-10 mint window and exploited that. Also Keep in 10 KM No Fly Zone in which PAF can only warn the jets to return back to their base and can't shoot down the enemy jets as it was still PEACETIME flying



Simple is that. Number game as well as you can't have 24 Hour CAP as it wears out the jets pretty quick. To properly defend Pakistani airspace adjacent to India, we need at-least 50-100 fighter jets flying in 3 Sectors simultaneously and considering their endurance would be b/w 1-3 hours. You can do the calculations how expensive and resource heavy it is to replace the 50-100 aircrafts every 2-3 hours.


Compare that to IAF CAP on the morning of 27th FEB. Only 8 Fighter jets were patrolling the entire the Kashmir sector from Indian side along with an AEWC and PAF Strike package easily distracted and dispersed them with BVR shots and as per PAF aircheif JF-17 hold the Mirages in one Kashmir sector so that mirages and JF-17 can do the ground strike while F-16 dispersed the SU-30 with BVR shots . Just to give you an idea about the number game of CAP

India had a political win too in the back of their mind as always, besides, the narrative they take, always win on world forum, as usual they knew we'll lose at political front hence will not retaliate, they took the PM words lightly hence consequences.

 

[StormBreaker]

Not only PAF weaknesses were exposed, But IAF weaknesses were exposed on much larger scale. They knew retaliation was coming. It came in broad day light. They panicked and shot down their own helicopter. Their training and tactics failed that day. Abhinandan was disobeying Air defence controller. Indians were in a much bigger haphazard on 27 morning on how to deal with PAF Strike Package. If we go by Kaiser Tufail Account. The whole Battle took 30-40 Minutes. IAF was not able to neutralize the PAF superiority in 30-40 minutes and in the course they lost their Helicopter as well as fighter Jet. Say something about their Professionalism.

Indian weaknesses are their hubris that their enemy is weak and they don't have to put in much effort to subdue their enemy. They got the taste of their own medicine





Ali Is right. Listen to 26 feb DGISPR Press conference once again in which he said, the SOP is once a CAP is diverted to challenge enemy strike package, " More Jets fly to replace that CAP in that sector" as fighter jets cant remain in air 24/7.

Which means, once the PAF CAP was flying over Central sector as per DGISPR, so more jets were flown from the airbase to replace that CAP. Not that Some other CAP was in AIR and that CAP was scrambled to hold the fort in that empty sector. So it was obvious that it would take standard 5-10 mints for jets flying from airbase to intercept the Balakot Strike Package as the nearest PAF airbase would be Minhas airbase (JF-17) or Mushaf Airbase (F-16)


India rightly deduce that 5-10 mint window and exploited that. Also Keep in 10 KM No Fly Zone in which PAF can only warn the jets to return back to their base and can't shoot down the enemy jets as it was still PEACETIME flying



Simple is that. Number game as well as you can't have 24 Hour CAP as it wears out the jets pretty quick. To properly defend Pakistani airspace adjacent to India, we need at-least 50-100 fighter jets flying in 3 Sectors simultaneously and considering their endurance would be b/w 1-3 hours. You can do the calculations how expensive and resource heavy it is to replace the 50-100 aircrafts every 2-3 hours.


Compare that to IAF CAP on the morning of 27th FEB. Only 8 Fighter jets were patrolling the entire the Kashmir sector from Indian side along with an AEWC and PAF Strike package easily distracted and dispersed them with BVR shots and as per PAF aircheif JF-17 hold the Mirages in one Kashmir sector so that mirages and JF-17 can do the ground strike while F-16 dispersed the SU-30 with BVR shots . Just to give you an idea about the number game of CAP

Someday ago, i mentioned the same thing to signalian about 50-70 active flying jets on CAP are required at a time to properly guard the airspace.

Is this a CGI or real ?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Compare that to IAF CAP on the morning of 27th FEB. Only 8 Fighter jets were patrolling the entire the Kashmir sector from Indian side along with an AEWC and PAF Strike package easily distracted and dispersed them with BVR shots and as per PAF aircheif JF-17 hold the Mirages in one Kashmir sector so that mirages and JF-17 can do the ground strike while F-16 dispersed the SU-30 with BVR shots . Just to give you an idea about the number game of CAP

What about a good number of planes with active sam sites? Will they be enough t deter enemy from repeating this scenario again???

 

[StormBreaker]

What about a good number of planes with active sam sites? Will they be enough t deter enemy from repeating this scenario again???

Before you mention of “repeating the scenerio”, remember, IAF didn’t play any game that made them appear bad or with bad intent as @Bratva mentioned about 10KM no fly zone. They used this zone, only to run away before F-Solas come in. I am pretty optimistic that AD must have had them locked, that’s why we were fast to respond as we were aware of the situation. Had they moved in further, they would have been victims of SAMs.

 

[graphican]

Someday ago, i mentioned the same thing to signalian about 50-70 active flying jets on CAP are required at a time to properly guard the airspace.

View attachment 593375
Is this a CGI or real ?

CGI. Look at the jagged corners and render mistakes at the seam of the canopy.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Before you mention of “repeating the scenerio”, remember, IAF didn’t play any game that made them appear bad or with bad intent as @Bratva mentioned about 10KM no fly zone. They used this zone, only to run away before F-Solas come in. I am pretty optimistic that AD must have had them locked, that’s why we were fast to respond as we were aware of the situation. Had they moved in further, they would have been victims of SAMs.

I am talking about them trying to create a drama.

 

[StormBreaker]

I am talking about them trying to create a drama.

I can’t seem to understand your point, but a drama can be stopped by mere strong words just like DG ISPR very cleverly and using proper words in sentences, brought india to knees. India lost in air but the loss was greater after the Great Speech Of DG ISPR.
Iconic man, i would love to see him as DG ISPR again & again & again.

However, As for more planes and SAMs, we already have a handsome amount of fleet and possibly AD. The only thing that matters is to press the button.

 

[Bratva]

What about a good number of planes with active sam sites? Will they be enough t deter enemy from repeating this scenario again???

You can't deploy Active SAM during peacetime. Why? Because SAM can't differentiate b/w commercial and military jets as there are no IFF in Commercial airlines. Hence the reason, Pakistan closed its airspace after 27 Feb shootout and then deployed HQ-80 in Lahore as per recent images. So SAMS are out of question

Good Number of planes? In Indo-Pak Scenario, There is no Good Number. Especially in Pakistan present and future scenario. Number is the constraint that PAF will continue to face.

SOW and BVR is the name of game now a days. You can't deter India or Pakistan from repeating this scenario unless India or Pakistan make each other realize the The cost of retaliation is going to be double.

Pakistan made India realize that Pakistan can do what India can do and in much better way. Hence India deterred and never retaliated back on the following days of 27 FEB. Despite extensive CAP's flown by India all along Pakistan Border

Only way to deter is for Pakistan to induct Next-Gen Long Range SOW i.e I-REK (100 KM already deployed), Raptor-III sort of 300 KM SOW. Miniaturized Ra'ad for Conventional strikes. Induct Long RANGE BVR.

So Next time when IAF tries to repeat the scenario, Pakistan will not spare the the Battalion HQ and the lives of two Sikh LT.GEN which they spared on 27 FEB. That is the only way.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Someday ago, i mentioned the same thing to signalian about 50-70 active flying jets on CAP are required at a time to properly guard the airspace.

View attachment 593375
Is this a CGI or real ?

CGI

Someday ago, i mentioned the same thing to signalian about 50-70 active flying jets on CAP are required at a time to properly guard the airspace.

View attachment 593375
Is this a CGI or real ?

Such a big gap, PAC can easily add another hardpoint !

 

[Cool_Soldier]

yet no image of Block 3 on any forum

Moreover, no official ceremony of induction of JF 17 -B

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The whole Battle took 30-40 Minutes.

That looks a huge time

India rightly deduce that 5-10 mint window and exploited that. Also Keep in 10 KM No Fly Zone in which PAF can only warn the jets to return back to their base and can't shoot down the enemy jets as it was still PEACETIME flying

Doesnt looked peace time at that time as Pak told India it woild retaliate in case of aggression(which means Pak knew about it). Also Jets shud be send to AJK once Indian planes came close to LOC as I think jets cannot fly close to LOC