Israeli Airforce V Pakistan Airforce 1974

[PradoTLC]

 

[PradoTLC]

TCM did a interview before but this one is more comprehensive..

Some highlights

> the first dogfight happened after many months of hot scrambles and entanglements. It gave time to assess both airforces tactics , response time etc

> IAF mirage pilot and his wing man made mistakes. first the Mirage pilot engaged Mig-21 at lower altitudes. In general the mirage is superior at higher altitude and Mig-21 at lower.

> The Israeli wingman made an error of not engaging Alvi. Alvi. was engaged at the last leg of his CAP and he should have known Mig-21 has low fuel level and should have engaged him instead of fleeing as Alvi could not have engaged the Mirage as his fuel was on Bingo status.

> This is the part Alvi didn't understand about the engagement. Israeli knew there were PAF as their listening station intercepted radio communication between the PAF pilot. PAF personnel either spoke English or punjabi/urdu. The manoeuvre i.e. bait the Israeli and his wingman were attempted would probably worked against a more novice opponent but not against against highly trained PAF pilots. PAF also operated mirages with war time experience in 1971, and were fully aware of its capabilities.


Despite this dogfight Alvi has high regards for the IAF.

His analysis of the Israeli airforce

> they only engage if they have the most favourable of circumstances. (not to suggest they were cowards but preservation life was high on the Jewish agenda, probably post holocaust effect)

> highly professional, very dedicated and strong knowledge of thier equipment and tactics.

Syrians

> Very brave and go getters, but there was no one to guide them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

Please delete this thread---. This topic has been beaten to death a thousand times---.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

IAF mirage pilot and his wing man made mistakes.

Side history:

This was a common tactic by the IAF. They ambushed numerus Arab AirForce jets in skirmishes by positioning X planes to be picked up by radar while another contingent of IAF fighters would wait below radar scans waiting for ambushes.

There's a famous air battle between Soviet and IAF pilots where the Soviets flew into combat thinking they'd teach the Egyptians how the MiGs were really to be flown.

Operation Rimon 20 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PradoTLC]

Sir,

Please delete this thread---. This topic has been beaten to death a thousand times---.

yes but there are elements that was disclosed particularly Israeli airforce assessment

Side history:

This was a common tactic by the IAF. They ambushed numerus Arab AirForce jets in skirmishes by positioning X planes to be picked up by radar while another contingent of IAF fighters would wait below radar scans waiting for ambushes.

There's a famous air battle between Soviet and IAF pilots where the Soviets flew into combat thinking they'd teach the Egyptians how the MiGs were really to be flown.

Operation Rimon 20 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

yup... but the soviets go their arses handed to them. The Israeli pilots were combat experienced, and history has shown the pilots with most experience always have the edge.

BTW the PAF used similar against the Indians... deception tactics is constantly used by PAF. We all saw that in 2019

 

[Reichmarshal]

Russian ac,, tactics, training n strategy has been crap since ww2 where the German tuftwaffe kicked a$s n since then they have not been able really achieved any thing substantial in ant areal theater any where. N have limped from defeat to defeat.... Same goes for any one of the AF they have trained.

Their strategy of quantity vs quality to overwhelm the enemy as been beaten the crap out of but they the russians still refuse to let go off as can be seen in their latest venture.

 

[Tornado23]

Russian ac,, tactics, training n strategy has been crap since ww2 where the German tuftwaffe kicked a$s n since then they have not been able really achieved any thing substantial in ant areal theater any where. N have limped from defeat to defeat.... Same goes for any one of the AF they have trained.

Their strategy of quantity vs quality to overwhelm the enemy as been beaten the crap out of but they the russians still refuse to let go off as can be seen in their latest venture.

The soviet airforce had the highest the number of aces during ww2. They had some 3000+ aces whereas the Germans came second with 2300+

 

[Reichmarshal]

The soviet airforce had the highest the number of aces during ww2. They had some 3000+ aces whereas the Germans came second with 2300+

By all accounts most russian claims were bs fantom claims, more for propaganda purpose and nothing to do with reality.
Just to give u one example on the eastern front for the whole 1941, the russians claims to have destroyed more then 7000 german ac both on the ground n in the air. But in actual reality the totall lufftwaffe loses on the eastern front for 41 were around 3000 ac lost.

N this trend of overestimating continued throughout ww2 n continues to the present. So u can cut the number of rusian aces n claimed victories by 100% across the board.

 

[Gripen9]

Shahbaz over the Golan... A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail

Shahbaz Over Golan

Post-haste summons for volunteers found an eager band of sixteen PAF fighter pilots on their way to the Middle East, in the midst of the 1...

kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com

 

[MastanKhan]

1. yes but there are elements that was disclosed particularly Israeli airforce assessment



2. yup... but the soviets go their arses handed to them. The Israeli pilots were combat experienced, and history has shown the pilots with most experience always have the edge.

BTW the PAF used similar against the Indians... deception tactics is constantly used by PAF. We all saw that in 2019

Hi,

1. It is like beating a DEAD HORSE---.

2. Israeli pilots had superior equipment to the russian pilots---. Superior equipment trumps inferior equipment---.

 

[Tornado23]

By all accounts most russian claims were bs fantom claims, more for propaganda purpose and nothing to do with reality.
Just to give u one example on the eastern front for the whole 1941, the russians claims to have destroyed more then 7000 german ac both on the ground n in the air. But in actual reality the totall lufftwaffe loses on the eastern front for 41 were around 3000 ac lost.

N this trend of overestimating continued throughout ww2 n continues to the present. So u can cut the number of rusian aces n claimed victories by 100% across the board.

so we are supposed to the take the Germans claim as the absolute truth?

Fact is, it was the luftwaffe that went into disarray and was eventually destroyed by the Soviets and allied Air forces. Mostly the Soviets as that's where most of the luftwaffes fighting forces were

 

[PradoTLC]

Hi,

1. It is like beating a DEAD HORSE---.

2. Israeli pilots had superior equipment to the russian pilots---. Superior equipment trumps inferior equipment---.

Y can just ignore this thread then.

The soviet airforce had the highest the number of aces during ww2.

While Soviet’s did have aces they still lagged quality pilot due to their inferior pilot training. Many German pilots made this point such as the fact they were not profient in deflection shooting for example

 

[PradoTLC]

This kind of thinking is developed when you drive a YUGO.

you don't need to share what kind of car you drive.

 

[Ghessan]

TCM did a interview before but this one is more comprehensive..

Some highlights

> the first dogfight happened after many months of hot scrambles and entanglements. It gave time to assess both airforces tactics , response time etc

> IAF mirage pilot and his wing man made mistakes. first the Mirage pilot engaged Mig-21 at lower altitudes. In general the mirage is superior at higher altitude and Mig-21 at lower.

> The Israeli wingman made an error of not engaging Alvi. Alvi. was engaged at the last leg of his CAP and he should have known Mig-21 has low fuel level and should have engaged him instead of fleeing as Alvi could not have engaged the Mirage as his fuel was on Bingo status.

> This is the part Alvi didn't understand about the engagement. Israeli knew there were PAF as their listening station intercepted radio communication between the PAF pilot. PAF personnel either spoke English or punjabi/urdu. The manoeuvre i.e. bait the Israeli and his wingman were attempted would probably worked against a more novice opponent but not against against highly trained PAF pilots. PAF also operated mirages with war time experience in 1971, and were fully aware of its capabilities.


Despite this dogfight Alvi has high regards for the IAF.

His analysis of the Israeli airforce

> they only engage if they have the most favourable of circumstances. (not to suggest they were cowards but preservation life was high on the Jewish agenda, probably post holocaust effect)

> highly professional, very dedicated and strong knowledge of thier equipment and tactics.

Syrians

> Very brave and go getters, but there was no one to guide them.

he quoted 27 Feb somewhere in his conversation.

i would like to link his words in the end to the young pilots being go getters which was missing.

 

[Reichmarshal]

so we are supposed to the take the Germans claim as the absolute truth?

Fact is, it was the luftwaffe that went into disarray and was eventually destroyed by the Soviets and allied Air forces. Mostly the Soviets as that's where most of the luftwaffes fighting forces were

History is always written by the victor n in this case the allies....all that I have stated above comes from u.s n British sources n very few from german sources......n the one thing about the Russian claims that is very consistent with em all is that the russians over estimated their victory claims on all fronts.

The whole world had united against the Germans n their could have been no other option but defeat.