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Israel Cannot be an Apartheid State

What right does Britain have to give Palestine to the Israelis?
You are just derailing and doing a very poor job of arguing your points.
Note that your argument is NOT with the Zionists any more. That's why I didn't put a high priority on responding to you.

Why are the Palestinians being forced against their will to accept people who are not native to the land -
Are you man enough to re-examine the bases of these questions?
 
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Are you man enough to re-examine the bases of these questions?

Stop beating around the bush and spit out what you are trying to say. I am not here to play games, either shut it or stop being so cryptic.
 
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Stop beating around the bush and spit out what you are trying to say. I am not here to play games, either shut it or stop being so cryptic.
What I am saying is that at this point you should be doing your own research. I also suggested a relevant direction for you to investigate.
 
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What I am saying is that at this point you should be doing your own research. I also suggested a relevant direction for you to investigate.

Been there done that, has not changed my mind.

I am asking YOU to try and change it.
 
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And the evidence you discovered is...?
I am asking YOU to try and change it.
Change what, exactly?[/QUOTE]

The evidence I discovered did not support your case at all.

I already told you, I tried and it didn't work. I'm asking you to see if you can do any better, but clearly you can't, which only further fuels my narrative.
 
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The evidence I discovered did not support your case at all...
You already accepted "my case":
That justifies the existence of Jews in the region -

Upon which I suggested you dyor (Do-Your-Own-Research) for the second part:
- but how does it justify taking the Palestinians land and forming your own state there, at the Palestinians expense?
I'm suggesting dyor because the presumptions behind the question doesn't facts (indeed it's already been partially answered earlier in the thread), the information is out there if you want to dig for it, and if you find them yourself it will be more rewarding for you: you won't have to believe in anything I bring to the table.

Reminds me of Abdulrahman Al-Rashed's column a few days ago:
alrashed-31072017-100.png


"...a conference that aimed to prove that the Earth is not round was held in the UK last month. There was also a similar conference held last year that was attended by some who claimed to be scientists, while others based their conclusions on religion. The claims were all contrary to everything that scientists have proved following a long, historical conflict...Those who cited the conference, considering it to be a reliable reference, are like others who have frequently cited conspiracy theories to demonstrate that that man never landed on the Moon; that US space agency NASA is just a propaganda tool...

...we have not established a scientific project concerned with the development and teaching of intensive science, but instead focused on securing easy entertainment.

"Skeptics and rejecters of scientific progress exist, and will continue to be part of our lives, but they are not an obstacle today as they were until recently, when they were fighting the teaching of science because they feared the effects of science on religion and faith. The real challenge is to spread and develop science and move to being a society that relies on it.

"We need to revisit the old curriculum, the concept of education and its role in society..."

In Pakistan the demand is that education serve "Pakistan ideology": only evidence and arguments which do so are permitted to be taught: link. When Pakistani students go on the internet they are expected to only produce "evidence" that backs up the State, no matter how un-scientific it may be. Contradictory evidence is ignored, denied, or cited as part of an anti-Pakistani conspiracy. Pakistani students are expected to graduate with the flat-earther mindset that Al-Rashed believes is holding Arab countries from developing.

Can you go beyond that? Don't just tell us what you've done, show us what evidence you have uncovered to bring to the table to be critiqued scientifically.
 
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Note that Israel doesn't have nearly the number of religious laws on its books as Muslim countries do, and even if they were removed Israel would remain the Jewish State. That's because one is a Jew based on descent or conversion-adoption, not the degree of religious practice. ("The Jews are a people and Judaism is their religion" is the correct formulation.)

Is Israel for jews only , not the larger "Bani-Israel" (children of Ya'koob)?

Are they not Bani-Israel by descent, irrespective of the belief they might have adopted now (degree of religious practice doesn't count , as you said).

Was Jesus & his disciples not Bani-Israel by descent, for example? or the lost-tribes who migrated to East. If they show up now and claim Israel is theirs. Would you let them in?

@El Sidd

You didn't answer the question put to you.
Hope you will answer my question above


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Originally Israel belonged to lost-tribes, not the Judah..

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ten-Lost-Tribes-of-Israel

"...10 [lost] tribes formed the independent Kingdom of Israel in the north and the 2 other tribes, Judah and Benjamin, set up the Kingdom of Judah in the south
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descendants of the lost tribes include the Nestorians, the Mormons, the Afghans, the Falashas of Ethiopia, the American Indians, and the Japanese.
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descendants of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin have survived as Jews ...
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Is Israel for jews only , not the larger "Bani-Israel" (children of Ya'koob)?
Israel is 20%+ non-Jews: mostly descendants of non-Jews who chose not to flee into the arms of Jews' enemies after '48 or '67 or to the distant UNRWA welfare camps, relatives of Jews, converts from Judaism, and descendants of anti-Zionist Arabs from UNRWA camps on Israeli territory ("internal refugees") that were dismantled back in the 1950s.

Are they not Bani-Israel by descent, irrespective of the belief they might have adopted now (degree of religious practice doesn't count , as you said).
Non-Jews, to be accepted as immigrants under the law of return? They or a near relative have to have a direct affiliation with the Jewish people and probably an Israeli relative. And I don't think professed converts count, though a Muslim who is a child of a Muslim father and Jewish mother might. You can look up Israel's Law of Return and the question of Who is a Jew? for enlightenment - there have been some changes over the decades.
 
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Israel is 20%+ non-Jews: mostly descendants of non-Jews who chose not to flee into the arms of Jews' enemies after '48 or '67 or to the distant UNRWA welfare camps, relatives of Jews, converts from Judaism, and descendants of anti-Zionist Arabs from UNRWA camps on Israeli territory ("internal refugees") that were dismantled back in the 1950s.

Non-Jews, to be accepted as immigrants under the law of return? They or a near relative have to have a direct affiliation with the Jewish people. And I don't think professed converts count, though a Muslim who is a child of a Muslim father and Jewish mother might. You can look up Israel's Law of Return and the question of Who is a Jew? for enlightenment - there have been some changes over the decades.
if I understood correctly, you are saying only "jews", and not the larger "Bani-Israel" have right over The Land? even though they are descendents of Jacob!
 
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Don't just tell us what you've done, show us what evidence you have uncovered to bring to the table to be critiqued scientifically.

You are shifting the burden of proof, nice try but it won't work.

The fact is you are incapable of supporting such a clearly illogical agenda.
 
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The fact is you are incapable of supporting such a clearly illogical agenda.
logo-psychology-today.png


...To understand Flat Earthers, and other people who hold unconventional beliefs, we need to first consider what it means to “believe.” A belief is a cognitive representation of the nature of reality, encompassing our inner experiences, the world around us, and the world beyond. In 1965, Oxford philosophy professor H.H. Price distinguished between “believing in” and “believing that.”1 As summarized by John Byrne, author of the website Skeptical Medicine(link is external), “believing that” something is true is a relatively straightforward matter of looking at the evidence. “Seeing is believing” is one kind of “believing that.” In contrast, we “believe in” something when there’s no evidence and the belief isn’t falsifiable. Religious faith is a kind of “believing in.” Both types of believing are normal cognitive capacities, but can run amok when conflated, resulting in beliefs that are poor models of reality.

Just so, Flat Earthers often talk about planetary geometry in terms of “belief in” rather than “belief that,” as if the evidence for a spherical Earth is lacking. But that claim isn’t really so much about believing. It's denialism.

When Kyrie Irving was challenged about his flat earth beliefs, he replied(link is external):

“Is the world flat or round? — I think you need to do research on it. It’s right in front of our faces. I’m telling you it’s right in front of our faces. They lie to us… Everything that was put in front of me, I had to be like, ‘Oh, this is all a facade.’ Like, this is all something that they ultimately want me to believe in… Question things, but even if an answer doesn’t come back, you’re perfectly fine with that, because you were never living in that particular truth. There’s a falseness in stories and things that people want you to believe and ultimately what they throw in front of us.”

With those words, Irving seems to be defending a denialist position that has the potential to give way to a slippery slope of rejecting all facts. According to that extreme version of denialism, nothing can be trusted, not even scientific evidence. Or maybe, as the physician and writer Atul Gawande wrote last year(link is external), it’s not so much about mistrust of science, as it is about mistrusting scientists...

...This account suggests Flat Earthers often see themselves as approaching questions about reality like scientists do, from a philosophical perspective of skepticism. But while superficially related,
scientific skepticism and denialism aren’t the same thing at all(link is external).2 The former teaches that evidence is worthy of belief when an observation is repeated under properly controlled conditions, while the latter teaches that evidence, no matter how reproducible, can always be rejected out of hand as a matter of principle (for more on the distinction, check out Michael Shermer's Living in Denial: When a Sceptic Isn't a Sceptic(link is external) and Steven Novella's Skepticism and Denial(link is external)).

When B.o.B.(link is external) and Tila Tequila(link is external) defended their flat earth beliefs, both fell back on the claim that the Earth can’t be round because it appears flat on the horizon. While this position could be dismissed as mere ignorance grounded in the natural but error-prone tendency of the brain to treat perception as reality, the simultaneous rejection of the mountain of objective evidence to the contrary may further reflect a modern democratization of opinion, with personal belief placed on a equal footing with expertise(link is external). That kind of narcissism emboldened B.o.B. to feel qualified to debate physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson(link is external) and for many others seems to be an increasingly adopted epistemology in today's “post-truth” world...

...In terms of psychological and social health, we would all do well to be more flexible with our personal belief convictions, keeping an open mind to the possibility that we might be wrong. But at the same time, we would also do well to “believe in” the process of “believing that.” According to that advice, denialism holds us back, tethering us to false beliefs that are inconsistent with the facts and worthy of ridicule.
 
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logo-psychology-today.png


...To understand Flat Earthers, and other people who hold unconventional beliefs, we need to first consider what it means to “believe.” A belief is a cognitive representation of the nature of reality, encompassing our inner experiences, the world around us, and the world beyond. In 1965, Oxford philosophy professor H.H. Price distinguished between “believing in” and “believing that.”1 As summarized by John Byrne, author of the website Skeptical Medicine(link is external), “believing that” something is true is a relatively straightforward matter of looking at the evidence. “Seeing is believing” is one kind of “believing that.” In contrast, we “believe in” something when there’s no evidence and the belief isn’t falsifiable. Religious faith is a kind of “believing in.” Both types of believing are normal cognitive capacities, but can run amok when conflated, resulting in beliefs that are poor models of reality.

Just so, Flat Earthers often talk about planetary geometry in terms of “belief in” rather than “belief that,” as if the evidence for a spherical Earth is lacking. But that claim isn’t really so much about believing. It's denialism.

When Kyrie Irving was challenged about his flat earth beliefs, he replied(link is external):

“Is the world flat or round? — I think you need to do research on it. It’s right in front of our faces. I’m telling you it’s right in front of our faces. They lie to us… Everything that was put in front of me, I had to be like, ‘Oh, this is all a facade.’ Like, this is all something that they ultimately want me to believe in… Question things, but even if an answer doesn’t come back, you’re perfectly fine with that, because you were never living in that particular truth. There’s a falseness in stories and things that people want you to believe and ultimately what they throw in front of us.”

With those words, Irving seems to be defending a denialist position that has the potential to give way to a slippery slope of rejecting all facts. According to that extreme version of denialism, nothing can be trusted, not even scientific evidence. Or maybe, as the physician and writer Atul Gawande wrote last year(link is external), it’s not so much about mistrust of science, as it is about mistrusting scientists...

...This account suggests Flat Earthers often see themselves as approaching questions about reality like scientists do, from a philosophical perspective of skepticism. But while superficially related,
scientific skepticism and denialism aren’t the same thing at all(link is external).2 The former teaches that evidence is worthy of belief when an observation is repeated under properly controlled conditions, while the latter teaches that evidence, no matter how reproducible, can always be rejected out of hand as a matter of principle (for more on the distinction, check out Michael Shermer's Living in Denial: When a Sceptic Isn't a Sceptic(link is external) and Steven Novella's Skepticism and Denial(link is external)).

When B.o.B.(link is external) and Tila Tequila(link is external) defended their flat earth beliefs, both fell back on the claim that the Earth can’t be round because it appears flat on the horizon. While this position could be dismissed as mere ignorance grounded in the natural but error-prone tendency of the brain to treat perception as reality, the simultaneous rejection of the mountain of objective evidence to the contrary may further reflect a modern democratization of opinion, with personal belief placed on a equal footing with expertise(link is external). That kind of narcissism emboldened B.o.B. to feel qualified to debate physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson(link is external) and for many others seems to be an increasingly adopted epistemology in today's “post-truth” world...

...In terms of psychological and social health, we would all do well to be more flexible with our personal belief convictions, keeping an open mind to the possibility that we might be wrong. But at the same time, we would also do well to “believe in” the process of “believing that.” According to that advice, denialism holds us back, tethering us to false beliefs that are inconsistent with the facts and worthy of ridicule.

That's not relevant to the topic at all, you are just trying to make my position look bad without tackling the actual subject at hand.
 
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