Islamic culturalization of India since 1947.

[Indus Pakistan]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

India is a very diverse place. We may be skewing our understanding of 'India' to Bollywood and its north or north-western urban centres. But places like Kerala, Assam, etc are very different worlds. In fact, as you go east, you'll find fewer people speak Hindi / Hindustani as their primary tongue compared to a regional language.

In fact, I'd argue that even the Muslims of Kerala and other similar areas are (culturally) less Mughal-inspired (like those in Pakistan and NW-India), and more of their own type (culturally speaking).

In a bizarre twist of fate, Pakistan may be more homogenous than India.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Fascinating theory - probably pretty close to the mark actually. It's not something that should be denied by the way. Indian muslims and Pakistanis have no reason to be ashamed of this. Clearly, the hindutva philosophy also subscribes to this and indeed baulks at it, resulting in its sustained assault on this proposed Islamic influence.

The initial error in their thinking is of course that "Islam is not native while vedic Hinduism is native". This leads to the second error in their thinking, which is that of the two, only Vedic Hinduism is justified as a dominant faith in India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

India is a very diverse place. We may be skewing our understanding of 'India' to Bollywood and its north or north-western urban centres. But places like Kerala, Assam, etc are very different worlds. In fact, as you go east, you'll find fewer people speak Hindi / Hindustani as their primary tongue compared to a regional language.

In fact, I'd argue that even the Muslims of Kerala and other similar areas are (culturally) less Mughal-inspired (like those in Pakistan and NW-India), and more of their own type (culturally speaking).

In a bizarre twist of fate, Pakistan may be more homogenous than India.

Of course it is more diverse but it is slowly being homogenized and those vast regions of India have now shifted in the way described in my infographic. Kerala, Assam, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal or even Delhi look more "Pakistani" then they did 40 years ago. Today majority of women from reports I have seen wear shalwar kameez and often have a scarf draped around their shoulders. The ubiquitous Indian Sari is now a rare sight even in south or east India.

And Pakistan was always more homogenous given our compact [relatively] geography and long, shared history.

@masterchief_mirza Whilst this process of Islamic culturalization is taking place the strange thing is there has been rise of Hindudtwas who claim to be out to clean India of the foreign Islamic culture and influence.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The modern Indian will have his females wearing the shalwar kameez probably with a scarf in respect of modesty which will probably have Islamic inspired designs [no elephants or shivas] but complex floral/geometric patterns.

Talk about how Hindu soldiers have been shaheed while listening to Sufi music and eating kebabs. Finishng of with some meat karai and then relax to Nusrat Fateh Khan;s qawwali. Then claim "wah wah" Indian culture.

 

[Varunastra]

Of course it is more diverse but it is slowly being homogenized and those vast regions of India have now shifted in the way described in my infographic. Kerala, Assam, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal or even Delhi look more "Pakistani" then they did 40 years ago. Today majority of women from reports I have seen wear shalwar kameez and often have a scarf draped around their shoulders. The ubiquitous Indian Sari is now a rare sight even in south or east India.

And Pakistan was always more homogenous given our compact [relatively] geography and long, shared history.

@masterchief_mirza Whilst this process of Islamic culturalization is taking place the strange thing is there has been rise of Hindudtwas who claim to be out to clean India of the foreign Islamic culture and influence.

Want to point out the average Indian doesn't take Salwar kameez/kurtas to be a Pakistani/Islamic thing though, it's just another part of our cultural dressing. Indian point of view has become more and more accepting of different cultures especially in dressing where it's not seen as something foreign. Kurta pyjama, salwar kameez, lehengas, sarees, etc are all seen as our own which any Indian can wear without hesitation irrespective of where he /she is from or their faith.
Also the preference in modern times can be seen as to what is easier/quicker to wear while looking good, so kurtis salwars and all you'll see women wearing in a more casual setting while sarees/lehengas in more special occasions like weddings, formal parties, etc.

 

[Vapnope]

I think the culturalization started when Mughals ruled India. The Islamic traditions and way of life became culturally acceptable and historically newer traditions have been accepted in India. Moreover, muslims have adopted some of the cultural aspects of subcontinent.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Salwar kameez/kurtas to be a Pakistani/Islamic thing though, it's just another part of our cultural dressing

I know that. I walk around in a trousers and suit. But I know it is western dress that I have adapted. It is cultural appropriation. I could easily call the modern suit a Muslim dress or see it as part of our culture. But you just described what I said. This is process of cultural appropriation drawing from Islamic historical experiance.

But my point is your society has done as appropriation on a huge scale. Don't believe me look at India of 1960s and you will see the sari was dominant all except on the borders regions next to Pakistan.

Yet after this process that I described as Islamic culturalization - wherein you adopt accoutrements of that culture as your own you then go around with this Hindutwa thing. You can't have it both ways.

I think the culturalization started when Mughals ruled India.

That remained restricted to a tiny minority elite. Why not take the time to look at India of 1960s or even 1970s? The process I am describing which has changed the face of India began after 1980 and by 2000s was reaching consolidation phase. Incidentally Bangladeshi's have also gone through this process.

 

[Varunastra]

I know that. I walk around in a trousers and suit. But I know it is western dress that I have adapted. It is cultural appropriation. I could easily call the modern suit a Muslim dress or see it as part of our culture. But you just described what I said. This is process of cultural appropriation drawing from Islamic historical experiance.

But my point is your society has done as appropriation on a huge scale. Don't believe me look at India of 1960s and you will see the sari was dominant all except on the borders regions next to Pakistan.

Yet after this process that I described as Islamic culturalization - wherein you adopt accoutrements of that culture as your own you then go around with this Hindutwa thing. You can't have it both ways.

I get your point and do accept that such a merger of cultures has happened, we have taken few aspects while being critical to others, but I don't think any culture in history has done that, adopt a foreign culture entirely without having local elements and discarding something else. Even islamic Pakistani culture will have lots of local elements while removing many arabic/middle eastern /central asian ones.
Well I'm a believer that our Islamic history(if we decide to call it as such) is our own, it's Indian and our to use and spread any way we like. Yes it's origins might be in central asia, etc but none thinks of it now in those lens, it's been so much integrated into our society that's it's now south asian and most people will think it so, hence you won't find a large scale acknowledgement of any foreign origin.
I would also add that people declaring holy war against what's now basically Indian culture for political brownie points is laughable.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

If that is really the case, it makes no sense that it would have happened post independence, when the Urdu elite of the Hindi belt migrated

 

[Varunastra]

If that is really the case, it makes no sense that it would have happened post independence, when the Urdu elite of the Hindi belt migrated

I would think bollywood/media and our modern economy has played a big part on why India is getting culturally homogenous incorporating mentioned elements . Bollywood has focused on North India where the mentioned dresses are more prevalent historically even before independence. Especially for women whatever is being worn by your favorite celebrities would be adopted and business work to make sure those are available asap where there is demand.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This old lady is how vast majority of Indian women dressed until the last 30 years before their clothing went through Islamic culturalization. Sari, large part of the body exposed. Very Hindu and similar to the statues you get on traditional Hindu temples.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

biriyani, kebab, mughal architecture, urdu poetry and whathavyou... of course these are all part of Indian culture and embraced by the overwhelming majority.

As I have said this process has picked up pace over the lasdt decades. However why do Hindutwas cry on about "Muslims" when India has culturalized Islam?

separatism, terrorism, non-assimilation into the mainstream... stuff like this is frowned upon by the rest.

Non of these are contingent on Islam. I am sure you heard of Sikh terorists, Naga terrorists etc And non-assimilation? They are Indian converts.

 

[Sabretooth]

I begin by defining what I mean by Islamic culturalization. Any religion has an effect on the culture of it's followers and in some cases can even influence those who are not followers but get impacted by it. In this thread I put forward a hypothesis that India since 1947 and particularly in the last 40 years has gone through a profound Islamic culturalization and in doing so has moved more toward what is Pakistan. In doing so the diufferance has reduced because for lack of better term India has aped Pakistan. The infographic below presents my hypothesis.

View attachment 738011


Notice it is India that has shifted toward Pakistan. Simple examples of Islamic culturalization are use of terms like "shaheed". We all know this is specifically a Islamic concept with Arabic root and nothing remotely Hindu about it. Other examples are the dress code. A shalwar Kameez and a scarf whether on the head or draped around the neck is specifically informed by Islamic concepts of modesty. A concept wholly missing in Hinduism as witnessed by semi-naked ladies seen on temples. The Sari is a dress evolved from Hindu culture.

Other examples are Indian clamouring for Sufi music which again is product of Islamic syncretism in the region. We can move on to cuisine where kebabs are cited by Indians which again came into the region on backs of Islamic conquest. It even goes on to art or architechure. We all know Islam disapproves the use of pictorial forms of living things as opposed to Hinduism which celebrates it. The result is the geometric or floral decoration that thrived in the Islamic cultures. Today you will see hip Indian ladies wearing tops which are decorated with this geometric/floral patterns which are touted as "authentic Indian". I can go on but I think you get my point. What appears bizzare is while India indulges in Islamic culturalization at the same time Hindutwas scream about the toxic world of Islam and how it's influence is foreign to India or that it needs to be erased from their country.

Just to clarify a small portion of India - mostly on the borders of Pakistan like Indian Punjab exhibited influences from the Islam world which I have shown in my infographic in the small portion of convergence. However as you moved east and deep into south of India this influence reduced drastically. Cities like Madras or Chennai or Madurai had almost no convergence with say Lahore or Peshawar.

This thread was prompted by daily reports I have been watching on news of the covid surge in India. What struck me is how cities even in south of India looked familiar to me. Clothing was almost same as say in Lahore. Ladies walked around with shalwar Kameez and most had scarfs draped in the style that is informed by Islamic modesty.

India as a country came to my attention back in 1970s and stereotypes I drew were based on TV travel shows or news reports or books. That India contrasted sharply with Pakistan I knew. Like I said there always was some commonality but from 5% it seems to have gone to 85%. This means vast numbers of Indians gave up on accoutrements of their native Hindu culture and adopted what in fact was examples of Islamic culturalization. Going from a exposed belly wearing a Sari to a shalwar kameez with scarf draped around the head or shoulders is a great example. Of course this is just one manifestatio but there is so much more tangible and intangible examples of Islamic culturalization.

I belive Bollywood has been a major force behind this change. From music, food, social habits, concepts of honour and sacrifice etc have been fully plundered by Bollywood to create a gold painted myth. This even goes to open plagiarization of songs from Islamic cultural matrix like singing Allama Iqbals dua to which is entirely inspired by Islam to copies of popular Pakistani songs.

I encourage Pakistani members to look at the phenomenon I have described and post examples here. I strongly suggest members look at India of 1970s and you will see the change.

On point.

In fact I was of the WRONG OPINION (as are many Pakistanis these day I am sure) that most of our wedding traditions (albeit Un-Islamic) were influenced by Indian culture due to close proximity but LITTLE DID I KNEW that most of those traditions such as rasm-e-hina, salami, baraat, groom on horse, doodh pilai, placing infant in Bride's lap, hiding groom's Shoes etc. all were brought from Bukhara and Samarqand by Muslim rulers (present day Uzbekistan).
We all know Hindu wedding is mostly 7 circles around fire.

 

[Varunastra]

On point.

In fact I was of the WRONG OPINION (as are many Pakistanis these day I am sure) that most of our wedding traditions (albeit Un-Islamic) were influenced by Indian culture due to close proximity but LITTLE DID I KNEW that most of those traditions such as rasm-e-hina, salami, baraat, groom on horse, doodh pilai, placing infant in Bride's lap, hiding groom's Shoes etc. all were brought from Bukhara and Samarqand by Muslim rulers (present day Uzbekistan).
We all know Hindu wedding is mostly 7 circles around fire.

Show me central asian wedding examples that looks like south asian ones, then your theory will be true