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Is this the real issue between India and Pakistan?

Sky lord

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FORGET the loons and the kooks, the puff-chested braggarts and the incorrigible denialists, and ask yourself this: what is the Pak-India relationship really about?

At its core, as defined in the present era, stripped of hype and hyperbole, denuded of posturing and silliness, what is it that Pakistan and India need of each other in strategic terms?

Not trade, not normalisation, none of the aspirational stuff — what can the two of them simply not ignore about the other?

For India, it’s pretty straightforward: avoid another Mumbai. That means, can’t ignore the anti-India lot, LeT and the like, sloshing around in Pakistan.

Combined, the Pakistani and Indian responses make for some fireworks and a great deal of noise. But it does little to change the contradiction at the heart of the relationship.
From an Indian perspective, anti-India militancy in Pakistan has to be the baseline — no state, government or security establishment can possibly ignore it. Nor should they. Nor will they.

For Pakistan, you have to probe a little more, but it comes into view all right. It’s not Kashmir, at least not Kashmir in the conventional sense described here.

The K-boat sailed a long time ago and nothing more will be wrested, at the negotiating table or on the battlefield, than roughly the four-point solution of the Mush era.

So, unfinished business or not, what we’re lectured about or not, Kashmir is hardly a strategic core, whose presence or absence directly determines the very course of the country.

At most Kashmir is an institutional core — allowing the boys to justify their exalted status and internal predominance.

So, what then? It’s the Indian war machine, specifically, its conventional capabilities. It’s the only thing that’s unsustainable — the threat of a chasm between the conventional capabilities of the two countries.

The Kashmir dispute we can sustain, water we can probably keep squabbling over, no-trade status we can continue, people-to-people contact we can ignore, but there’s an inherent divergence in the conventional capabilities of us and them that folk here gloss over with a little lie.

That lie is this: the wider the conventional gap grows — as India plays catch-up with and overtakes Pakistan in various aspects of the military realm — all that will happen is that Pakistan will lower the nuclear threshold and hence Pakistan will still be able to protect itself. Neat and deadly.

But follow that logic a bit. We already have an example: from the Indian parliament attack to Operation Parakram to the quasi-mooting of Cold Start to Pakistan developing smaller missiles that can carry miniaturised nuclear warheads, the whole spiral has already played out.

Great. We feel safe. Here’s the problem though: tactical nuclear missiles only respond to the threat of a rapid and limited ground invasion by the Indians. There are a whole bunch of other options.

A sea blockade by the Indian navy or air strikes by the Indian air force, for example. Or, if we want to get really fancy, imagine a multi-day episode like Mumbai that triggers an OBL-style Indian raid on Muridke before the militant attack is snuffed out in India.

Much of that is fantasy, either because India can only dream of such capabilities or because it’s insanely expensive to assemble. But, given its economic trajectory, given the money it can set aside for its military, given its external relationships and given the highly skilled pockets of labour available to it, India can afford to at least take a partial stab at fantasy.

Then what? To every new conventional capability India threatens or acquires, Pakistan can’t simply lower the nuclear threshold further. That would be absurd and unworkable for a bunch of reasons, not least because it would mean us sitting on a hair-trigger that would give the world jitters.

So, in every realistic scenario, Pakistan cannot let the conventional parity with India grow too out of whack. And in every realistic scenario, Pakistan simply doesn’t have the resources to compete conventionally — if India decides to hit the accelerator.

Either it would bankrupt us à la the Soviets and the Cold War or it would drive us to do something desperate before the point of no return is reached.

That, then, is the core of the Pak-India relationship: the intolerable threat of militancy for India and the unsustainable proposition of a conventional arms race for Pakistan.

And that also explains why the relationship is again near insoluble — the fear of one feeds the fear of the other.

Why should Pakistan give up on the proxy threat when it can’t compete in the long term in the conventional realm and militancy is the one thing India doesn’t have an answer to?

And why would India give up the option of pulling away conventionally if it’s the one thing that could make Pakistan consider giving up its proxies for good?

The worst thing about the Pak-India relationship is not that it doesn’t make sense, but that, when you look at it closely, the damn thing makes a kind of perverse sense.

Which brings us to the present. Pakistan’s hedge against a possible arms race with India has been to stabilise ties with the US: chummy up to the Americans and keep the weapons flowing while there’s a hawk in Delhi. It’s no accident that ties with the US are at their most stable in years.

India’s response to the continuing militancy threat has been to change tack from Manmohan Singh’s tentative diplomacy to Modi flirting with the proxy threat against Pakistan.

Combined, the Pakistani and Indian responses make for some fireworks and a great deal of noise. But it does little to change the contradiction at the heart of the relationship.

An intolerable threat for the Indian side and an unsustainable proposition for the Pakistani side is a riddle no one appears to have the answer to.

India, Pakistan, again - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
 
Nothing much change till Modi sarkar in charge, we fighting now the monster we created aka extremism, Modi busy now other side promoting extremism and hate like a drunk giant elephant scaring around, we doing our part to fight against terrorism, Nawaz went to India with good gesture on Taj poshi of Modi, we call for dialogues regarding Kashmir and other issues but India took it as our weakness, it's time for India to fight against it's terrorist state leaders aka Modi and Group.
 
Nawaz went to India with good gesture on Taj poshi of Modi, we call for dialogues regarding Kashmir and other issues but India took it as our weakness, it's time for India to fight against it's terrorist state leaders aka Modi and Group.

Problem with Indians is they are always looking for weaknesses when they should be looking for mutual understanding and win-win scenarios.

Pakistan has made enough peace overtures and India has responded back by a campaign of absolutely obnoxious vitriol.

Keeping part of Kashmir has not been good for India's mental health. They would have been better off letting it go for the greater good of the region and their own sanity. Seeing Pakistani flags being waved in Indian territory every month surely is not good for their state of mind and herewith lies the root of the problem.
 
The mor0ns in Dawn at it again!

Laanat on this media group really. I hope one day a serious govt sits in power and cleans up the media in Pakistan, which is mostly running on foreign NGO aid.

Of course the biggest issue for Pakistan is Indian sponsored terrorism to keep Pakistan destablized and to fulfill this "Akhanad Baharat" wet dream. And this issue has been there for the past many decades.

Pakistanis have seen how they have supported terrorism in East Pakistan. We have seen (and still seeing) their support for BLA, TTP and so on.

If India leaves us alone, stops her obsession to keep us destablized by terrorism, we have no major issue with them.
Disputes like Kashmir, Siachen etc can be adressed in time.
 
Problem with Indians is they are always looking for weaknesses when they should be looking for mutual understanding and win-win scenarios.

Pakistan has made enough peace overtures and India has responded back by a campaign of absolutely obnoxious vitriol.

Keeping part of Kashmir has not been good for India's mental health. They would have been better off letting it go for the greater good of the region and their own sanity. Seeing Pakistani flags being waved in Indian territory every month surely is not good for their state of mind and herewith lies the root of the problem.

You should check your own mental health. A tweet from an Indian is enough to unsettle the whole of Pakistan and go into war mode. I would say very unhealthy.

The mor0ns in Dawn at it again!

Laanat on this media group really. I hope one day a serious govt sits in power and cleans up the media in Pakistan, which is mostly running on foreign NGO aid.

Of course the biggest issue for Pakistan is Indian sponsored terrorism to keep Pakistan destablized and to fulfill this "Akhanad Baharat" wet dream. And this issue has been there for the past many decades.

Pakistanis have seen how they have supported terrorism in East Pakistan. We have seen (and still seeing) their support for BLA, TTP and so on.

If India leaves us alone, stops her obsession to keep us destablized by terrorism, we have no major issue with them.
Disputes like Kashmir, Siachen etc can be adressed in time.

The biggest issue is the return of Azad Kashmir and GB back to India. Give us back...we won't even look at you.
 
The biggest issue is the return of Azad Kashmir and GB back to India. Give us back...we won't even look at you.

Kashmir does not belong to India.

Jammu & Kashmir belong to Kashmiris, let them decide what they want to be - with Pakistan, India or become independent. Yes it is a disputed territory and with time and patience a solution can be found.

But the immediate steps that India should take is stop her terrorism in Pakistan. Give it 10-15 years of normalization and I am quite sure a newer generation growing up without being victims of Indian sponsored terrorism will be much more flexible to adopting a solution.
 
Kashmir does not belong to India.

Jammu & Kashmir belong to Kashmiris, let them decide what they want to be - with Pakistan, India or become independent. Yes it is a disputed territory and with time and patience a solution can be found.

But the immediate steps that India should take is stop her terrorism in Pakistan. Give it 10-15 years of normalization and I am quite sure a newer generation growing up without being victims of Indian sponsored terrorism will be much more flexible to adopting a solution.

Especially on Kashmir, I am not interested on rhetoric. Our position is that the whole of J&K as on 1947 belongs to India

It is false allegation that India has anything to do with terrorism in Pakistan. There are so many bomb blasts and other terrorist attacks in Pakistan in last 15 years. How many caught are Indians? Zero. You politicians are incompetent and hence to escape they are using India as an excuse.
 
Real issue - Pak delusional quest for parity with India, particularly in military terms. That's good for us, already drains an economy tied up by tenuous Chinese paper string. Beyond that I don't care enough about Pal psyche to dig any further. I don't wish to muddle into the teenage mind that whines about aatami hatiyaar at every little hiccup.

As has been elaborated, there is virtually nothing for India to gain from normal ties with Pak. Nothing in economic terms that we don't have an alternative for; militarily, we are not going to stop increasing our spend and upgrading as Pak is a small factor in our geo-political ambitions. In the coming decades, we need ability to project power around the globe.

So from an Indian perspective, we are perfectly content with the current scenario, particularly with Pak tied up in trying to keep their country together. Let's see if they succeed in the coming decades; before we do anything else.
 
This is the worst article published in a while.
I mean,how intellectually dishonest can you be while addressing Pakistan's concern.
This article is a mean attempt to brush one of the biggest issue of this region under the rug.I.e Indian sponsored terrorism in Pakistan.
The thing is,who needs enemies when you have such propaganda specialist media house doing it for the enemy and doing it better than the enemy.
We need to get rid of these internal black. sheeps before looking at India.
I don't think that even an extremist Pakistan hater hindu can write such an article which this sorry person has.
You would have atleast expected a mention of Pakistan's apprehensions of Indian involvement from even an Indian author.
This is cruelity.Jis mulk ka khatey hen,usi par bhonktay hen.
 
Nothing much change till Modi sarkar in charge, we fighting now the monster we created aka extremism, Modi busy now other side promoting extremism and hate like a drunk giant elephant scaring around, we doing our part to fight against terrorism, Nawaz went to India with good gesture on Taj poshi of Modi, we call for dialogues regarding Kashmir and other issues but India took it as our weakness, it's time for India to fight against it's terrorist state leaders aka Modi and Group.

This government is mostly centrist. If you think this is an extreme, you haven't even seen a truly RW Hindu government yet, that might be a reality in the coming future if Modi does not delivery on that front; he will obviously delivery economically and militarily.

You were warned not to meet with separatists, you did; thus, talks called off. Only you are to blame. If you want to negotiate with unelected separatists, you are welcome to do so.
 
Especially on Kashmir, I am not interested on rhetoric. Our position is that the whole of J&K as on 1947 belongs to India

It is false allegation that India has anything to do with terrorism in Pakistan. There are so many bomb blasts and other terrorist attacks in Pakistan in last 15 years. How many caught are Indians? Zero. You politicians are incompetent and hence to escape they are using India as an excuse.

And can you tell me how many Mujahideen fought against Soviet were Americans? Going by that argument, does that mean USA did not support them?

India's support for terrorist outfits like Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA, TTP is no secret. So please spare us your Indian wisdom. Of course to carry out her dirty workd, India will rent out available foot soldiers , which are more than enough in Afghanistan, India or Pakistan. If some country had to exploit the fault lines in India, all they need to do is to throw in some good money, brainwash them and you will see how many Indians will line up to blow themselves up.

Back on the issue of Kashmir: It has never been part of India, you can keep repeating your Mantra for hundreds of years, no one can stop you from doing it.

A just solution has to be found for this disputed territory and my proposal would be to freeze the issue for 10-15 years. India withdrawing major number of her troops in occupied Kashmir, so that Kashmiris can have some time to think with clear mind. Both countries focus on internal growth providing their populations with education, health and other social benefits and I think with the passage of time most of the population on both sides will be much less hostile to a compromise.
 
And can you tell me how many Mujahideen fought against Soviet were Americans? Going by that argument, does that mean USA did not support them?

India's support for terrorist outfits like Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA, TTP is no secret. So please spare us your Indian wisdom. Of course to carry out her dirty workd, India will rent out available foot soldiers , which are more than enough in Afghanistan, India or Pakistan. If some country had to exploit the fault lines in India, all they need to do is to throw in some good money, brainwash them and you will see how many Indians will line up to blow themselves up.

You and China and others have tried and failed. The latest Chinese attempt to consolidate all NE insurgents is being taken care of.

Its not child's play, it takes serious ability and money; a combination of which both you and China lack. In fact, no country really has that anymore. The bigger the country, the harder it is to do.

Ukraine is a one of recent example and that too has been effectively been neutered by Russia.

Back on the issue of Kashmir: It has never been part of India, you can keep repeating your Mantra for hundreds of years, no one can stop you from doing it.

A just solution has to be found for this disputed territory and my proposal would be to freeze the issue for 10-15 years. India withdrawing major number of her troops in occupied Kashmir, so that Kashmiris can have some time to think with clear mind. Both countries focus on internal growth providing their populations with education, health and other social benefits and I think with the passage of time most of the population on both sides will be much less hostile to a compromise.

You too can keep shouting yourself hoarse about plebiscite, not going to happen. No one in the world cares, not even your dear buddy China.

Read the UN charter, first Pak need to withdraw its troops. Do that, then talk.

Anyway, we are perfectly fine with the current scenario. You guys are welcome to try to do what you can.
 
And can you tell me how many Mujahideen fought against Soviet were Americans? Going by that argument, does that mean USA did not support them?

India's support for terrorist outfits like Mukti Bahini, LTTE, BLA, TTP is no secret. So please spare us your Indian wisdom. Of course to carry out her dirty workd, India will rent out available foot soldiers , which are more than enough in Afghanistan, India or Pakistan. If some country had to exploit the fault lines in India, all they need to do is to throw in some good money, brainwash them and you will see how many Indians will line up to blow themselves up.

Back on the issue of Kashmir: It has never been part of India, you can keep repeating your Mantra for hundreds of years, no one can stop you from doing it.

A just solution has to be found for this disputed territory and my proposal would be to freeze the issue for 10-15 years. India withdrawing major number of her troops in occupied Kashmir, so that Kashmiris can have some time to think with clear mind. Both countries focus on internal growth providing their populations with education, health and other social benefits and I think with the passage of time most of the population on both sides will be much less hostile to a compromise.

If India has supported BLA, TTP, and you have evidence, Pakistan should provide evidence in UN, and to international community. Failure on Pakistan to provide the evidence has put serious doubts on Pakistani claims.
 
You and China and others have tried and failed. The latest Chinese attempt to consolidate all NE insurgents is being taken care of.

Its not child's play, it takes serious ability and money; a combination of which both you and China lack. In fact, no country really has that anymore. The bigger the country, the harder it is to do.

Ukraine is a one of recent example and that too has been effectively been neutered by Russia.



You too can keep shouting yourself hoarse about plebiscite, not going to happen. No one in the world cares, not even your dear buddy China.

Read the UN charter, first Pak need to withdraw its troops. Do that, then talk.

Anyway, we are perfectly fine with the current scenario. You guys are welcome to try to do what you can.

So now while you are focusing more on about how happy and immune to foreign influence Indians are, let me bring you back to reality:

- India has the largest number of poor people in the world
- India has more fault lines than any other country in the world: Sikhs, Kashmiris, Maoists, Dalits, Muslims, Christians and so on and on

There are so many people with grievances against each other that it would only take 1/100th of the 500 million dollars (that India has dedicated for terrorism in Pakistan for fiscal year 2015/16) to spread chaos there.

So think about it again.
 
FORGET the loons and the kooks, the puff-chested braggarts and the incorrigible denialists, and ask yourself this: what is the Pak-India relationship really about?

At its core, as defined in the present era, stripped of hype and hyperbole, denuded of posturing and silliness, what is it that Pakistan and India need of each other in strategic terms?

Not trade, not normalisation, none of the aspirational stuff — what can the two of them simply not ignore about the other?

For India, it’s pretty straightforward: avoid another Mumbai. That means, can’t ignore the anti-India lot, LeT and the like, sloshing around in Pakistan.

Combined, the Pakistani and Indian responses make for some fireworks and a great deal of noise. But it does little to change the contradiction at the heart of the relationship.
From an Indian perspective, anti-India militancy in Pakistan has to be the baseline — no state, government or security establishment can possibly ignore it. Nor should they. Nor will they.

For Pakistan, you have to probe a little more, but it comes into view all right. It’s not Kashmir, at least not Kashmir in the conventional sense described here.

The K-boat sailed a long time ago and nothing more will be wrested, at the negotiating table or on the battlefield, than roughly the four-point solution of the Mush era.

So, unfinished business or not, what we’re lectured about or not, Kashmir is hardly a strategic core, whose presence or absence directly determines the very course of the country.

At most Kashmir is an institutional core — allowing the boys to justify their exalted status and internal predominance.

So, what then? It’s the Indian war machine, specifically, its conventional capabilities. It’s the only thing that’s unsustainable — the threat of a chasm between the conventional capabilities of the two countries.

The Kashmir dispute we can sustain, water we can probably keep squabbling over, no-trade status we can continue, people-to-people contact we can ignore, but there’s an inherent divergence in the conventional capabilities of us and them that folk here gloss over with a little lie.

That lie is this: the wider the conventional gap grows — as India plays catch-up with and overtakes Pakistan in various aspects of the military realm — all that will happen is that Pakistan will lower the nuclear threshold and hence Pakistan will still be able to protect itself. Neat and deadly.

But follow that logic a bit. We already have an example: from the Indian parliament attack to Operation Parakram to the quasi-mooting of Cold Start to Pakistan developing smaller missiles that can carry miniaturised nuclear warheads, the whole spiral has already played out.

Great. We feel safe. Here’s the problem though: tactical nuclear missiles only respond to the threat of a rapid and limited ground invasion by the Indians. There are a whole bunch of other options.

A sea blockade by the Indian navy or air strikes by the Indian air force, for example. Or, if we want to get really fancy, imagine a multi-day episode like Mumbai that triggers an OBL-style Indian raid on Muridke before the militant attack is snuffed out in India.

Much of that is fantasy, either because India can only dream of such capabilities or because it’s insanely expensive to assemble. But, given its economic trajectory, given the money it can set aside for its military, given its external relationships and given the highly skilled pockets of labour available to it, India can afford to at least take a partial stab at fantasy.

Then what? To every new conventional capability India threatens or acquires, Pakistan can’t simply lower the nuclear threshold further. That would be absurd and unworkable for a bunch of reasons, not least because it would mean us sitting on a hair-trigger that would give the world jitters.

So, in every realistic scenario, Pakistan cannot let the conventional parity with India grow too out of whack. And in every realistic scenario, Pakistan simply doesn’t have the resources to compete conventionally — if India decides to hit the accelerator.

Either it would bankrupt us à la the Soviets and the Cold War or it would drive us to do something desperate before the point of no return is reached.

That, then, is the core of the Pak-India relationship: the intolerable threat of militancy for India and the unsustainable proposition of a conventional arms race for Pakistan.

And that also explains why the relationship is again near insoluble — the fear of one feeds the fear of the other.

Why should Pakistan give up on the proxy threat when it can’t compete in the long term in the conventional realm and militancy is the one thing India doesn’t have an answer to?

And why would India give up the option of pulling away conventionally if it’s the one thing that could make Pakistan consider giving up its proxies for good?

The worst thing about the Pak-India relationship is not that it doesn’t make sense, but that, when you look at it closely, the damn thing makes a kind of perverse sense.

Which brings us to the present. Pakistan’s hedge against a possible arms race with India has been to stabilise ties with the US: chummy up to the Americans and keep the weapons flowing while there’s a hawk in Delhi. It’s no accident that ties with the US are at their most stable in years.

India’s response to the continuing militancy threat has been to change tack from Manmohan Singh’s tentative diplomacy to Modi flirting with the proxy threat against Pakistan.

Combined, the Pakistani and Indian responses make for some fireworks and a great deal of noise. But it does little to change the contradiction at the heart of the relationship.

An intolerable threat for the Indian side and an unsustainable proposition for the Pakistani side is a riddle no one appears to have the answer to.

India, Pakistan, again - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
so in short


the writer means pakistan wants peace with india but at pakistans set of rules / terms but the problem is they cant afford to keep doing what they had been doingfor last 68 years against india and the new indian govermnt has changed the equation by opting for "offensive defnce"

which in turn is making all the past startegies of pakistani establishment non vaible and too much risky which india can offord or has learned to live with but pakistan cant

so what now?
 

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