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Is Pakistan’s future submarine programme sailing into troubled waters?

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Is Pakistan’s future submarine programme sailing into troubled waters? By Usman Ansari, 01/08/2009

It’s been a long time coming, and many had hoped that the deal would have been signed by now, but the deal for the first three HDW Type-214 submarines for Pakistan has yet to materialise. That may not be so bad, because as I reported in Defense News a while back, the deal is expected to be signed before the end of Pakistan’s financial year, which is in August. It will then be ratified by the German government, which would happen in or just after September.

However, speculation is rife that a spanner is being readied to be thrown into the works in favour of the hitherto discounted French ‘submarine formerly known as Marlin’ (SFKAM), but now a member of the Scorpene family. There are malicious rumours doing the rounds that the French have been offering a better deal, (news to me, and also to everyone else I’ve spoken to), and that the SFKAM is somehow back in the running even after the navy has painstakingly evaluated both designs, and chosen the Type-214, (ie the one that actually exists and is in service, because the SFKAM is nothing but a paper submarine which exists on nothing but paper, so can’t actually be evaluated as a direct comparison).

The only way this can happen at this late stage, is Mr Ten-Percent, President Asif Ali Zardari himself, the man who sprung to fame strapping bombs to businessmen’s legs and getting them to hand over the contents of their bank accounts. The last time he was in a position to adversely hamper a defence deal he was Finance Minister (despite having no education to speak of beyond being a spiv with hardly any redeeming qualities, if any – though he is rumoured to have killed his wife). As Finance Minister he demanded a hefty commission on a deal for some ex-French Air Force Mirage-2000s, (along with his dearly departed wife it has to be said – we can’t leave her out). The deal was consequently scrapped, and to this day the air force officially has no fighter with an operational beyond visual range air-to-air capability. (There is a bit of a riddle in there for the above brain dead, but more will become clear sometime in the future). Anyway, getting back to Zardari he is an all round bad dude with a reputation for unsavoury financial shenanigans. Currently, the French are trying to figure out if he was somehow involved in killing some French technicians working on the Agosta-90B project in 2002, who were blown up coming out of their hotel in Karachi. Apparently, Zardari was a tad annoyed he hadn’t received his full kickback for the deal, and was so short of cash he’d been reduced to rummaging about in the bin outside the local MacDonalds as a result. (Admittedly, I may be wrong about that last bit).

However, now that the French are in danger of losing their monopoly in flogging dodgy submarines to Pakistan (see below), and because the next generation Pakistan submarine project may involve around 14 submarines through the life of the programme, the chequebook, and wads of cash in brown paper bags, are back out again. The deal is after all worth billions and billions, so who cares if a few technicians died? It’s not like they can be brought back to life or anything, and as they say: ‘business is business’. That’s callous I know, but I’m not the one throwing cash about trying to elbow my way back into a submarine deal with a paper product, and ignoring the fact that the guy on the receiving end may have had his finger on the button that blew some compatriots to smithereens.

Pakistan should never have gone for French submarines in the first place. At the time the decision was made to purchase the Daphne class in the late 1960s, the navy had been told they would have the range to operate out into the Bay of Bengal from Karachi. When it was found that wasn’t the case, and the submarines would only be able to operate in and around the Arabian Sea, the French merely shrugged their shoulders and made some lame excuse about a ‘miscalculation’. They’d captured a client, and that is what counted. In fact there was nothing ever especially brilliant about the Daphne class. Sure, people will point out that PNS Hangor was the first submarine to have sunk an enemy warship in wartime since WWII, and since then only HMS Conqueror has managed to repeat the feat, (Falklands, 1982). However, I would put that down more to the professionalism of the Hangor’s crew, the particular environment the engagement took place, and the fact that INS Khukri was fairly old and at a disadvantage with regards systems. We also have to remember that the first torpedo fired failed (even after it passed directly under the keel of its intended target and didn’t explode), and alerted the Indians to Hangor’s presence, nearly leading to her being sunk. It was a close run thing.

Instead the navy should have purchased the British Oberon class, which was the best diesel-electric submarine of the entire Cold War by far. I’m not saying that because I’m biased by being British, or because I hate the French. I’m merely saying that because the Oberon class were the best diesel-electric submarines of the entire Cold War by far. Their exploits in the hands of Australian, British, and Canadian crews are stuff of legend. One day, I’ll find out why Pakistan did not purchase them, but I suspect it was on grounds of cost, and because the British government at the time, (as it is now more than ever), was probably rabidly pro-Indian. Admittedly the British, in a fit of insanity, killed their own conventional submarine industry, and their customers were taken by others, not least the Germans with the Type-209 series.

The Type-209 was another missed opportunity for Pakistan. Sadly, it wasn’t available at the time when decision was made for the Daphne. Who knows what could have been had it been the case? I can’t find anyone who has a bad thing to say about these submarines, and the design and customer service philosophy of the HDW has been unrivalled. Had Pakistan opted for a Type-209 variant even in the late 1970s, the 1980s or early 1990s instead of the Agosta-70 or Agosta-90B, I think it would have been money well spent. Besides the lethality and very high quality of the product, I have one reason for pushing the German angle, Turkey. Pakistan and Turkey have a fraternal relationship that actually predates the formation of Pakistan if that can be imagined. Having been supported by the Muslims of South Asia, (who sent large quantities of gold and other valuables to support their Turkish brethren), in the struggle that saw the birth of the modern Turkish state, that residual good will was transferred to those behind the Pakistan movement, and to the nation on its birth in 1947.

That is not all. With regards submarines, Turkey (having been one of the first nations to recognise the importance of submarines way back in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire just prior to WWI), helped train large numbers of Pakistan’s submariners, and overhauled Pakistan’s first submarine the Tench class PNS Ghazi. At the time both countries were operating ex-USN, reconditioned submarines, and Pakistan had no overhaul facility. It made sense therefore to foster and maintain a close relationship with Turkey. Pakistan’s selection of French submarines all but killed this relationship. Turkey chose to replace its submarines with the Type-209 class, various variants of which were built in its shipyards, and ‘deep’ co-operation, (operation of similar platforms which allowed inter-meshing of training and operations), ended. HDW was very generous with Turkey and enabled it to build the class in various shipyards under a transfer of technology programme. Had Pakistan opted for the Type-209 as well, it is arguably the case that Pakistan could have established a submarine construction industry under a similar deal prior to the Agosta-90B programme.

Bar the Mesma AIP system, and the Subtics combat management system, I don’t see what the big deal is about the Agosta-90B either. It’s basically a modification of the Agosta-70, which is nothing to crow about in itself. The Agosta-90B programme is celebrated because of the industrial capability it brought, not necessarily because it’s a brilliant submarine. I’ve never heard it described as such. A PN officer I spoke to once waxed lyrical about being able to produce the steel and fabricate the pressure hull (bar the pressure domes), and a Turkish industry official I met at IDEAS2008 was very impressed with that fact, but the submarine itself doesn’t seem to have people doing cartwheels. It’s possible to fit the Type-209 with an AIP system anyway (which some operators are doing), so the PN could probably have what it has in the Agosta-90B in a better submarine, the Type-209, if it had really wanted. I say it’s the better submarine because someone who was in the business of supplying submarine batteries for various types of submarines (not just western) and is familiar with a wide rnage of them as a result, gave me a run down of the capabilities of various submarines. According to him the Type-209, was simply superb.

At this point it may be recalled that the Indian Navy operates the largest of the Type-209 variants, and therefore the Pakistan Navy would be naturally hesitant in operating the same type of submarine if not the same variant. That’s probably true, but Greece and Turkey operate the Type-209, and the guy I spoke to supplies batteries for both. It’s not a problem. The same supplier sang the praises of the Type-214 as well, and he gave a very good insight into some propaganda being used to malign the Type-214, the convoluted Greek Type-214 deal. He basically said the problems that had been encountered were nothing but the normal teething troubles of a new design which had been bought straight off paper. The Greeks have a history of this, because they were also the launch customer for the Type-209, which they also bought straight off paper, and which also had teething troubles. That didn’t stop them from making follow on purchases though, and the current problems will not stop the government in Athens making follow on orders for the Type-214 in future.

For decades therefore, the German option has technologically and industrially been the better option for Pakistan, but they consistently went French. Now things are about to change, and the German, Pakistani, Turkish submarine co-operation programme that should have started decades ago, now looks like it is about to finally get off the ground. That is if the SFKAM can be kept out of the picture. I’ve written before (in Defense News) about how the Pakistani and Turkish defence relationship can be boosted by building and operating the same submarine. The defence co-operation between the two can increase in breadth and depth. Some of Pakistan’s submarines components, modules, or even entire submarines could even be built in Turkey to speed up construction and entry into operational service. Turkey could benefit in having its subs fitted with MSL’s Slimline Towed Array Sonar, which is currently being produced for the Pakistan Navy. The sonar is optimised for warm littoral waters like those found around South Asia, and could work equally well in the Mediterranean. A variant of the Babur cruise missile could even find its way onto Turkish submarines. This is just for starters. It’s a win-win situation for both countries.

This can’t happen if the SFKAM suddenly gets chosen. From IDEAS2006 I recall that it has a liquid oxygen-diesel AIP system, as opposed to the ethanol-liquid oxygen Mesma AIP system installed on the Agosta-90B. When I mentioned this to a German trying to flog the Type-214, he started laughing and replied “Well, good luck to them in getting it to work!” Good luck indeed! Opting for a paper submarine over something tried, tested, and in service is rash to say the least. With the delays that have already bedevilled the programme, Pakistan can’t afford anymore, and that would definitely be a certainty if the SFKAM was somehow now selected. There’s too much at stake to go French one more time. Zardari will eventually go, but the navy runs the risk of being lumbered with a white elephant, albeit one that swims, or is supposed to, (it’s still only a paper sub remember).

Perhaps the only way to ward this off is to stand outside the local mosque on a Friday with a towel or shawl to collect ‘chanda’/charity for poor old Zardari. I suggest Pakistanis overseas do the same too, and if not the local mosque then at least rattle tins outside the local supermarket/shopping mall. Paying Mr Ten-Percent to keep his claws off may be the only way of saving the deal from further delays. After all, it's not like we can appeal to his patriotism, only his wallet.
 
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This must be the most realistic article by usman ansari!!! his other JF-17/FC_20 and J-11 articles were fanboyish but i have to admit he has really improved his style... love it!! 10/10..
go to h-ell mr 10%!
 
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But what's the solution?

How can ordinary people force Mr.10% to go with the German sub?

There should be a mass information campaign in Pakistan to get ordinary people to pressure the government.
 
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But what's the solution?

How can ordinary people force Mr.10% to go with the German sub?

There should be a mass information campaign in Pakistan to get ordinary people to pressure the government.



Well i do have a feeling the military won't go along with his decision, the opposition has already started voicing opposition & demanding in-camera briefings.

The reason PN is or was going for U-214 was the reason that it has also been selected by Turkey with a complete ToT. Plus other reasons too.

And the COAS recently went to Germany, and this would have come up on the agenda, he just wouldn't have gone just for the Leopard tanks, that could have been evaluated by someone else too.

He must have some important things to discuss with the Germans that he took such a long journey for just a one day trip.
 
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go to h-ell mr 10%!

French Subs or German, Pakistan can do without any of them. Think twice before calling Sir Zardari Mr. 10%. How could you stay stuck in some news-article written 12 year back? What is that 10%? in reality it might be only 9.6% or even lesser but its always rounded off and called as 10%? Why? Sir Zardari knows that the world hates him and calls him foot(A$$)-licker but even then does what he needs to do for the country. He tells the world that Pakistan is about to fall in the hands of Taliban if they didn't support his government. He is a self-less person in true sense. And what is he asking from you and this nation for the great service? He well deserve to earn few million dollars from billions of dollars of french deal. He has 2 English Speaking daughters and a son (who'll be our next prime-minister) to look after. Did you ever think about it? He needs our support and tolerance. Please support PPP and let Zardari earn his bread.. with that, I would also request you to stay at homes, avoid street-protests and tolerate more and celebrate democracy. This is for our betterment in the end!

I am longing to see the day when Blawal-Bhutto-Zardari would be our Prime-Minister.. and if I am not wrong, we are merely heading towards that. We deserve him.. even being a patriotic Pakistani, I deserve to be governed by somebody great like him and so does every Pakistani!

:pakistan:
 
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How could you stay stuck in some news-article written 12 year back?

Sir, this is not a 12 years old article, the date has been written on it, its just a couple of days old article.
 
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French Subs or German, Pakistan can do without any of them. Think twice before calling Sir Zardari Mr. 10%. How could you stay stuck in some news-article written 12 year back? What is that 10%? in reality it might be only 9.6 or even lesser but its always rounded off and called as 10%? Why? Sir Zardari knows that the world hates him and calls him foot(A$$)-licker but even then does what he needs to do for the country. He tells the world that Pakistan is about to fall in the hands of Taliban if they didn't support his government. He is a self-less person in true sense. And what is he asking from you and this nation for the great service? He well deserve to earn few million dollars from billions of dollars of french deal. He has 2 English Speaking daughters and a son (who'll be our next prime-minister) to look after. Did you ever think about it? He needs our support and tolerance. Please support PPP and let Zardari earn his bread.. with that, I would also request you to stay at homes, avoid street-protests and tolerate more and celebrate democracy. This is for our betterment in the end!

I am longing to see the day when Blawal-Bhutto-Zardari would be our Prime-Minister.. and if I am not wrong, we are merely heading towards that. We deserve him.. even being a patriotic Pakistani, I deserve to be governed by somebody great like him and so does every Pakistani!

:pakistan:

hell with you and your sir zardari!
and stop acting like a clown like your rest of peeples..
and oh are you talking about that teenage boy half drunk party animal being the prime minister of pakistan?
 
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hell with you and your sir zardari!
and stop acting like a clown like your rest of peeples..
and oh are you talking about that teenage boy half drunk party animal being the prime minister of pakistan?
He was probably high on serious **** when he wrote that.
 
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hahahahahahahahaha, guys i think it was sarcastic remark by graphican, nothing serious.
 
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hell with you and your sir zardari!
and stop acting like a clown like your rest of peeples..
and oh are you talking about that teenage boy half drunk party animal being the prime minister of pakistan?

LOL.. Sir! You missed the spirit of my post! pleas make an effort to read second time. :) Have a happy reading this time!
 
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French Subs or German, Pakistan can do without any of them. Think twice before calling Sir Zardari Mr. 10%. How could you stay stuck in some news-article written 12 year back? What is that 10%? in reality it might be only 9.6 or even lesser but its always rounded off and called as 10%? Why? Sir Zardari knows that the world hates him and calls him foot(A$$)-licker but even then does what he needs to do for the country. He tells the world that Pakistan is about to fall in the hands of Taliban if they didn't support his government. He is a self-less person in true sense. And what is he asking from you and this nation for the great service? He well deserve to earn few million dollars from billions of dollars of french deal. He has 2 English Speaking daughters and a son (who'll be our next prime-minister) to look after. Did you ever think about it? He needs our support and tolerance. Please support PPP and let Zardari earn his bread.. with that, I would also request you to stay at homes, avoid street-protests and tolerate more and celebrate democracy. This is for our betterment in the end!

I am longing to see the day when Blawal-Bhutto-Zardari would be our Prime-Minister.. and if I am not wrong, we are merely heading towards that. We deserve him.. even being a patriotic Pakistani, I deserve to be governed by somebody great like him and so does every Pakistani!

:pakistan:

Boss in all due respect wake the hell up ! stop posting rubish about 10% and his fam and followers no one is interested here nor in Pak give me the name of the drink you having > :cheers: :mod:
 
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Sir, this is not a 12 years old article, the date has been written on it, its just a couple of days old article.

I appologise.. actually I am so carried away in the love of Sir Zardari that I feel every blame of corruption is decade old history. I think I need to be more neutral here but I am not the only one, all the senior and most of the public representatives and social servants of PPP are offering the same degree of love as I am doing. They never complain and never questioned the divine intellectual abilities of Sir Zardari. I personally feel those 8 years of lonesome imprisonment has invoked few additional spiritual chakras in him that he is able to govern better than he used to do before. I am sure his name will be written in history and we will remember him for many generations coming ahead. Few days back I had missed the "Collective Prayer" conducted for the long-life of Sir Zardari. Are there any members willing to conduct that again?

:pakistan:
 
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Boss in all due respect wake the hell up ! stop posting rubish about 10% and his fam and followers no one is interested here nor in Pak give me the name of the drink you having > :cheers: :mod:

Sir I am only a humble supporter of his services to the nation. I am not loving him without any reason. Every day when I wake up, I have a reason to thank Sir Zardari. Sometime at gass-station, at grocery-store and also while trying to sleep at night.

I truely believe no one can attain this greatness over-night and if Sir Zardari has reached those heights, its not one man's contribution. I want to thank my PPP representatives, senior leadership and rest of the countrymen who realized that Bhutto Family has sacrificed enough and now its time when a Zardari should rule us. Thank you for being wise on the issue of leadership. Rules of leadership are not complex and anybody who uses 25% of his brain could be our leader and I truly believe Sir Zardari would be using a little more then that. I know many people hate Sir Zardari and call him Mr. 10%, A$$-Licker, BehanC**d, MadarC**d, Kut*ayKaPu*ter, Rand*i-ka-Ba*cha and all that.. but in reality they deserve equal thanks for their silence and support and letting a great man do his job in presidency.

:pakistan:
 
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Sir I am only a humble supporter of his services to the nation. I am not loving him without any reason. Every day when I wake up, I have a reason to thank Sir Zardari. Sometime at gass-station, at grocery-store and also while trying to sleep at night.

I truely believe no one can attain this greatness over-night and if Sir Zardari has reached those heights, its not one man's contribution. I want to thank my PPP representatives, senior leadership and rest of the countrymen who realized that Bhutto Family has sacrificed enough and now its time when a Zardari should rule us. Thank you for being wise on the issue of leadership. Rules of leadership are not complex and anybody who uses 25% of his brain could be our leader and I truly believe Sir Zardari would be using a little more then that. I know many people hate Sir Zardari and call him Mr. 10%, A$$-Licker, BehanC**d, MadarC**d, Kut*ayKaPu*ter, Rand*i-ka-Ba*cha and all that.. but in reality they deserve equal thanks for their silence and support and letting a great man do his job in presidency.

:pakistan:


First of all how old are you? second do you have any idea or clue who and wat and why you are supporting 10%? do you even know his history? or his fam history? do you know wat he & his courpt gov is doing to Pakistan? My fam has serverd proudly in the armed forces of Pakistan and some are still so i think i know a bit more of the inside scoup then you ! and all of Pakistan know's your 10% even us overseas Pakistani! you know why because we acutally care wat happens to our nation and its future other then you with no knowledge and nor and facts to back up your statments ! you must be on something forsure ! iam done here :tdown::hitwall: :crazy:
 
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