What's new

Is Pakistan ready for change?

Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
20,487
Reaction score
182
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
This follows from another thread > https://defence.pk/threads/can-pak-ban-china.454561/

UK 1979.

Telephone company
. Public ownership. Cost to make calls exorbitant. To get a line you had to wait 3 months. To pay the bill you had to stand in a long queue.Service was terrible. You paid over the top and the customer after being fleeced had to say thank you.

Electricy company
. Public ownership. As a kid in 1970s I remember doing my homework using candles to light my bedroom. The problem was the public electric corporations were required to buy coal for power generation from another monopoly. No coal and no lights.

British Coal. Public ownership. 100,000s of working class people worked in public coal mines. Entire towns called "pit towns" depended on the miners. Every third man in these town was a miner. Generations before them since the industrial age began had worked in these pit towns. The mines had long ago stopped being efficient. Too much manpower working well below efficiency but with jobs guranteed, lack of modern technology, working seams that long ago had become uneconomical made the coal twice more expensive than external market. The miners would go on strike regularly decreasing the pathetic productivity even further. The consumer suffered and government bailed out the billions lost of every year.

British Leyland Cars. Public ownership.Cars like Austin Montego, Allegro were byword for poor build quality, rusting within year of purchase, expensive. BLC employed 100,000 of workers in Birmingham most of who sat around fiddling their fingers or having tea and smoking breaks. Again customer being punished with terrible product and government dishing out billions to cover the lost making concerns.

This pattern subsisted across the economy. Millions of people working below par, producing below par prodocts at prices that were too high. The customer suffered with terible choice of product and government suffered billions in having to cover the loss making concerns. The problem was protectionism, too much regulation, too many restrictions. This created a closed off economy that was simply uncompetitive in the world. How was this sustained? By borrowing. UK even had to go to IMF for loans to keep it going from bankrupt as the economy was bleeding the country dry.

May 1979. Margaret Thatcher becomes PM. She sets about restructuring the British economy. To put it bluntly she declares that no protection will be afforded to any part of the economy. The door will open to full competition. Anything that is not able to compete will be allowed to die. The fittest will survive and will grow stronger and faster.

United Kingdom went through profound change. Suddenly all electric companies were privatized. They then sacked excess workers. They went from being fat cows to lean mean athletes. They could buy coal from any source which meant they scoured the world to get imported coal at 40% that British Coal sold it at. The coal industry died overnight. Million plus miners became unemployed. Entite pit towns died and turned into ghost towns. As competition killed 70% of the economic concerns it led to mass unemployment. There was mass civil disorder leading to almost civil war. Entire cities were almost laid to waste.

For example Sheffield went from one of the largest steel producers to seeing most of the mills close down. PM Margaret Thatcher faced incredible pressure to change her policy of "open free trade and competion". By early 1980s almost 25% of the labour force had become reduandant or semi employed as company after company went bankrupt. Facing millions of unemployed workers fighting broke out. Thatcher faced pressure from her ministers to change course. This is what was happening across the country.


There was war on the streets. The police fought running battles with umemployed miners and other works who opposed the opening up of the economy as they knew it would mean their jobs would go. With her ministers starting to weaken in their resolve top open the UK economy PM Thatcher showed what true leadership means, This is when she gave this "this lady does no U-turns" in reply to the advice her ministers gave to change her policy. She persisted.

She then moved to British Airways which like PIA was losing money every year. It was privatized and 80% of workers sacked to turn the company into world winner it is today. The result of this was lie moving all the weeds and then allowing the fresh green healthy saplings take route. Thatcher concentrated on creating a open level playing field where only the fittest would surive. Efficiency, innovation and competiveness was the new mantra. Nothing was holy. If it was not fit it died.

This led to new generation of entreprenuers who took advantage of the new openess to build new companies and compete with the best in the world.


This is exactly what Pakistan needs to do. In those days all the strikers used to complain about Australian Coal, Japanese, German Car manfacturers, South Korean TV manufactuers. The truth was it was not their fault. The fault was within UK which could not compet with them.

Today Pakistan can complain about Chinese imporets or open up and join in the race to be best. Out of it will come a new breed of companies and businessmen who will stand o their feet and compete with the world. Or are people worried that Pakistani's can't compete with the world? Yes, in the short term like UK in 1980s it will suffer but from the other end will come a new rejuvenated country and economy. Pakistan needs to grab the Dragon by the tail, learn from it and outrun it.

Has Pakistan got what it takes? I certainly think so.

@Desert Fox @Chinese-Dragon @AndrewJin @Sinopakfriend
 
This follows from another thread > https://defence.pk/threads/can-pak-ban-china.454561/

UK 1979.

Telephone company
. Public ownership. Cost to make calls exorbitant. To get a line you had to wait 3 months. To pay the bill you had to stand in a long queue.Service was terrible. You paid over the top and the customer after being fleeced had to say thank you.

Electricy company
. Public ownership. As a kid in 1970s I remember doing my homework using candles to light my bedroom. The problem was the public electric corporations were required to buy coal for power generation from another monopoly. No coal and no lights.

British Coal. Public ownership. 100,000s of working class people worked in public coal mines. Entire towns called "pit towns" depended on the miners. Every third man in these town was a miner. Generations before them since the industrial age began had worked in these pit towns. The mines had long ago stopped being efficient. Too much manpower working well below efficiency but with jobs guranteed, lack of modern technology, working seams that long ago had become uneconomical made the coal twice more expensive than external market. The miners would go on strike regularly decreasing the pathetic productivity even further. The consumer suffered and government bailed out the billions lost of every year.

British Leyland Cars. Public ownership.Cars like Austin Montego, Allegro were byword for poor build quality, rusting within year of purchase, expensive. BLC employed 100,000 of workers in Birmingham most of who sat around fiddling their fingers or having tea and smoking breaks. Again customer being punished with terrible product and government dishing out billions to cover the lost making concerns.

This pattern subsisted across the economy. Millions of people working below par, producing below par prodocts at prices that were too high. The customer suffered with terible choice of product and government suffered billions in having to cover the loss making concerns. The problem was protectionism, too much regulation, too many restrictions. This created a closed off economy that was simply uncompetitive in the world. How was this sustained? By borrowing. UK even had to go to IMF for loans to keep it going from bankrupt as the economy was bleeding the country dry.

May 1979. Margaret Thatcher becomes PM. She sets about restructuring the British economy. To put it bluntly she declares that no protection will be afforded to any part of the economy. The door will open to full competition. Anything that is not able to compete will be allowed to die. The fittest will survive and will grow stronger and faster.

United Kingdom went through profound change. Suddenly all electric companies were privatized. They then sacked excess workers. They went from being fat cows to lean mean athletes. They could buy coal from any source which meant they scoured the world to get imported coal at 40% that British Coal sold it at. The coal industry died overnight. Million plus miners became unemployed. Entite pit towns died and turned into ghost towns. As competition killed 70% of the economic concerns it led to mass unemployment. There was mass civil disorder leading to almost civil war. Entire cities were almost laid to waste.

For example Sheffield went from one of the largest steel producers to seeing most of the mills close down. PM Margaret Thatcher faced incredible pressure to change her policy of "open free trade and competion". By early 1980s almost 25% of the labour force had become reduandant or semi employed as company after company went bankrupt. Facing millions of unemployed workers fighting broke out. Thatcher faced pressure from her ministers to change course. This is what was happening across the country.


There was war on the streets. The police fought running battles with umemployed miners and other works who opposed the opening up of the economy as they knew it would mean their jobs would go. With her ministers starting to weaken in their resolve top open the UK economy PM Thatcher showed what true leadership means, This is when she gave this "this lady does no U-turns" in reply to the advice her ministers gave to change her policy. She persisted.

She then moved to British Airways which like PIA was losing money every year. It was privatized and 80% of workers sacked to turn the company into world winner it is today. The result of this was lie moving all the weeds and then allowing the fresh green healthy saplings take route. Thatcher concentrated on creating a open level playing field where only the fittest would surive. Efficiency, innovation and competiveness was the new mantra. Nothing was holy. If it was not fit it died.

This led to new generation of entreprenuers who took advantage of the new openess to build new companies and compete with the best in the world.


This is exactly what Pakistan needs to do. In those days all the strikers used to complain about Australian Coal, Japanese, German Car manfacturers, South Korean TV manufactuers. The truth was it was not their fault. The fault was within UK which could not compet with them.

Today Pakistan can complain about Chinese imporets or open up and join in the race to be best. Out of it will come a new breed of companies and businessmen who will stand o their feet and compete with the world. Or are people worried that Pakistani's can't compete with the world? Yes, in the short term like UK in 1980s it will suffer but from the other end will come a new rejuvenated country and economy. Pakistan needs to grab the Dragon by the tail, learn from it and outrun it.

Has Pakistan got what it takes? I certainly think so.

@Desert Fox @Chinese-Dragon @AndrewJin @Sinopakfriend
Both arguments have their pros and cons and i think it also comes down to the specific circumstances of the particular country as well. In some cases protectionism has worked and bore fruit (like China, and it's gotten them pretty far) and in some cases it hasn't as was the case for the U.K. as you pointed out.
 
Exactly the reason for said difficulty! :D
Difficult and impossible are two differant words. The former implies a possibility even if it is remote. The latter implies zero possiblity.

Now you know "she beez dead". So what do you think it is. Difficult or impossible to get her to chip over to Pakistan? I go with impossible.

And I was at school during those tumultuous times singing this song.

 
Pakistan can definitely stand up on its feet if given proper leadership. Even in businesses, if the management is poor then the companies suffer more than just financially. I think to become more industrialized, we must bring some sort of democratic change within, only then can we to move on to step 2.
 
Great thead @Kaptaan. :tup:

In this world, you need to be competitive to succeed.

That said, I don't think protectionism is wrong as long as you are using it to "buy time" in order to make your domestic industries competitive. Which is what most major economies today have done, including China.

If that's the case, then absolutely go for it. However in many cases, protectionism is used as an excuse not to compete. Instead of making domestic industries strong, they grow weak and complacent due to lack of competition.

Pakistan needs a visionary leadership that can shake up the entire foundations of the economy. Like Deng Xiaoping did, like Thatcher did. And it will be a very painful process, as it always is.
 
Great thead
Thank you.

In this world, you need to be competitive to succeed.
Absolutely. Right now the economy in Pakistan is geared to keep a rentier class established via licences, franchises, state monopolies and doling out captive markets.

That said, I don't think protectionism is wrong as long as you are using it to "buy time" in order to make your domestic industries competitive.
I know. However increasingly the days of autarky are numbered. Even then this suits larger countries or countries with serious advantage in raw matarials. Pakistan is neither. There is hardly a drop of iron in the country or economical supply of coal. In India as comparison they have huge iron and coal reserves in addition to having huge internal market. Protectionism there nurtured a steel industry which leveraged the natures gift.

However I think the way forward for Pakistan is what I call the "New EU entrant" pathway. If you look at new countries that join in EU typically they have protected but inefficent economies. As trade barriers are removed goods flood in from the EU. This kills local industry. However the new entrant is not allowed to die because it is vital export market for the EU. Investment flows in from EU to sectors that offer opportunity which helps the new entrant find it's legs and float. As it rises the EU benefits from a growing market for it's exports. It is a win, win for both.

Nearly 50 years ago President Ayub Khan of Pakistan asked for similar free trade pact like EU has but minus the political aspect but his calls went unheeded. Had the West given that to Pakistan today it would have been like South Korea. However because of geographic remoteness and on the edge of the Western world's interests Ayub Khan's efforts went no where. Had Pakistan been at the fulcrum of Western world's interests or been geographically closer it might have got a trade deal. Listen's to his speech. The future is predicated in many ways.




However in 2016 we are in another epoch. China offers the possibility that Ayub failed to get in 1960s with Europe. China has become a global economy and indeed is on the way to becoming a hyperpower. Of even more relevance is China is right next door. CPEC will connect both economies. If Pakistan can secure similar open trade with China it will be win win even if in the short term it might hurt.
 
Last edited:
Had the West given that to Pakistan today it would have been like South Korea.

S. Korea didn't get trade deals with anyone either. Neither did Japan or Germany.

CPEC is Pakistan's chance to enact the reforms necessary, once China begins dumping it's low-skilled labor industries into Pakistan it'll help quell the revolts and provide the new blood necessary for Pakistan to flourish.

Edit: Forgot to mention there is a FTA with China, turns out it's underutilized by Pakistan's own accounts.
 
Last edited:
If that's the case, then absolutely go for it. However in many cases, protectionism is used as an excuse not to compete. Instead of making domestic industries strong, they grow weak and complacent due to lack of competition.

Just look at the local car industry in Pakistan as an example of protectionism gone crazy, and too entrenched to dislodge. Or PIA. Or Pakistan Steel. Or Pakistan Railways.

Yup, Pakistan is no UK, even if Thatcher were to come back from the dead. After all, it has happened at least once before in human history, so the chances are not totally zero. :D
 
o4YBAFO2ARuAV6stAAKlYWOo9d8210_b.jpg
9787503611551.jpg

These two books have saved China and changed China.
This is a powerful ideological weapon.
It allows China to find its own path of development.
We did not copy the Soviet Union and the western system
 
This follows from another thread > https://defence.pk/threads/can-pak-ban-china.454561/

UK 1979.

Telephone company
. Public ownership. Cost to make calls exorbitant. To get a line you had to wait 3 months. To pay the bill you had to stand in a long queue.Service was terrible. You paid over the top and the customer after being fleeced had to say thank you.

Electricy company
. Public ownership. As a kid in 1970s I remember doing my homework using candles to light my bedroom. The problem was the public electric corporations were required to buy coal for power generation from another monopoly. No coal and no lights.

British Coal. Public ownership. 100,000s of working class people worked in public coal mines. Entire towns called "pit towns" depended on the miners. Every third man in these town was a miner. Generations before them since the industrial age began had worked in these pit towns. The mines had long ago stopped being efficient. Too much manpower working well below efficiency but with jobs guranteed, lack of modern technology, working seams that long ago had become uneconomical made the coal twice more expensive than external market. The miners would go on strike regularly decreasing the pathetic productivity even further. The consumer suffered and government bailed out the billions lost of every year.

British Leyland Cars. Public ownership.Cars like Austin Montego, Allegro were byword for poor build quality, rusting within year of purchase, expensive. BLC employed 100,000 of workers in Birmingham most of who sat around fiddling their fingers or having tea and smoking breaks. Again customer being punished with terrible product and government dishing out billions to cover the lost making concerns.

This pattern subsisted across the economy. Millions of people working below par, producing below par prodocts at prices that were too high. The customer suffered with terible choice of product and government suffered billions in having to cover the loss making concerns. The problem was protectionism, too much regulation, too many restrictions. This created a closed off economy that was simply uncompetitive in the world. How was this sustained? By borrowing. UK even had to go to IMF for loans to keep it going from bankrupt as the economy was bleeding the country dry.

May 1979. Margaret Thatcher becomes PM. She sets about restructuring the British economy. To put it bluntly she declares that no protection will be afforded to any part of the economy. The door will open to full competition. Anything that is not able to compete will be allowed to die. The fittest will survive and will grow stronger and faster.

United Kingdom went through profound change. Suddenly all electric companies were privatized. They then sacked excess workers. They went from being fat cows to lean mean athletes. They could buy coal from any source which meant they scoured the world to get imported coal at 40% that British Coal sold it at. The coal industry died overnight. Million plus miners became unemployed. Entite pit towns died and turned into ghost towns. As competition killed 70% of the economic concerns it led to mass unemployment. There was mass civil disorder leading to almost civil war. Entire cities were almost laid to waste.

For example Sheffield went from one of the largest steel producers to seeing most of the mills close down. PM Margaret Thatcher faced incredible pressure to change her policy of "open free trade and competion". By early 1980s almost 25% of the labour force had become reduandant or semi employed as company after company went bankrupt. Facing millions of unemployed workers fighting broke out. Thatcher faced pressure from her ministers to change course. This is what was happening across the country.


There was war on the streets. The police fought running battles with umemployed miners and other works who opposed the opening up of the economy as they knew it would mean their jobs would go. With her ministers starting to weaken in their resolve top open the UK economy PM Thatcher showed what true leadership means, This is when she gave this "this lady does no U-turns" in reply to the advice her ministers gave to change her policy. She persisted.

She then moved to British Airways which like PIA was losing money every year. It was privatized and 80% of workers sacked to turn the company into world winner it is today. The result of this was lie moving all the weeds and then allowing the fresh green healthy saplings take route. Thatcher concentrated on creating a open level playing field where only the fittest would surive. Efficiency, innovation and competiveness was the new mantra. Nothing was holy. If it was not fit it died.

This led to new generation of entreprenuers who took advantage of the new openess to build new companies and compete with the best in the world.


This is exactly what Pakistan needs to do. In those days all the strikers used to complain about Australian Coal, Japanese, German Car manfacturers, South Korean TV manufactuers. The truth was it was not their fault. The fault was within UK which could not compet with them.

Today Pakistan can complain about Chinese imporets or open up and join in the race to be best. Out of it will come a new breed of companies and businessmen who will stand o their feet and compete with the world. Or are people worried that Pakistani's can't compete with the world? Yes, in the short term like UK in 1980s it will suffer but from the other end will come a new rejuvenated country and economy. Pakistan needs to grab the Dragon by the tail, learn from it and outrun it.

Has Pakistan got what it takes? I certainly think so.

@Desert Fox @Chinese-Dragon @AndrewJin @Sinopakfriend

Thatcher also did a lot of harm, but your essential point is well put. In India, the same revolution started, but never got finished, due to the bureaucracy, and to the proverbial Indian hesitation in getting to the point.
 
o4YBAFO2ARuAV6stAAKlYWOo9d8210_b.jpg
9787503611551.jpg

These two books have saved China and changed China.
This is a powerful ideological weapon.
It allows China to find its own path of development.
We did not copy the Soviet Union and the western system
Can you elaborate further more on these two books?

Pakistan needs a visionary leadership that can shake up the entire foundations of the economy. Like Deng Xiaoping did, like Thatcher did. And it will be a very painful process, as it always is.
Unfortunately that is what we're lacking currently. It takes a visionary leader to bring about revolutionary changes.
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom