Is Musharaf responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?

[bafxet]

Beside other things, the long term implications of consistently bagging for dialogue and than Indian arrogantly declining to do so has certainly put India on a higher ground and has weakened our position.

Once it was India who use to stand for keeping politics and cultural/sport separate but Pakistan won't listen.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Musharaf is responsible for many things. Kargil fiasco. Loss of Kabul to India. But the present disaster we face with Kashmir can't be placed on Mush's head. The blame for this is 1947. And Quaid-e-Millat Liaquat Khan.

 

[Crusher]

I have reported this post afew days ago---. Why the heck is this post here and not deleted and the poster banned---

@Dubious @The Eagle @waz @WebMaster

You are yourself badmouthing the whole Pakistan Air Force on daily basis but you got "triggered" by one post of mine which is pretty mild and based on truth, I don't understand this hypocrisy from your side. If some poster with very benign post history was complaining about my post that would have made sense but a guy like you who is always after pakistan air force and also military on regular basis is really strange for me and probably for a whole bunch of sane people who read your posts on regular basis. I used to give "like" to your posts but I didn't know that you preach something else but expect something totally different from the rest of the world.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are yourself badmouthing the whole Pakistan Air Force on daily basis but you got "triggered" by one post of mine which is pretty mild and based on truth, I don't understand this hypocrisy from your side. If some poster with very benign post history was complaining about my post that would have made sense but a guy like you who is always after pakistan air force and also military on regular basis is really strange for me and probably for a whole bunch of sane people who read your posts on regular basis. I used to give "like" to your posts but I didn't know that you preach something else but expect something totally different from the rest of the world.

Hi,

Off course I blame the air force general staff of the things they did not do---.

But I would never disgrace my army for laying down their arms in east pakistan.

East pakistan was a lost cause---. You are humiliating and disgracing soldiers who had no reason to continue to fight---. When the command came to lay down their arms---they did---. Many of them did not---and were killed by the enemy---.

Fight for what---for a people who did not want them to be there in the first place---.

They were not cowards but brave men---. They gave whatever was asked from them---.

East Pakistan was a deceitful war imposed on the pak military by political criminals like Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto---he had issues with the army---and he dragged them thru filth and humiliated them and degraded them---.

Soldiers who are sent out to fight also become prisoners of war and that is a part of being in a war---.

 

[Signalian]

@MastanKhan @Signalian

Its also the fault of the Kashmiris, we tried two times to help them, but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war, instead of the Kashmiris always betrayed the Pakistan Army! They now get what they deserve, sound harsh but as you see its the reality and was a question of time!

No offence to Kashmiris, but that's just a part of our history!

1965 Operation Gibralter:

"The local population, however, refused to give any support and in many instances handed over the infiltrators to Indian troops."

View attachment 572890 View attachment 572891


1999 Operation Al-Badre was the last chance for them:


View attachment 572738 View attachment 572739 View attachment 572740
View attachment 572888 View attachment 572889 View attachment 572886

I agree with you fully.

Pakistan has fought 3 wars for Kashmir and Kashmiris. These kashmiris were same people who pointed out Pakistani regulars to Indian Army in this same very month, August 1965. In fact in Septermber 1965, PA then used Armor and Artillery to enter Kashmir, which resulted in a full fledge war. In 1971, Pakistan's 23rd Infantry Div managed to secure a bridgehead to enter Kashmir, but no help from Kashmiris arrived from IOK. After that on their own but still assisted by Pakistan, in 1990's, for almost a decade, PA supported these Kashmiris again. Then in 1999, PA once again went into IOK, but the kashmiris didnt start an expected turmoil in IOK.

Kashmiris in IOK are a thank less lot, they are thank less people who are now paying the price for so many chances that were given to them. Pakistan sacrificed its soldiers in 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999 and even now for Kashmiris, but what did the kashmiris do when Pakistan expected them to stand up ? Nothing.

These very same Kashmiris who are now dying at Indian Army's hands, their forefathers pointed out Pakistani soldiers who had come to assist them in 1965 (Ops Gibraltar) and handed them over to Indian Army. These Kashmiris didn't hold regard for lives for Pakistani soldiers and think that Pakistani soldiers are cannon-fodder for them.

I feel pity on Kashmiris in IOK, but they deserve what they are going through. Pakistani Army has done more than enough for them, its time they do something for themselves. I dont care about Musharraf's involvement since he arrived too late (in 1990's as a brigadier posted in AJK, as well as a chief in 1999) the Kashmir story started in 1948 and by 1965, they could have gained independence.

The whole world is now witnessing what is happening to thankless Indian kashmiris !

Don't you dare.... They've sacrificed everything they had. What more do you want?

View attachment 572743

I do dare mate !

They told Indian Army about locations of Pakistan Army personnel who had come to help them gain Independence.
I feel pity on them but they deserve what they are getting, thats what happens when someone else sacrifices for you but you give a damn !

Tell these kashmiris to pay homage to Indian Army just like they did in 1965, 1971, 1990's and 1999.

If you don't know,don't speak.
1965 you went without homework.
1999 Valley was boiling and armed struggle was on it's peak,what we did you know that.

The homework to test kashmiris if they will side Pakistan Army or Indian Army in 1965? well the result was that Kashmiris sided with indian Army, the same Indian Army who is beating up them every day. Good choice ? you tell me.

in 1999, what help came from inside IOK ?Nada ! Nothing ! kashmiris couldn't even contain IA reinforcements arriving in Kargil, they couldnt even engage BSF effectively, let alone IA regulars.

@blain2 @Signalian

Kashmiris are to be blamed, nobody else.

Sir do you see any chances of conflict in coming days?

Mate, I hope not.

And some fools even rated this post thanks. Ignorance really has no limits....

Read Ops Gibraltar- open your eyes.

Stop this man. You are making it worse.

He is telling the truth.

 

[batmannow]

Beside other things, the long term implications of consistently bagging for dialogue and than Indian arrogantly declining to do so has certainly put India on a higher ground and has weakened our position.

Once it was India who use to stand for keeping politics and cultural/sport separate but Pakistan won't listen.

Pakistan has done best it can and there is no other way around then fight, but cleverly which pakistan with its low resources has done untill now, bt right now pakistan has brought kashmir to UNSC which india never wanted to see, so in a political way pak has won on a short time frame bt after tht if China and Pakistan decided to take Kashmir from India then India won't find anyone supporting it in UN or UNSC accept France which can't do nothing on its alone, so in the end this RSS bug will be trapped humiliated and pushed for talks from all sides it won't happen soon bt it will happen in the end cause of right now no country in the world is saying that what india did was correct, evn indias long time allies like RUSSIA has stop short of indian support because of China?
It ill be a classic gorrila war in making in which heavy weapons will be used, Pakistan with seas of its experiences in Afghanistan against all mighty super powers has learned how to trap a much bigger power in a gorilla war and it is about to put tht on india, if USSR, and USA can't stand in Afghanistan the. I'm sure india has to run away from kashmir if not India will suffer with huge economic impact cause it has a economy unlike Pakistan which always lived on black economy?

 

[Inception-06]

I agree with you fully.

Pakistan has fought 3 wars for Kashmir and Kashmiris. These kashmiris were same people who pointed out Pakistani regulars to Indian Army in this same very month, August 1965. In fact in Septermber 1965, PA then used Armor and Artillery to enter Kashmir, which resulted in a full fledge war. In 1971, Pakistan's 23rd Infantry Div managed to secure a bridgehead to enter Kashmir, but no help from Kashmiris arrived from IOK. After that on their own but still assisted by Pakistan, in 1990's, for almost a decade, PA supported these Kashmiris again. Then in 1999, PA once again went into IOK, but the kashmiris didnt start an expected turmoil in IOK.

Kashmiris in IOK are a thank less lot, they are thank less people who are now paying the price for so many chances that were given to them. Pakistan sacrificed its soldiers in 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999 and even now for Kashmiris, but what did the kashmiris do when Pakistan expected them to stand up ? Nothing.

These very same Kashmiris who are now dying at Indian Army's hands, their forefathers pointed out Pakistani soldiers who had come to assist them in 1965 (Ops Gibraltar) and handed them over to Indian Army. These Kashmiris didn't hold regard for lives for Pakistani soldiers and think that Pakistani soldiers are cannon-fodder for them.

I feel pity on Kashmiris in IOK, but they deserve what they are going through. Pakistani Army has done more than enough for them, its time they do something for themselves. I dont care about Musharraf's involvement since he arrived too late (in 1990's as a brigadier posted in AJK, as well as a chief in 1999) the Kashmir story started in 1948 and by 1965, they could have gained independence.

The whole world is now witnessing what is happening to thankless Indian kashmiris !


I do dare mate !

They told Indian Army about locations of Pakistan Army personnel who had come to help them gain Independence.
I feel pity on them but they deserve what they are getting, thats what happens when someone else sacrifices for you but you give a damn !

Tell these kashmiris to pay homage to Indian Army just like they did in 1965, 1971, 1990's and 1999.




The homework to test kashmiris if they will side Pakistan Army or Indian Army in 1965? well the result was that Kashmiris sided with indian Army, the same Indian Army who is beating up them every day. Good choice ? you tell me.

in 1999, what help came from inside IOK ?Nada ! Nothing ! kashmiris couldn't even contain IA reinforcements arriving in Kargil, they couldnt even engage BSF effectively, let alone IA regulars.


Kashmiris are to be blamed, nobody else.


Mate, I hope not.


Read Ops Gibraltar- open your eyes.

Captain Carnal sher Khan resisted for weeks with just handfull of men where was the Kashmiri support (by the way I did finde years ago since weeks of research of all available media a picture of his coffin which was handed over to Pakistani 1999...) and @Signalian I also hope that our Soldiers had not sufferd long as POW after 1965 war I mean the Ghazi Force !

 

[Signalian]

You know nothing about me or what I am competent of.
You think you are competent? So tell me do you include in that the failures of the traitor musharraf?

you want to blame Musharraf ? Be my guest.

But let me tell you some unbiased facts, coz i dont care about Musharraf.

End of 1980's, Musharraf planned SSG assaults into Kashmir as well as siachen, this was after Brig T.M Had died, some Ops even when he was alive.
1990's Musharraf put more liberation plans for Kashmir infront of B-Bhutto, the then PM, she refused. Musharraf was Brig then.
1997-1998, Musharraf was commanding 1 Corps, with HQ in Mangla over looking Kashmir, He again kept plans infront of NS, who agreed.

No other commander in the history of Pakistan has followed up Kashmir war, only Musharraf did, as Lt Col, then as Brigadier, then as Maj General, then as Lt General and then as COAS.

I want to hear one name of a single officer who rose to the rank of General and followed up Kashmor cause ...

1 NAME ?

Without a doubt he almost surrendered kashmir

It is because of people like you, wanting to make a scapegoat of someone for the blaming Kashmir still in India's hands.

I am not a fan of Musharraf, but he is the only officer to reach general staff who was always involved in kashmir conflict and kept putting plans infront of the Prime Ministers of Pakistan since end of 1980's. Blame him all you want, no other Pakistani Army officer took interest in liberation of Kashmir as much as he did.

No matter what people say/think of him. Facts are facts, he is responsible for the ill orchestrated Kargil war debacle for Pakistan which turned the International community opinion against Pakistan vis a vis Kashmir issue.

Then he came to power in Pakistan and pretty much reversed all the gains we had made in Kashmir. Got all cozy with India and allowed India to crush the Jihad in Kashmir by bowing to their demands and tied the hands of all the Freedom fighters who were fighting in IOK through Pakistan's help. The armed struggle in Kashmir was at its peak back then. He even allowed India to build the fence along the LOC and DID NOTHING for the Kashmiri struggle. All the gains made in IOK were lost just cause of him and India has now improved their infrastructure along LOC and inside IOK so much that it is almost impossible for Pakistan to raise the momentum of any armed struggle.


What are your thoughts on this??

Kashmiris themselves are responsible and paying the price today. No one else is responsible. Pakistan Army has done more than enough since 1948. Open a history book if u can.

 

[maxpayne]

According.to.Gen Aziz, said.meeting was not.related to.kargil

Nawaz chicken out .... He was PM and attend the presentation

 

[HAIDER]

According.to.Gen Aziz, said.meeting was not.related to.kargil

He is not telling the truth. I have first hand information about Musharraf presentation to Nawaz.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistan's position is at current scenario because we have shown patience however these scenes indicate clearly at least to me that Pakistan Must declare war against India

I won't criticize Musharaf Sahib , as he kept Indian Dogs in check he chained them and pulled the chain when he wanted

 

[Sine Nomine]

The homework to test kashmiris if they will side Pakistan Army or Indian Army in 1965? well the result was that Kashmiris sided with indian Army, the same Indian Army who is beating up them every day. Good choice ? you tell me.

Till 1987 Sheikh family was managing kashmir better then Delhi.There was no deployment of IA & Para in mass numbers till 1989.It was only after 1987 we started homework and temperature in valley turned favourable for armed struggle after mass rigging of elections in 1987.
It was only in 1989 when alleged assassinations of the Indian spies and political collaborators by JKLF happened. During course of next six months more than a hundred officials were killed to paralyse government's administrative and intelligence apparatus.
Sitution in kashmir wasn't like today or even that of any day in 1990 before 1987.Sitution in our favour only went after 1987.If IA never would have shown it's "Hindu hate for Muslim"after active deployment for COIN in 1990's Kashmir would have been calmed after Mushi agreed what @Psychic has said.

in 1999, what help came from inside IOK ?Nada ! Nothing ! kashmiris couldn't even contain IA reinforcements arriving in Kargil, they couldnt even engage BSF effectively, let alone IA regulars.

Kargil is Shia majority area, who were in hand and gloves with Bharat until Bharat stopped their Muharram procession in 2009 and delt them heavy handed.
You should ponder on log issues for groups in there.They don't have adequate arsenal for such ops.They still had kept J&k warm nevertheless.
We should rethink our policy for J&K and must use our options simply by subtracting Bharati & World response.
On lighter note Kashmiris themselves were well divided till 2019.There were three factions:-
1-Pro Bharat
2-Pro Pakistan
3-Pro Independence.
Thanks to BJP they have finally brought all of them on one page.

I am not a fan of Musharraf, but he is the only officer to reach general staff who was always involved in kashmir conflict and kept putting plans infront of the Prime Ministers of Pakistan since end of 1980's. Blame him all you want, no other Pakistani Army officer took interest in liberation of Kashmir as much as he did.

They day he walked into PM house as other then COAS his career as a soldier was finished.

 

[Psychic]

Till 1987 Sheikh family was managing kashmir better then Delhi.There was no deployment of IA & Para in mass numbers till 1989.It was only after 1987 we started homework and temperature in valley turned favourable for armed struggle after mass rigging of elections in 1987.
It was only in 1989 when alleged assassinations of the Indian spies and political collaborators by JKLF happened. During course of next six months more than a hundred officials were killed to paralyse government's administrative and intelligence apparatus.
Sitution in kashmir wasn't like today or even that of any day in 1990 before 1987.Sitution in our favour only went after 1987.If IA never would have shown it's "Hindu hate for Muslim"after active deployment for COIN in 1990's Kashmir would have been calmed after Mushi agreed what @Psychic has said.

Kargil is Shia majority area, who were in hand and gloves with Bharat until Bharat stopped their Muharram procession in 2009 and delt them heavy handed.
You should ponder on log issues for groups in there.They don't have adequate arsenal for such ops.They still had kept J&k warm nevertheless.
We should rethink our policy for J&K and must use our options simply by subtracting Bharati & World response.
On lighter note Kashmiris themselves were well divided till 2019.There were three factions:-
1-Pro Bharat
2-Pro Pakistan
3-Pro Independence.
Thanks to BJP they have finally brought all of them on one page.


They day he walked into PM house as other then COAS his career as a soldier was finished.

People think that revolting in Kashmir is easy.

Then there are ridiculous comparisons with Afghanistan.

Ignoring the fact that the ground realities of Kashmir are different.

 

[imadul]

Must we blame somebody for whatever is wrong with our policies? Don’t you think it is about time we stop the blame game and face the ground realities? Let me be blunt:

Pakistan is neither strong enough nor likely to so in the near future to take Kashmir by force of arms. At this moment in time, Pakistan’s economy cannot sustain a full-fledged war with India for more than a couple weeks (even if that!).

Indian economy is far larger than Pakistan and India is a bigger trading partner for nearly all the major countries of the world including the Muslim world. This includes Turkey; total Pakistan /Turkey annual trade volume is barely $600-million whereas India / Turkey trade volume is about $8-billion. Therefore, Lip Service aside; when it comes to the crunch, very few countries would support Pakistan against India in crucial matters.

India is fully aware of these facts. Hence a bigoted person like Modi will do whatever he likes in Kashmir and get away with it.

Modi had the removal of Kashmir special status in his election manifesto; Kargil or no Kargil he would have carried it out. Why blame Musharraf or anyone else?

Totally pointless to go into blame game.
Mushi had had lots of responsibility. Ayub was main when he did not take advantage of sino-indian war of 62. Kashmir was in Pak lap like ripe fruit.

But this is all academic now. Critical thing is to stop atrocities in Kashmir right now.

 

[Sine Nomine]

People think that revolting in Kashmir is easy.

Then there are ridiculous comparisons with Afghanistan.

Ignoring the fact that the ground realities of Kashmir are different.

Log issues are more then one can think.