Is Musharaf responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?

[Humble Analyst]

No matter what people say/think of him. Facts are facts, he is responsible for the ill orchestrated Kargil war debacle for Pakistan which turned the International community opinion against Pakistan vis a vis Kashmir issue.

Then he came to power in Pakistan and pretty much reversed all the gains we had made in Kashmir. Got all cozy with India and allowed India to crush the Jihad in Kashmir by bowing to their demands and tied the hands of all the Freedom fighters who were fighting in IOK through Pakistan's help. The armed struggle in Kashmir was at its peak back then. He even allowed India to build the fence along the LOC and DID NOTHING for the Kashmiri struggle. All the gains made in IOK were lost just cause of him and India has now improved their infrastructure along LOC and inside IOK so much that it is almost impossible for Pakistan to raise the momentum of any armed struggle.


What are your thoughts on this??

Our threads are more who made the situation bad was it Zia Musharaf or Bhutto.
It will be good to have threads with solutions.

 

[mingle]

What about NS Govt who didn't have FM for 4yrs???

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

No matter what people say/think of him. Facts are facts, he is responsible for the ill orchestrated Kargil war debacle for Pakistan which turned the International community opinion against Pakistan vis a vis Kashmir issue.

And here people are still calling for Kargil type operation after todays events. So confuse this nation is.

 

[Arsalan 345]

Stop blaming Musharraf.musharraf showed us aggressive path.he is a patriotic person.this is all due to defensive policies.every prime minister begged for peace.even imran Khan policy is defensive.sometimes leaders put your army in defensive mood.army is behaving like a defensive force.wrong tactics,wrong inductions and basically no air defense systems.we are screwed.we are corrupt.we have failed and we have no money to fight a war.stop behaving like master of ummah.enough ummah chummah.we must build our own house first.forget rohingya,xinjiang,Bangladesh,Kashmir and syria Muslims.work hard like indians.make pakistan strong and give proper weapons and money to army and start war.

 

[Crusher]

No matter what people say/think of him. Facts are facts, he is responsible for the ill orchestrated Kargil war debacle for Pakistan which turned the International community opinion against Pakistan vis a vis Kashmir issue.

Then he came to power in Pakistan and pretty much reversed all the gains we had made in Kashmir. Got all cozy with India and allowed India to crush the Jihad in Kashmir by bowing to their demands and tied the hands of all the Freedom fighters who were fighting in IOK through Pakistan's help. The armed struggle in Kashmir was at its peak back then. He even allowed India to build the fence along the LOC and DID NOTHING for the Kashmiri struggle. All the gains made in IOK were lost just cause of him and India has now improved their infrastructure along LOC and inside IOK so much that it is almost impossible for Pakistan to raise the momentum of any armed struggle.


What are your thoughts on this??

I still remember that black day in 2003 or 2004 when this guy Musharraf made some deal with then indian prime minister to "stop giving any kind of support" to insurgents in Kashmir. I was very angry on that day that how a person who was born in "nehar wali haveli delhi india" is making such a "decision" on behalf of "Pakistan" and "Pakistanis", who gave mushi the delhi boy the "right" to make such a policy shift on behalf of Pakistan.

 

[tkmd]

Musharraf did major damage with Kargil. Indians were sleeping before that. But overall the picture has been bad since the 70s. Be it the dictators or the civilians, our nation has failed to build a solvent state that can fund a credible offense. Does anyone here think for a second that if we had the economic might of South Korea we couldn't remind these monkey worshipping kanjars what Aurangzeb did to their ancestors?

I dont like a lot of what PTI says or does but I am praying day and night for our current govt to finally right the ship of the state and give us a nation that can punch these fascists apes back into the hole they have crawled out of.

 

[SQ8]

He is, due to his hara kiri of Kargil.

 

[ejaz007]

Nawaz chicken out .... He was PM and chief of armed forces.

This debate is not for public forum. Every one has his/her own opinion who chickened out.

President is the head of armed forces.

 

[Psychic]

1965 you went without homework.

While what you have said is true, it is also true that despite lack of "home work" out of 11 or so liberation forces, only the one at Rajouri was successful, Poonch saw minor success, the remaining 9 task forces were wiped out thanks to the back-stabbing of citizens of IOK.

Many among them saw liberators from AJK and SSG as foreigners; among their leaders, total independence was preferred over Pakistan.

Then the Ikhwanis who back-stabbed their own Mujahideen brothers and countrymen at the behest of Indian intel agencies were also Kashmiri locals. They sold out their own brothers for money, politics and power---their betrayal was of great significance since these turn-coats knew about the tactics, routes, bases and affiliates of Mujahideen.

Pakistani state and Musharraf also did a great deal of damage to Kashmir by choking Mujahideen supplies and getting fooled by India. He succumbed to pressure and relieved pressure from Indian occupiers. Fencing of LOC and crackdown on Mujahideen camps in Pakistan made only the Indians happy and served no interest of ours.

@Inception-06 I thanked both posts because both had some merit.

but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war

Kargil was a disaster.

Our soldiers were starved, shelled, bombed, isolated and killed.

Posts started falling, the remaining were cut-off.

PAF thanks to lack of BVR couldn't provide air cover.

Nawaz chicken out .... He was PM and chief of armed forces.

Nawaz was scapegoated.

That turned him into an army-hater as well.

 

[Crusher]

While what you have said is true, it is also true that despite lack of "home work" out of 11 or so liberation forces, only the one at Rajouri was successful, Poonch saw minor success, the remaining 9 task forces were wiped out thanks to the back-stabbing of citizens of IOK.

Many among them saw liberators from AJK and SSG as foreigners; among their leaders, total independence was preferred over Pakistan.

Then the Ikhwanis who back-stabbed their own Mujahideen brothers and countrymen at the behest of Indian intel agencies were also Kashmiri locals. They sold out their own brothers for money, politics and power---their betrayal was of great significance since these turn-coats knew about the tactics, routes, bases and affiliates of Mujahideen.

Pakistani state and Musharraf also did a great deal of damage to Kashmir by choking Mujahideen supplies and getting fooled by India. He succumbed to pressure and relieved pressure from Indian occupiers. Fencing of LOC and crackdown on Mujahideen camps in Pakistan made only the Indians happy and served no interest of ours.

@Inception-06 I thanked both posts because both had some merit.


Kargil was a disaster.

Our soldiers were starved, shelled, bombed, isolated and killed.

Posts started falling, the remaining were cut-off.

PAF thanks to lack of BVR couldn't provide air cover.

The reason behind this is that unlike Punjabis and muslims of indian origin in general, the Kashmiris are very proud of their identity/race as Kashmiri, it is central to their existence for centuries probably even thousands of years because Kashmir and Kashmiris as race are mentioned by both ancient Greek historians as well as by indian hindus in their Mahabharat. In this regard they are more like Pashtuns, the Kashmiris (the original ones of Srinagar valley) take their "Kashmiri race" very seriously like Pashtuns or Baloch in Pakistan. They don't like to be "dictated" by others in the name of "islam" that is where they are different than Pashtuns who are easily swayed in the name of "islam". This is also the main reason why they behave so differently than so-called "indian muslims" which for Kashmiri muslims are as alien as "indian hindus" or "indian sikhs" because in their eyes they are all "indian".

 

[Psychic]

7

The reason behind this is that unlike Punjabis and muslims of indian origin in general, the Kashmiris are very proud of their identity as Kashmiri, it is central to their existence. In this regard they are more like Pashtuns, the Kashmiris (the original ones of Srinagar valley) take their "Kashmiri race" very seriously like Pashtuns or Baloch in Pakistan. They don't like to be "dictated" by others in the name of "islam" that is where they are differnt than Pashtuns who are easily swayed in the name of "islam".

Many from their Kashmir, don't even consider our Kashmiris as true Kashmiris since most of our Kashmiri culture and language is closer to Punjabi than theirs.

Having said that, the realization among Kashmiris today that Pakistan should've been the choice instead of independence or India is much stronger now than it was ever in the past.

Now as we speak, efforts are being made by both Pakistan and India at deep state level to turn LOC into a permanent border and shelve this issue forever.
Kashmiris will now pay the ultimate price, they will be standing alone with no one to back them. They will helplessly watch themselves being turned into a minority in their own region.

 

[Crusher]

Kashmiris will now pay the ultimate price, they will be standing alone with no one to back them. They will helplessly watch themselves being turned into a minority in their own region.

I don't think so, Kashmir valley is one the most densely populated area in that part of the world. The areas which will be tempered by indians would be muslim majority areas outside of Kashmir valley in Chenab valley which fall under Jammu division, these include Poonch, Rajauri, Kishtwar and Parts of Reasi and Bhadarwa districts, they are all mountainous and sparsely populated areas and Muslims in those areas are same as the ones in Pakistani areas of Azad Kashmir except Kishtwar and Bhadarwah where muslims are of Kashmiri ancestry from the valley and speak the same Kashmiri language of the valley.

 

[Psychic]

I don't think so, Kashmir valley is one the most densely populated area in that part of the world. The areas which will be tempered by indians would be muslim majority areas outside of Kashmir valley in Chenab valley which fall under Jammu division, these include Poonch, Rajauri, Kishtwar and Parts of Reasi and Bhadarwa districts, they are all mountainous and sparsely populated areas and Muslims in those areas are same as the ones in Pakistani areas of Kashmir except Kishtwar and Bhadarwah where muslims are of Kashmiri ancestry.

It doesn't take much to massacre some and make others flee.

 

[Signalian]

@MastanKhan @Signalian

Its also the fault of the Kashmiris, we tried two times to help them, but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war, instead of the Kashmiris always betrayed the Pakistan Army! They now get what they deserve, sound harsh but as you see its the reality and was a question of time!


1999 was the last chance for them:


View attachment 572738 View attachment 572739 View attachment 572740

you are back and thats what matters

 

[Reichsmarschall]

you are back and thats what matters

Sir do you see any chances of conflict in coming days?