Is a Pro-Active Germany the best for Europe

[Aepsilons]

Still, it is the US who controls the western world, not the EU.

The United States does not "Control" anything in Western Europe. The US and Western Europe have cultural , political and economic coalescence due to the shear bonds between them. Europe is not an American 'colony', which many detractors would say or claim. Their union and alliance is one that has been formed through blood, toil, sweat. From fighting a common foe in National Socialism in the 40s and then Communism all throughout the Cold War.

 

[Desert Fox]

They'd need to return conscription to achieve the amount of recruits needed for that build up, in Germany and several other EU states some politicians and generals are calling for a return of conscription.

But who are they going to conscript when most of their population is aging??

Are they going to conscript Muslim immigrants??

Economically speaking, the European Economy is the largest in the entire world. Bar none.

Economy of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After WW2, only to powers dictated European politics; America and the Soviet Union (until it collapsed).

Today its still America which dominates the NATO alliance and even the E.U. despite not being a member of the latter.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The United States does not "Control" anything in Western Europe. The US and Western Europe have cultural , political and economic coalescence due to the shear bonds between them. Europe is not an American 'colony', which many detractors would say or claim. Their union and alliance is one that has been formed through blood, toil, sweat. From fighting a common foe in National Socialism in the 40s and then Communism all throughout the Cold War.

Could you stop deceiving yourself? Even the EU knows that the US playing the fire in Ukraine is against their interests, but what they can do so far? Only to keep obeying the US rather than doing something to stop this foolishness.

 

[Aepsilons]

Could you stop deceiving yourself? Even the EU knows that the US playing the fire in Ukraine is against their interests, but what they can do so far? Only to keep obeying the US rather than doing something to stop this foolishness.

Please, read more.

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | The EU and human rights

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | The EU's policy on Human Rights Defenders

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Please, read more.

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | The EU and human rights

European Union - EEAS (European External Action Service) | The EU's policy on Human Rights Defenders

No matter how you are in denial, the US controls over its allies including the EU members and Japan.

It is a fact, you cannot refute that.

Even Japan has its sovereignty on the paper, but we know what is the reality.

 

[mike2000]

The modern warfare is not only about the tanks.

When there is a gain, then there will be a sacrifice.

To sacrifice your living standard and the civilian quality just for the re-armament is not worthy.

Since you are not USA, what is the point to challenge those great powers like Russia and China?

]ahahahaha...LMAO. You seem to overestimate yourself too much , dont you? Challenge great powers like China? lool
Do you even know that technologically, China and even Russia lags far behind Germany? Dude dont boast too much, China still has a long way to go before she can start boasting to be honest.

Germany has the industrial and technological might to create a formidable military industrial complex as advanced as the U.S Even today with her limited/restrictive military constitution/public wariness of anything military they still produce the best weapons in the world, better in some cases than even American ones(im not even talking about Chinese ones.lol). Its only the political and public will that impede Germany from acting like a normal country and rearming itself as a great power, since they have all it takes to do so in a quick notice unlike other developing countries who still lag the tech, but got cash.. Had they not lost the war, then things today would have been totally different.

To put things into perspective, if Germany had Chinas size/population/resources/landmass etc then even the U.S will lag behind Germany today believe me. So if anything, China is still lagging wayyyy behind what it should be. So stop the great power superpower stuff bro.

 

[Aepsilons]

After WW2, only to powers dictated European politics; America and the Soviet Union (until it collapsed).

Today its still America which dominates the NATO alliance and even the E.U. despite not being a member of the latter.

During the Cold War, yes, of course. However after the collapse of the USSR and the independence of many European states that were once part of the Soviet Establishment, many of these states have now linked itself with the European Union and its military alliance, NATO. Due to collapse of the USSR and the eventual economic meltdown of Russia, it no longer is considered a major economic force that can influence Europe sans energy supplier. Europe (Western) has major trade contracts with the United States (a nation with a GDP OF $17.25 Trillion) and due to the strong intergovernmentalism links between Washington and all over Europe thus ensures a robust economic , political cooperation between the two (EU and US). They have plethora of overlapping interests and security issues and thus manifests in a pseudo agreement regarding foreign threats. Don't get me wrong tho, EU member states don't regularly agree with Washington and vice versa, but like any inter-organizational dynamic, compromise is a necessity in realizing similar goals.

Overall I would just emphasize the breadth of EU-US economic integration, social programs and agendas as well as similar political interests --- as the basis for their cooperation.

@Desert Fox , the total bilateral trade between the United States and the European Union is close to $700 Billion per annum. That is immense and a clear manifestation of the depth and breadth of the interconnectedness between the two. Please refer:

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c0003.html



Best,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[That Guy]

Germany is the main power in the EU currently, whatever they do will have a major impact across the globe. If Germany decides to reinvigorate it's armed forces, it could very easily become a global power once again; I don't think it wants to though, and it's doing just fine without such a status. Similar to Japan, there is much local hostility to it's military forces gaining in size and strength (keeping in mind the nation's history), as the thought is that it would create unneeded rivalry with allied nations such as the UK and France, and to a lesser extent, the US. This could also potentially trigger an arms race with Russia, which considers Germany to be it's main rival in Europe.

 

[Aepsilons]

]ahahahaha...LMAO. You seem to overestimate yourself too much , dont you? Challenge great powers like China? lool
Do you even know that technologically, China and even Russia lags far behind Germany? Dude dont boast too much, China still has a long way to go before she can start boasting to be honest.

Germany has the industrial and technological might to create a formidable military industrial complex as advanced as the U.S Even today with her limited/restrictive military constitution/public wariness of anything military they still produce the best weapons in the world, better in some cases than even American ones(im not even talking about Chinese ones.lol). Its only the political and public will that impede Germany from acting like a normal country and rearming itself as a great power, since they have all it takes to do so in a quick notice unlike other developing countries who still lag the tech, but got cash.. Had they not lost the war, then things today would have been totally different.

To put things into perspective, if Germany had Chinas size/population/resources/landmass etc then even the U.S will lag behind Germany today believe me. So if anything, China is still lagging wayyyy behind what it should be. So stop the great power superpower stuff bro.

It is fool's errand to try to argue against the German industrial capability and shear ingenuity. Let alone the advanced living standards they have. I have no doubt if Germany does decide to re-arm completely and take up a pro-active foreign policy to secure German and the wider EU interests, she will do so responsibly and comprehensively. I even support Germany becoming a nuclear power.

 

[Desert Fox]

]ahahahaha...LMAO. You seem to overestimate yourself too much , dont you? Challenge great powers like China? lool
Do you even know that technologically, China and even Russia lags far behind Germany? Dude dont boast too much, China still has a long way to go before she can start boasting to be honest.

Germany has the industrial and technological might to create a formidable military industrial complex as advanced as the U.S Even today with her limited/restrictive military constitution/public wariness of anything military they still produce the best weapons in the world, better in some cases than even American ones(im not even talking about Chinese ones.lol). Its only the political and public will that impede Germany from acting like a normal country and rearming itself as a great power, since they have all it takes to do so in a quick notice unlike other developing countries who still lag the tech, but got cash.. Had they not lost the war, then things today would have been totally different.

To put things into perspective, if Germany had Chinas size/population/resources/landmass etc then even the U.S will lag behind Germany today believe me. So if anything, China is still lagging wayyyy behind what it should be. So stop the great power superpower stuff bro.

One question though:

If Germany were to began rearming again who would they conscript into the military if most of their native population is aging (like the rest of European countries) and most Germans are the hippy pacifist types and for them anything militaristic automatically equals Nazism??

Are they going to conscript Muslim immigrants, who for the most part are not loyal to their host countries??

To join a military and to be willing to fight for your nation there has to be a very strong nationalistic spirit amongst the general population, particularly the male segment of the population. However, Germans are discouraged from Nationalism because they are taught "Nationalism = Nazism". Any kind of masculine trait is looked down upon and discouraged by the politically correct atmosphere of Western societies (the Gov.t plays a big role in promoting this political correctness).

So, again, who would be joining German military forces in large numbers? Certainly not the Muslims. And most likely not the aging male population and perhaps not even the younger males either since nationalism is discouraged and all their lives they have been taught to hate themselves because Hitler "gassed 6 million" Jews.


77% Arabs would fight for their countries, Only 25% of Western Europeans would for theirs- Gallup Poll

Three-quarters of British people would refuse to fight for their country


Would like the input of @Nihonjin1051 @Gabriel92 and @flamer84 as well as any other European or German (if there are any Germans on this forum).

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

]ahahahaha...LMAO. You seem to overestimate yourself too much , dont you? Challenge great powers like China? lool
Do you even know that technologically, China and even Russia lags far behind Germany? Dude dont boast too much, China still has a long way to go before she can start boasting to be honest.

Germany has the industrial and technological might to create a formidable military industrial complex as advanced as the U.S Even today with her limited/restrictive military constitution/public wariness of anything military they still produce the best weapons in the world, better in some cases than even American ones(im not even talking about Chinese ones.lol). Its only the political and public will that impede Germany from acting like a normal country and rearming itself as a great power, since they have all it takes to do so in a quick notice unlike other developing countries who still lag the tech, but got cash.. Had they not lost the war, then things today would have been totally different.

To put things into perspective, if Germany had Chinas size/population/resources/landmass etc then even the U.S will lag behind Germany today believe me. So if anything, China is still lagging wayyyy behind what it should be. So stop the great power superpower stuff bro.

You cannot simply make the assumption about 'how Germany is going to be if it has the size of China', because this is impossible.

I do respect Germany's civilian technologies and their scientific contribution, but they lack the population and landmass to become a modern day superpower.

China's industrial capability is even above that of the US, and you still think we are not a great power?

Which country in the history has exceeded the US in the production capability except China?

 

[Desert Fox]

During the Cold War, yes, of course. However after the collapse of the USSR and the independence of many European states that were once part of the Soviet Establishment, many of these states have now linked itself with the European Union and its military alliance, NATO. Due to collapse of the USSR and the eventual economic meltdown of Russia, it no longer is considered a major economic force that can influence Europe sans energy supplier. Europe (Western) has major trade contracts with the United States (a nation with a GDP OF $17.25 Trillion) and due to the strong intergovernmentalism links between Washington and all over Europe thus ensures a robust economic , political cooperation between the two (EU and US). They have plethora of overlapping interests and security issues and thus manifests in a pseudo agreement regarding foreign threats. Don't get me wrong tho, EU member states don't regularly agree with Washington and vice versa, but like any inter-organizational dynamic, compromise is a necessity in realizing similar goals.

Overall I would just emphasize the breadth of EU-US economic integration, social programs and agendas as well as similar political interests --- as the basis for their cooperation.

@Desert Fox , the total bilateral trade between the United States and the European Union is close to $700 Billion per annum. That is immense and a clear manifestation of the depth and breadth of the interconnectedness between the two. Please refer:

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c0003.html



Best,
@Nihonjin1051

But you have to agree that Europe lost its political and military influence over the world after the fratricidal WW2. Britain had to give up its colonial territories all over the world in exchange for American assistance against Germany.

Britain, which was the sole naval power of Europe, and declared war on Germany over Polish territorial integrity, ended up losing its entire empire meanwhile Poland went from Nazi occupation to Soviet occupation.

After WW2, America mostly influenced European strategic affairs. Without American economic and military assistance Western Europe would have been raped by Stalin and his Red Army. The Soviets could invade and occupy a vast territory like Manchuria (which was a little smaller than Western Europe) within a month they could have done the same to Western Europe.

Britain and France had to sell off/abandon their territories for American assistance, which was more crucial to them than overseas colonies and they owed a massive debt to America for the financial and military aid it provided them during their fratricidal war against Germany over Poland (even though Poland was never liberated, its simply came under Soviet occupation).

To this day Nato has to join American wars, even if these wars are contrary to the interests of the Nato member countries.

 

[Aepsilons]

One question though:

If Germany were to began rearming again who would they conscript into the military if most of their native population is aging (like the rest of European countries) and most Germans are the hippy pacifist types and for them anything militaristic automatically equals Nazism??

Are they going to conscript Muslim immigrants, who for the most part are not loyal to their host countries??

To join a military and to be willing to fight for your nation there has to be a very strong nationalistic spirit amongst the general population, particularly the male segment of the population. However, Germans are discouraged from Nationalism because they are taught "Nationalism = Nazism". Any kind of masculine trait is looked down upon and discouraged by the politically correct atmosphere of Western societies (the Gov.t plays a big role in promoting this political correctness).

So, again, who would be joining German military forces in large numbers? Certainly not the Muslims. And most likely not the aging male population and perhaps not even the younger males either since nationalism is discouraged and all their lives they have been taught to hate themselves because Hitler "gassed 6 million" Jews.


77% Arabs would fight for their countries, Only 25% of Western Europeans would for theirs- Gallup Poll

Three-quarters of British people would refuse to fight for their country


Would like the input of @Nihonjin1051 @Gabriel92 and @flamer84 as well as any other European or German (if there are any Germans on this forum).

I don't think conscription would be good, a volunteer-based armed forces should be sought for Germany. Germany has a lot of laws that clearly prevent freedom of speech for the sake of not offending a particular group, such laws do not exist in the United States, Japan, Canada, the UK, France et cetera. An example of these so called 'anti discrimination laws' is the Allgemeines Gleichbehandlungsgesetz or otherwise known as the ASG. Etiology of these sets of laws and other anti-discrimination laws that were enacted post WWII is made on the basis that Germany should not persecute any minority group as it did during the war. For me, I believe that Germany and the German people have already paid for their mistakes in great World War II and maintaining these , clearly inhibitive legal promulgations, perpetuate Germany and the German people in this sense of guilt psychology.

They should remove these restrictive anti-discrmination laws, which for all intents and purposes, prevent the German people from expressing their God-given right to voice their points of views for the sake of political correctness. Second, the German government should encourage a strong military culture, a strong German Nationalism as well as a strong European Nationalism. Afterall, Indian Nationalism is encouraged in India, Chinese Nationalism is encouraged in China, Korean Nationalism is encouraged in Korea, American Nationalism is encouraged in America, Canadian Nationalism is encouraged in Canada, Japanese Nationalism is encouraged in Japan et cetera, whereas in Germany , there is an unfair correlation with German Nationalism with Nazism. This is wrong , period.

Germany, as a major economic engine of Europe, should increase their defense expenditure from 1.2% to at least 2.0% of their GDP, to a respectable $72 Billion USD per annum. And to adjudicate this process, they should develop a Military Enlistment Campaign , similar to the ones the United States has. Increasing the Bundeswehr's capabilities is a must, especially the German Navy: a Carrier Strike Group is a must, production of more frigates / destroyers, as well as increasing its air capabilities, production and deployment of anti ballistic missile capabilities , as well as increasing its mechanized infantry is a necessity.

So, again, who would be joining German military forces in large numbers? Certainly not the Muslims. And most likely not the aging male population and perhaps not even the younger males either since nationalism is discouraged and all their lives they have been taught to hate themselves because Hitler "gassed 6 million" Jews.

Germans of various ethnic lines, religious backgrounds should be encouraged to join the Armed Forces. And this goes back to the essence of German National Pride, irrespective of race, ethnic or religious background.

But you have to agree that Europe lost its political and military influence over the world after the fratricidal WW2. Britain had to give up its colonial territories all over the world in exchange for American assistance against Germany.

Britain, which was the sole naval power of Europe, and declared war on Germany over Polish territorial integrity, ended up losing its entire empire meanwhile Poland went from Nazi occupation to Soviet occupation.

After WW2, America mostly influenced European strategic affairs. Without American economic and military assistance Western Europe would have been raped by Stalin and his Red Army. The Soviets could invade and occupy a vast territory like Manchuria (which is the equivalent size of Western Europe) within a month they could have done the same to Western Europe.

Britain and France had to sell off/abandon their territories for American assistance, which was more crucial to them than overseas colonies and they owed a massive debt to America for the financial and military aid it provided them during their fratricidal war against Germany over Poland (even though Poland was never liberated, its simply came under Soviet occupation).

To this day Nato has to join American wars, even if these wars are contrary to the interests of the Nato member countries.

Agreed. The War in Europe in WWII was the very reason the Great European Powers lost their overseas colonies and influence; British Empire, French Empire, Dutch Empire, Belgium, Italy.

 

[Vassnti]

The question should be proactive with what? Economically and politically Germany is a power but it seems to lack the military ability to project that power.

"With public opinion still firmly against a major new role for the German military in overseas deployments, doubts are also surfacing about the vows of German leaders to ratchet up Berlin’s profile on the world stage, at least when it comes to military operations. “I think in Germany there is a difference between our level of ambition, what is being articulated at all political levels, and our actual capabilities,” said Patrick Keller, coordinator for security policy at Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung, a Berlin thinktank associated with chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats. “This clearly shows to us that we cannot live up to our ambitions at this very moment.”

German military faces a major challenge from disrepair | World news | The Guardian

That said defending Germany from agression would be a very different matter. The ra ra Russia crowd that seem to think the T-90's would be in Berlin 72 hours after Putin dropped the flag are in for a suprise.

 

[flamer84]

The two world wars cost Germany million lives and more than a third of its pre 1914 land area. The allies in 1945 destroyed all vestiges of militarism to ensure that Germany would no longer pose any threat to the rest of Europe. In the circumstances I respect modern Germany's right to its non militaristic culture but considering the current threats that Europe faces,they should make a larger financial contribution to NATO and their army ! (using broomsticks in an exercise...),They should participate in operations with their allies,actually,it is France that is acting the most in Europe,nobody helps us,financially etc... where are the British ? Where are the German ? We should be united and fight all threats against the EU,because if you don't fight them outside our territories,you'll have soon to fight them in your territory.
This time Germany has has the resources, technology, manufacturing ability to build one of the the most powerful militaries on earth. The only thing they lack is the will....

I am pretty much divided on this.On one hand i am pro a strong Germany but can't see anything good from it with its current politicians .As we saw from the recent visit of tweetle de and tweetle dum to Minsk (Francois the socialist and Angela the feminist ) they won't hesitate to serve Eastern Europe on a platter to Moscow again for their interests.I am pretty much tired of having my future exchanged for others peace of mind.

Personally i am in favour for a strong EU,both militarily and economic but not the current EU.I am for a strong Federation of States that preserve the nation states but binds them together in a centralised form especially when it comes to economic measures.social and military issues.A common platform when it comes to demographic problems (we've talked before about this),all states should spend 2.2-2.5% on Defence by law.Large European battlegroups should be created,EU Defence funds should be alocated to France so she could increase it's nuclear arsenal which would be extended by Treaty to cover all of the EU,a EURO Shield similar with what the Americans are building now should be implemented but with its control in the hands of an European Military Board.All these capabilities should be connected to the new Gallileo satellite system ,and not the US GPS.Within 8-10 years from now if this would be implemented NATO should be disbanded and the US politely asked to leave.I could live with the fact that a country like mine would be a junior partner in such an arangement but i can't live with being in Russia's sphere of influence again.

If Europe can't learn from it's mistakes from WW1,WW2,if it can see that altough we are different nations we have a common heritage,a common goal,that those wars shifted the balance of power from Europe to others,than Europe won't matter in the future.