Iron Fist active protection system

[TaimiKhan]

Iron Fist is not the first & only hard kill APS system, there is Quick Kill by USA, Drozd & Arena by Russia, AMAP-ADS by germany & sweden, China has a hard kill APS system but not much known about it.

Drozd is the first such system applying this concept in late 70s. Drozd was even fielded in the Soviet Afghan War.

So its not just in the Jewish hands.

 

[Kompromat]

I read about this following shortcoming of Trophy system...

"...Other problems include the fact that the system right now has no reloading capability. Once it fires, that side of the vehicle is vulnerable."
Source: Trophy Active Protection System

If it's true then I think it makes the ability of this system quite limited. Specially if your opponent realizes it, all it would have to do is try to hit the same side of the tank twice, this can be achieved by having anti-tank teams to work in pairs (incase expecting the same person/team to hit, reload and hit again to a tank without getting hit is not practical). I know it's easier said than done but I really think if the above mentioned shortcoming is not over come, deploying this system won't be much effective.

Thanks for your Information .

Lets discuss how this system can be defeated ?

My one is : As long this system has got no reloadings , the anti tank missiles can be fired from opposite locations , means a small group of people carrying anti tank weapons are required to fire at the tank from diffrent locations at the same time.

What it will do , because the iron fist can handel shells from only one side the other side is still exposed to the blast and the collatral damage would be massive too , resulting in the destruction of the tank.
And there is a new technalogy being developed in sweden i will include that soon in the thread , That would be the reall ans for Iron fist because it hits the target( tank) from the top where iron fist cannot fire its projectile.

Regards

 

[TaimiKhan]

 

[Patriot]

I think its not a viable system for fighting a huge army.They can fire multiple cheap rpgs to first finish the system and then use better anti tank weapons to destroy tanks.Not good for huge scale war with a conventional army.

 

[Developereo]

I read about this following shortcoming of Trophy system...

"...Other problems include the fact that the system right now has no reloading capability. Once it fires, that side of the vehicle is vulnerable."
Source: Trophy Active Protection System

If it's true then I think it makes the ability of this system quite limited. Specially if your opponent realizes it, all it would have to do is try to hit the same side of the tank twice, this can be achieved by having anti-tank teams to work in pairs (incase expecting the same person/team to hit, reload and hit again to a tank without getting hit is not practical). I know it's easier said than done but I really think if the above mentioned shortcoming is not over come, deploying this system won't be much effective.

Exactly! The enemy don't even need to fire two RPGs.

Just fire a cheap, dummy rocket to trigger the IR launch sensor and flight path tracker and use up the Iron Fist defensive shots. Then it's a sitting duck.

The dummys can even be fired by remote control because they don't really need to be all that accurate. Just good enough to trigger the Iron Fist defenses.

 

[mjnaushad]

Finish the guarding system by fake or cheap RPGs. then fire a TOW. I dont think jamming system will stop that because its not laser its wired.

 

[ironman]

Iron Fist is not the first & only hard kill APS system, there is Quick Kill by USA, Drozd & Arena by Russia, AMAP-ADS by germany & sweden, China has a hard kill APS system but not much known about it.

And here a new kid on the block...

Shock Absorber – Man-Portable Active Protection System ​

IMI's Shock Absorber was developed to protect dismounted infantry detachments and stationary posts, operating in hostile areas, where they are exposed to guided missile threats. The portable kit utilizes a laser based effector employing electro-optical infra-red directional jammer and electro-optical threat detection elements developed for the larger vehicle based active protection systems (Iron Fist - which has already been selected for the Namer AIFV). The system could also employ other countermeasures as required by operational tactics, techniques and procedures. The current system weighs less than 20 kg and can be carried by a single soldier. The system's development was initiated under the DDR&D armor and protection department and is currently in development and under evaluation by the IDF.
Israel Unveils New Precision Weapon Systems for the Ground Forces

 

[Kompromat]

I do acknowledge that destroying upcoming threat with an iron fist projectile without having any physical contact increases chances of neutralization but doesn't it also increases chances of collateral damage??

Sir please read my original post once again , and specially the last paragraph thanks

 

[Kompromat]

Exactly! The enemy don't even need to fire two RPGs.

Just fire a cheap, dummy rocket to trigger the IR launch sensor and flight path tracker and use up the Iron Fist defensive shots. Then it's a sitting duck.

The dummys can even be fired by remote control because they don't really need to be all that accurate. Just good enough to trigger the Iron Fist defenses.

Dummy rocket never heard of that one before !

Please tell us what it is and do you carry them during combat ?

 

[rizhussain44]

Exactly! The enemy don't even need to fire two RPGs.

Just fire a cheap, dummy rocket to trigger the IR launch sensor and flight path tracker and use up the Iron Fist defensive shots. Then it's a sitting duck.

The dummys can even be fired by remote control because they don't really need to be all that accurate. Just good enough to trigger the Iron Fist defenses.

Agreed, now it sounds even more worthless.

 

[rizhussain44]

Dummy rocket never heard of that one before !

Well, I believe that could be any projectile without a warhead, just good enough to fool the trophy sensors.

Please tell us what it is and do you carry them during combat ?

It depends what you need during the combat. If one needs to carry something of this sort than it will be carried. Has there been a need to carry a dummy rocket before? I don't think so.

 

[rizhussain44]

Thanks for your Information .

Lets discuss how this system can be defeated ?

My one is : As long this system has got no reloadings , the anti tank missiles can be fired from opposite locations , means a small group of people carrying anti tank weapons are required to fire at the tank from diffrent locations at the same time.

What it will do , because the iron fist can handel shells from only one side the other side is still exposed to the blast and the collatral damage would be massive too , resulting in the destruction of the tank.
Regards

My pleasure.

Coming to your analysis.. I didn't get how it would be beneficial to hit a tank from opposite sides. You are right in saying that a trophy system can take care of only one side but that's why the makers plan to deploy multiples of these, probably 4, one to cover each side of the tank. If that's the case then only one side should be targeted, first to neutralize the trophy defense of that side and then to hit the tank from that side.

Following is from the same source that i quoted before...
"Once it fires, that side of the vehicle is vulnerable. Which brings up another shortcoming: the Trophy can only be mounted to protect one axis. This means officials would have to mount multiple missile systems on every vehicle."

Source : Trophy Active Protection System

 

[nightcrawler]

Documentary that I have seen at Discovery proves that a single merkava tank was equipped with atleast 3 of such systems thus its a naive assumption tht u can trigger all of three Fist blocks using one dummy. And even if u triggered the Fist using dummy; even though the tank is now a sitting duck but as ur position is exposed u will be the running duck!!

 

[Arsalan]

I do acknowledge that destroying upcoming threat with an iron fist projectile without having any physical contact increases chances of neutralization but doesn't it also increases chances of collateral damage??

no, infact it minimize the chances of damage. if the incomming projectile explodes it will be more lethal whereas the iron fist projectile is a controlled explosion, enough to destroy the hostile projectile with minimum collateral damage!

regards!

 

[Vassnti]

no, infact it minimize the chances of damage. if the incomming projectile explodes it will be more lethal whereas the iron fist projectile is a controlled explosion, enough to destroy the hostile projectile with minimum collateral damage!
regards!

Always loved the term minimal colateral damage, it isnt much reasurance if you happen to be the minimal one.

I did wonder seeing the most common attack against an IDF AFV is a 12year old with a rock what counts as an incoming projectile?