eagle2007
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 160
- Reaction score
- 1
Arminkh,
See, my original response said something along of the lines of "unlike most other defense projects, Iranian AshMs are generally taken quite seriously in the US.." but took it out b/c I figured sticking to the topic at hand was a better option.
So, for the record, I don't dispute the there's a lot of chatter you generally here from the West on most Iranian defense projects, just that you don't normally hear much concerning Iranian AshMs. There maybe some snickers about their Chinese origins (which I'll address below), but I rarely read much concerning their lethality.
That said, the chatter you do hear about Iranian AshMs is based on a very important grain of truth:
With the exception of the new Nasir and the mysterious Ra'ad (& the ASBMs), nearly all Iranian-built AshMs are derived directly from Chinese designs:
>Noor= C-802
>Kosar= C-701/TL-10 (depending on Kosar variant)
>Nasr= C-704
Even the Nasir and Ra'ad are descended from Chinese stock (C-704 & HY-2 respectively), though more distantly. These two designs have their counterparts in China (the C-705 and HY-4), but only because Iran's design goals were similar and they used the same starting design.
What is usually overlooked by many commentators in "the West" is how Iranian engineers didn't stop at building direct counterparts to the original Chinese designs, but ran with the designs and developed numerous wholly domestic variants without outside assistance or input, generally to fit Iran's specific needs.
Draco.IMF,
I would dispute that bit about downplaying the Russians for the simple fact that most of those items you listed, aren't even known to those in the MSM (especially that bit about Russian ground-based EW equipment, a topic rarely talked about even in "informed" crowds). As a rule, western MSM is MASSIVELY ignorant about weapons technology, regardless of whether its American or foreign. Just look at the obsession over the MOAB. Those who knew about it well before hand (like me) weren't really shocked and were more surprise it had finally been used in anger. They're either obsessively over tech that's been around for 10-15 years or completely ignorant of it, no middle ground.
BlueInGreen2,
Jane's is very frustrating for me personally. Their books used to be truly top notch, especially their Cold War editions. For example, their early 2000s editions have some Iranian aviation designs that were never publicized and yet, they have images from Iranian exhibitions with specs (the HT-80 propeller-driver trainer for instance). They do miss the mark sometimes (regardless of country honestly) but given the sheer amount of information they are constantly compiling, that's to be expected to some degree. Their online reporting though is another matter. Sometimes, they have some good stuff (their articles about the Zoobin and Qadr were excellent and likely the first "western" articles giving Iran serious credit for it's PGM projects way back in the late 90s), while other times it's rubbish.
Oldman1,
No disputing the RAM's origins with Soviet Supersonic AshMs in mind, but by the time it entered full production, that threat had already begun to wane and yet the system has taken on much greater focus in the last decade. This includes the development of the SeaRAM, which combines the fire control elements of the Phalanx directly with the RAM launcher, making for a smaller launcher but with much greater automation and thus, faster reaction time. Hard to NOT see how such a defense system is perfect for countering potential "swarm" attacks of AshMs, supersonic or not.
The RAM is such a good concept, the Chinese came up with their own family of counterpart designs, which are also growing in popularity/use for the PLAN as well as their growing list of export clients.
Likewise, the increased deployment of the ESSM, which was designed primarily to take down highly supersonic targets like top-grade Soviet/Russian AshMs, also makes for an excellent defense for short-range ASBMs like the Khalij Fars. It wasn't designed necessarily with this target in mind, but it's clear usefulness in defending against it makes it's a hot item for the USN and navies all over the world today. Like the RAM, it's popping up in the designs of non-US naval vessels at a growing rate.
See, my original response said something along of the lines of "unlike most other defense projects, Iranian AshMs are generally taken quite seriously in the US.." but took it out b/c I figured sticking to the topic at hand was a better option.
So, for the record, I don't dispute the there's a lot of chatter you generally here from the West on most Iranian defense projects, just that you don't normally hear much concerning Iranian AshMs. There maybe some snickers about their Chinese origins (which I'll address below), but I rarely read much concerning their lethality.
That said, the chatter you do hear about Iranian AshMs is based on a very important grain of truth:
With the exception of the new Nasir and the mysterious Ra'ad (& the ASBMs), nearly all Iranian-built AshMs are derived directly from Chinese designs:
>Noor= C-802
>Kosar= C-701/TL-10 (depending on Kosar variant)
>Nasr= C-704
Even the Nasir and Ra'ad are descended from Chinese stock (C-704 & HY-2 respectively), though more distantly. These two designs have their counterparts in China (the C-705 and HY-4), but only because Iran's design goals were similar and they used the same starting design.
What is usually overlooked by many commentators in "the West" is how Iranian engineers didn't stop at building direct counterparts to the original Chinese designs, but ran with the designs and developed numerous wholly domestic variants without outside assistance or input, generally to fit Iran's specific needs.
Draco.IMF,
I would dispute that bit about downplaying the Russians for the simple fact that most of those items you listed, aren't even known to those in the MSM (especially that bit about Russian ground-based EW equipment, a topic rarely talked about even in "informed" crowds). As a rule, western MSM is MASSIVELY ignorant about weapons technology, regardless of whether its American or foreign. Just look at the obsession over the MOAB. Those who knew about it well before hand (like me) weren't really shocked and were more surprise it had finally been used in anger. They're either obsessively over tech that's been around for 10-15 years or completely ignorant of it, no middle ground.
BlueInGreen2,
Jane's is very frustrating for me personally. Their books used to be truly top notch, especially their Cold War editions. For example, their early 2000s editions have some Iranian aviation designs that were never publicized and yet, they have images from Iranian exhibitions with specs (the HT-80 propeller-driver trainer for instance). They do miss the mark sometimes (regardless of country honestly) but given the sheer amount of information they are constantly compiling, that's to be expected to some degree. Their online reporting though is another matter. Sometimes, they have some good stuff (their articles about the Zoobin and Qadr were excellent and likely the first "western" articles giving Iran serious credit for it's PGM projects way back in the late 90s), while other times it's rubbish.
Oldman1,
No disputing the RAM's origins with Soviet Supersonic AshMs in mind, but by the time it entered full production, that threat had already begun to wane and yet the system has taken on much greater focus in the last decade. This includes the development of the SeaRAM, which combines the fire control elements of the Phalanx directly with the RAM launcher, making for a smaller launcher but with much greater automation and thus, faster reaction time. Hard to NOT see how such a defense system is perfect for countering potential "swarm" attacks of AshMs, supersonic or not.
The RAM is such a good concept, the Chinese came up with their own family of counterpart designs, which are also growing in popularity/use for the PLAN as well as their growing list of export clients.
Likewise, the increased deployment of the ESSM, which was designed primarily to take down highly supersonic targets like top-grade Soviet/Russian AshMs, also makes for an excellent defense for short-range ASBMs like the Khalij Fars. It wasn't designed necessarily with this target in mind, but it's clear usefulness in defending against it makes it's a hot item for the USN and navies all over the world today. Like the RAM, it's popping up in the designs of non-US naval vessels at a growing rate.
