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Iran before Khomeini

tower9

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Came across this film which has a lot of rare and valuable footage of Iran prior to the Islamic Revolution. It made me think about how Iran's trajectory would've been so different if the Islamic Revolution had not occurred. The positives for Iran would be that today it would be very integrated with the global economy and quite wealthy and prosperous. Will likely be a huge center of cultural influence in the Middle East and even worldwide, at least equaling the influence of certain larger European countries. Iran would be quite westernized and modern in outlook. However, obviously the downside is that Iran would have its sovereignty extremely curtailed and held under the thumb of the United States.

So that's the price it currently pays for its independence. What do you think would've been better for Iran?

 
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Iran did have a secular government (Mohammed Mossadegh) but it was overthrown by the MI6, there was no option other than a revolution after the puppet government was installed, as for whether the revolution would have succeeded if it was a non religious secular revolution instead of an Islamic one.. well I don't know. In the end I would say what matters nowadays is for Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.
 
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Iran did have a secular government (Mohammed Mossadegh) but it was overthrown by the MI6, there was no option other than a revolution after the puppet government was installed, as for whether the revolution would have succeeded if it was a non religious secular revolution instead of an Islamic one.. well I don't know. In the end I would say what matters nowadays is for Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

Yeah I am aware of what happened with Mossadegh. My point was how Iran would be like if the Shah had never been overthrown. I feel like Iran would probably be the richest and most culturally influential Middle Eastern power today. Probably with a strong industrial base as well. Something like the Japan of the Middle East, economic powerful but not completely independent.
 
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Yeah I am aware of what happened with Mossadegh. My point was how Iran would be like if the Shah had never been overthrown. I feel like Iran would probably be the richest and most culturally influential Middle Eastern power today. Probably with a strong industrial base as well. Something like the Japan of the Middle East, economic powerful but not completely independent.
Yup. Actually, Iran was the 13th largest economy by nominal GDP in 1980.
Most of the growth happened in the last 10 years of the Shah after the establishment of the OPEC, which increased oil prices from $5 per barrel to about $20 per barrel.

However, the video is not a correct representation of all of Iran prior to the revolution. While Iran was doing very well in large cities, the situation in small cities was not good. If you want to compare today's Iran to Iran before the 1979 revolution, these are the main points:

Iran in 1970s:
1. Literacy rate was 35% with a huge gender gap. Only 24% of Iranian women were literate, while 48% of Iranian men were literate.
2. Urbanization rate was also low. It was about 34%.
3. Fertility rate stood above 7.
4. Tourism was flourishing with most travel agencies in the West offering Iran as the first choice of travel. You could find Europeans and Americans all over Iran all the time. Some of them even immigrated to Iran and stayed here.
5. Iran had some huge industries, but we relied on the US for nearly all of those industries. We mostly assembled stuff. But our productions were of high quality, because the designs and raw materials came from the US and Europe.
6. The Iranian culture was quite influential. Our singers were well-known throughout the region. Our cinema and TV shows were quite well-known and popular too. The extent of our music industry was so much that even decades after the revolution, people in the region continue to listen to our old singers like Googoosh, Hayedeh, etc.
7. Iran was good at sports, but we weren't really a powerful country in sports.
8. The quality of education was good, but only few people were really interested in math-intensive sciences. Most people preferred easier educational paths.

Iran in 2020:
1. Literacy rate for all of the population is now 86% with no gender gap. For people under the age of 60, the literacy rate stands at 97%. Gender gap is nearly zero, even in rural areas.
2. Urbanization rate has increased to 76%.
3. Fertility rate is fluctuating between 1.8 and 2.1 in recent years.
4. Iran is no longer seen as a tourist spot. Most travelers to Iran are from neighboring countries. Usually, they are Iraqis or Shiite pilgrims, or people who are really interested in history and politics.
5. We have developed indigenous industries that work without reliance to foreign countries. Our industrial base has grown and it is much more domestic than prior to the revolution.
6. The Iranian culture has lost its influence in the region. The regime has changed Iran's picture from an Iranian country to an Islamic one that promotes Islam and defends Palestine against Zionists. Our cinema continues to remain one of the best in the world. In fact, the quality of our movies has improved greatly after the revolution, but our music industry is dead.
7. Iran is good at most sports today. Our football team is 22nd in the world. Our volleyball team has been in top 10 many times. Our basketball team has been in top 20 for a long period. Our wrestling, weightlifting and Taekwondo have become World champions several times. Our best result in the Olympics was 12th in the 2012 Summer Olympics. Overall, we are doing better in sports.
8. Iran is excelling at education and science. We have one of the world's largest number of engineers and graduates in STEM fields. Our teams in science Olympiads have done extremely well. For example, Iran was ranked 1st in International Math Olympiad in 1998 and 3rd in 1997. We have won the Fields medal (the highest award in mathematics) two times in a row in 2014 and 2018.
9. GDP per capita has increased since 1979. But considering the international trend, that's not impressive at all. One may argue that Iran's economy has stagnated after the 1979 revolution, but one should also take 8 years of a bloody war with Iraq into account as well.

I think the major difference between today's Iran under the current regime or the previous regime is that today's Iran would've been more liberal and we would've had a huge income from tourism. We also would've sold 5 to 6 times more oil than now. Iran could've easily entered top 10 economies of the world under the reign of the Shah. So, your comparison with Japan is accurate.
 
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Iran was a sham prior to 1979 (I'm not saying it's more accurate now)

But a few videos of Tehran elites in skirts dosent represent the millions of Iranians across the country, it never did and it's why the backlash and Iranian revolution hit


The problem is the mullah regime is just as unrepresentative of the entire population and thus Iranians have division

There is a happy middle that Iranians need to find, same goes for all of us
 
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You can still see that less religious being in most Iranians today.Government extremely religious and most population the opposite. It's safe to say the current mullah regime has imposed itself on Iran and by no way a representative of most Iranians.
 
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Yup. Actually, Iran was the 13th largest economy by nominal GDP in 1980.
Most of the growth happened in the last 10 years of the Shah after the establishment of the OPEC, which increased oil prices from $5 per barrel to about $20 per barrel.

However, the video is not a correct representation of all of Iran prior to the revolution. While Iran was doing very well in large cities, the situation in small cities was not good. If you want to compare today's Iran to Iran before the 1979 revolution, these are the main points:

Iran in 1970s:
1. Literacy rate was 35% with a huge gender gap. Only 24% of Iranian women were literate, while 48% of Iranian men were literate.
2. Urbanization rate was also low. It was about 34%.
3. Fertility rate stood above 7.
4. Tourism was flourishing with most travel agencies in the West offering Iran as the first choice of travel. You could find Europeans and Americans all over Iran all the time. Some of them even immigrated to Iran and stayed here.
5. Iran had some huge industries, but we relied on the US for nearly all of those industries. We mostly assembled stuff. But our productions were of high quality, because the designs and raw materials came from the US and Europe.
6. The Iranian culture was quite influential. Our singers were well-known throughout the region. Our cinema and TV shows were quite well-known and popular too. The extent of our music industry was so much that even decades after the revolution, people in the region continue to listen to our old singers like Googoosh, Hayedeh, etc.
7. Iran was good at sports, but we weren't really a powerful country in sports.
8. The quality of education was good, but only few people were really interested in math-intensive sciences. Most people preferred easier educational paths.

Iran in 2020:
1. Literacy rate for all of the population is now 86% with no gender gap. For people under the age of 60, the literacy rate stands at 97%. Gender gap is nearly zero, even in rural areas.
2. Urbanization rate has increased to 76%.
3. Fertility rate is fluctuating between 1.8 and 2.1 in recent years.
4. Iran is no longer seen as a tourist spot. Most travelers to Iran are from neighboring countries. Usually, they are Iraqis or Shiite pilgrims, or people who are really interested in history and politics.
5. We have developed indigenous industries that work without reliance to foreign countries. Our industrial base has grown and it is much more domestic than prior to the revolution.
6. The Iranian culture has lost its influence in the region. The regime has changed Iran's picture from an Iranian country to an Islamic one that promotes Islam and defends Palestine against Zionists. Our cinema continues to remain one of the best in the world. In fact, the quality of our movies has improved greatly after the revolution, but our music industry is dead.
7. Iran is good at most sports today. Our football team is 22nd in the world. Our volleyball team has been in top 10 many times. Our basketball team has been in top 20 for a long period. Our wrestling, weightlifting and Taekwondo have become World champions several times. Our best result in the Olympics was 12th in the 2012 Summer Olympics. Overall, we are doing better in sports.
8. Iran is excelling at education and science. We have one of the world's largest number of engineers and graduates in STEM fields. Our teams in science Olympiads have done extremely well. For example, Iran was ranked 1st in International Math Olympiad in 1998 and 3rd in 1997. We have won the Fields medal (the highest award in mathematics) two times in a row in 2014 and 2018.
9. GDP per capita has increased since 1979. But considering the international trend, that's not impressive at all. One may argue that Iran's economy has stagnated after the 1979 revolution, but one should also take 8 years of a bloody war with Iraq into account as well.

I think the major difference between today's Iran under the current regime or the previous regime is that today's Iran would've been more liberal and we would've had a huge income from tourism. We also would've sold 5 to 6 times more oil than now. Iran could've easily entered top 10 economies of the world under the reign of the Shah. So, your comparison with Japan is accurate.
Fair comparison. Thank you sir
 
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One thing let me add to all this.

If we had no Revolution then Iran would have become an other Saudi Arabia in the region. From economic point of view.

But given the fact that Iranian people are culturally different from Arabs, Iran under Pahlavi would have become a cabaret of western countries. An actual shit hole from cultural point of view something like Japan or South Korea where women are being raped by American soldiers on the streets.
 
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Yeah I am aware of what happened with Mossadegh. My point was how Iran would be like if the Shah had never been overthrown. I feel like Iran would probably be the richest and most culturally influential Middle Eastern power today. Probably with a strong industrial base as well. Something like the Japan of the Middle East, economic powerful but not completely independent.
Hmen zia ul haq mil gaya onko khomeni
 
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Came across this film which has a lot of rare and valuable footage of Iran prior to the Islamic Revolution. It made me think about how Iran's trajectory would've been so different if the Islamic Revolution had not occurred. The positives for Iran would be that today it would be very integrated with the global economy and quite wealthy and prosperous. Will likely be a huge center of cultural influence in the Middle East and even worldwide, at least equaling the influence of certain larger European countries. Iran would be quite westernized and modern in outlook. However, obviously the downside is that Iran would have its sovereignty extremely curtailed and held under the thumb of the United States.

So that's the price it currently pays for its independence. What do you think would've been better for Iran?


In my opinion, Iran has developed quite well, considering the sanctions they face, it is better than most countries in the world.

One question is whether Iran must have such a bad relationship with the United States after the Islamic Revolution.

In general, although Iran is a country where politics and religion are integrated, it attaches great importance to education and the development of science and technology.
 
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It can be a military/ civilian dictatorship as well like Iraq. Compare Iraq and Iran, then you will see the different.
 
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I don't know about others' opinion but Islam as a religion of power and independence gave Iran every Sense of independence. Islam gave us identity, revived Zartosht culture of Iranian people such as hijab and social laws based upon religion. We developed nuclear and Space technologies along with aerospace and missile tech under sanctions solely depending on who we were/are.

West and its filthy culture gave us nothing but dependence, corruption, terrorism and lack of identity.
wearing skirt and copying western values doesn't mean better economy or industrialization.
Couldn't agree more brother.
 
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