Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked - 2017

[Indos]

Indonesia held election 12 times NEVER EVER the islamist based part won, it's always the Nationalist-Secular that won in fact the closest thing the islamist almost won is back in 1955 where they place 2nd and 3rd. After that they never reach that kinda achievement.

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Actually you are wrong. Let me clear it. First democratic election in 1999 is won by Islamist-Nationalist coalition, I bet you remember Amien Rais as king maker at that time and put Abdurrahman Wahid as President. Islamist-Nationalist later build a unity coalition with secular nationalist in 2002 and put Megawati as President.

And since 2004 - 2014 Indonesia is also lead by Nasionalist-Islamist coalition under Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration.

I hope Indonesia can keep being inclusive and prospers, East Asian and South East Asians are not as violent as some other places.

But history repeat itself, if you look at what happened in history, it's not as bright as it looks right now.

Indonesian people have proven to put aside their differences for the greater national interest. It is why Indonesia as a nation is a compromise between Islamist and Nationalist. It has been seen like that since we are able to make a compromise in making Pancasila as state ideology and also our constitution.

There is always a division among group, even between Islamist there is division as well. So we use democracy to make us work together and compete healthily on election. The other way to solve division is through war or live under a military regime just like happening in Middle East and Thailand.

 

[Rayadipa]

Actually you are wrong. Let me clear it. First democratic election in 1999 is won by Islamist-Nationalist coalition, I bet you remember Amien Rais as king maker at that time and put Abdurrahman Wahid as President. Islamist-Nationalist later build a unity coalition with secular nationalist in 2002 and put Megawati as President.

And since 2004 - 2014 Indonesia is also lead by Nasionalist-Islamist coalition under Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono administration.

Tbh, there is nothing special about Nationalist-islamist alliance after all it's just politics. As long everyone get their cake everyone is happy lol.

But i think the 2014 and 2019 election show us that this is not just about Nationalist-secular vs islamist again but also modernist islamist vs Traditional-Liberal islamist.
Which is mean the islamist faction is more fractured than they ever been.

But one thing for sure for all of the islamic party that exist right now, the good thing is they all agree and support Pancasila and Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which is quite a "guarantee" that we will not seeing any islamic republic of indonesia lol.

 

[Indos]

Tbh, there is nothing special about Nationalist-islamist alliance after all it's just politics. As long everyone get their cake everyone is happy lol.

But i think the 2014 and 2019 election show us that this is not just about Nationalist-secular vs islamist again but also modernist islamist vs Traditional-Liberal islamist.
Which is mean the islamist faction is more fractured than they ever been.

But one thing for sure for all of the islamic party that exist right now, the good thing is they all agree and support Pancasila and Bhinneka Tunggal Ika which is quite a "guarantee" that we will not seeing any islamic republic of indonesia lol.

I can say Islamist = (Modernist Islamist+Traditional Islamist outside NU) and the one who joint the secular Nationalist is NU (East Java).

Yes, all of the Islamic parties are not aimed to change Pancasila. All of the intention is to work within NKRI. The division has also been fixed by the creation of Pancasila that was created by our founding fouthers from both Islamist and Nationalist camp.

 

[W.11]

Islamist Movement will win election soon. If they fail on next election, they can wait. An one man one vote system, has given enough room for Islamist in Indonesia. The secular will lose anyway.

you fear black lash on chinese diaspora in indonesia?

regards

 

[Indos]

Muhammadiyah is preparing, from social and education. Just like Gülen movement.

Muhammaddiyah has been able to put their men as Ministry of Education since first democratic election in 1999 until 2019. And this Jokowi second term is the first time where Muhammadiyah activist is not put as Ministry of Education. While NU activist has always been put as Ministry of Religion since 1999.

 

[KhanBaba2]

This is a dangerous thread. Posting anything will mean a couple of weeks off.

 

[vi-va]

you fear black lash on chinese diaspora in indonesia?

regards

To be honest, not very much. It happened before, and history tends to repeat itself.

China foreign policy is non interference. It's Indonesia domestic issues, not ours. If some backlash happened, they can go some other countries including China.

If you are poking me with some sensitive issue and unfriendly intention, I can tell you, I don't care much. I am nobody, just be interested on how Indonesia politics will play.

Indonesia is a moderate and peaceful country for now. I hope Indonesia keep being peaceful and prospers. In this case, Chinese diaspora will be safe as well. It's for greater good and humanity.

What I observed is that, Chinese diaspora integrated with locals well so far. Those ethnic Chinese are now Indonesian as well. They have been taken care of by Indonesia government, nothing goes wrong.

If Indonesia become Islamist country, that's Indonesians' choice, so be it.

Muhammaddiyah has been able to put their men as Ministry of Education since first democratic election in 1999 until 2019. And this Jokowi second term is the first time where Muhammadiyah activist is not put as Ministry of Education. While NU activist has always been put as Ministry of Religion since 1999.

When Ahok was in danger, Jokowi made his choice. Jokowi failed to protect his ally in the first place, it means Jokowi is under great pressure.
It's understandable, but from this issue, at least I can smell something bad is cooking in politics.

@Indos ,could you please tell me know how true is the article below?
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/why-islamic-parties-dont-win-indonesian-elections

 

[Indos]

@Indos ,could you please tell me know how true is the article below?
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/why-islamic-parties-dont-win-indonesian-elections

False:

"NU, with an estimated membership of around 40 million, is a traditionalist group known to incorporate syncretic Javanese beliefs of the type Jokowi is rumoured to hold."

Actually NU doesnt incorporate syncretic Javanese beliefs but it hold belief and interpretation of Islam from Traditional Islam that comes from Middle East and quite well known with its Tasawuf practice.

Before some kind of reformation being done by Ibnu Taimiyah (Arab Ulama and scholar) in Arab world, Muslim in many part of the world practice similar way like NU. Practice like Tawassul (Islamic term) where people come to respected Ulama grave to ask something is heavily criticized by Ulama like Ibnu Taimiyah and later Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahhab (Wahhabism).

Syncretic Javanese belief is only hold by few Javanese now as Islamization in Java take greater effect during Soeharto regime period and many Mosques during that time were built every where and even the effect getting stronger after we embrace democracy which IMO partly due to popular TV station that are in majority held by Muslim entrepreneur (TV one, Metro TV, CNN Indonesia, Trans TV, TV7, Net TV, CNBC Indonesia) that some of them have Islamic program and even TV station that is held by Non Muslim like Indosiar has popular Islamic program hosted by popular women preacher "Mamah Dedeh" that was aired almost every day in early morning for many years.

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PKS is very promising in early period of our democracy but later the Nationalist faction on the party screwed the momentum by making corruption. It is now coming back under Islamist faction who successfully grew the party in the beginning and have much cleaner and pious attitude.

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Indonesian politics is somehow related to figure, so despite Islamic parties are currently not getting as much support like Nationalist parties get, it can still bring high impact through coalition, and if they can find right candidate for Presidential election they can get bigger as well. Democrat party and Gerindra party for instant grow bigger due to figures. Anies Baswedan, Jakarta governor, for instant should be included as potential leader directly coming from Islamist camp based on its stance on political Islam and has potency to become next President based on recent survey.

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The potency for Islamic party to grow is still quite big if you see how secular society like Turkey can be lead by Islamic party like AKP. If you see on Pew Research report, you will see Indonesian Muslim obedience on its Islamic practice like 5 times praying is much larger than Turkish Muslim. This level of obedience on Islamic teaching IMO has strong connection with their preference on the election. Maybe the correlation seems small now but the potency is absolutely exist.

 

[vi-va]

False:

"NU, with an estimated membership of around 40 million, is a traditionalist group known to incorporate syncretic Javanese beliefs of the type Jokowi is rumoured to hold."

Actually NU doesnt incorporate syncretic Javanese beliefs but it hold belief and interpretation of Islam from Traditional Islam that comes from Middle East and quite well known with its Tasawuf practice.

Before some kind of reformation being done by Ibnu Taimiyah (Arab Ulama and scholar) in Arab world, Muslim in many part of the world practice similar way like NU. Practice like Tawassul (Islamic term) where people come to respected Ulama grave to ask something is heavily criticized by Ulama like Ibnu Taimiyah and later Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahhab (Wahhabism).

Syncretic Javanese belief is only hold by few Javanese now as Islamization in Java take greater effect during Soeharto regime period and many Mosques during that time were built every where and even the effect getting stronger after we embrace democracy which IMO partly due to popular TV station that are in majority held by Muslim entrepreneur (TV one, Metro TV, CNN Indonesia, Trans TV, TV7, Net TV, CNBC Indonesia) that some of them have Islamic program and even TV station that is held by Non Muslim like Indosiar has popular Islamic program hosted by popular women preacher "Mamah Dedeh" that was aired almost every day in early morning for many years.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKS is very promising in early period of our democracy but later the Nationalist faction on the party screwed the momentum by making corruption. It is now coming back under Islamist faction who successfully grew the party in the beginning and have much cleaner and pious attitude.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indonesian politics is somehow related to figure, so despite Islamic parties are currently not getting as much support like Nationalist parties get, it can still bring high impact through coalition, and if they can find right candidate for Presidential election they can get bigger as well. Democrat party and Gerindra party for instant grow bigger due to figures. Anies Baswedan, Jakarta governor, for instant should be included as potential leader directly coming from Islamist camp based on its stance on political Islam and has potency to become next President based on recent survey.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The potency for Islamic party to grow is still quite big if you see how secular society like Turkey can be lead by Islamic party like AKP. If you see on Pew Research report, you will see Indonesian Muslim obedience on its Islamic practice like 5 times praying is much larger than Turkish Muslim. This level of obedience on Islamic teaching IMO has strong connection with their preference on the election. Maybe the correlation seems small now but the potency is absolutely exist.

I have to rely on Wikipedia heavily for those Islam terms, it's a bit hard for me to digest all those concept and the nuance of different ideology/religions.

It took me hours to understand, and I am very grateful for your response.