Indonesia Economy Forum

[Nike]

good educational video, water wheel had been used for long in Indonesia. Mostly to irigate terasering rice field in mountain area

 

[Ravager]

i am curious though, in Germany and Japan most of CNC maker and parts maker actually medium enterprises. Indonesia government should emulate policy to promote mechanization in production units among small and medium companies this way we can attract more investment for foreign companies and talents to set up CNC manufacturing units here. This way should be accompanied by forced order for SOE like LEN industry, Barata and Bima Bosma Indra to produce CNC mills and other numerical units machine production tools to be used at least by Government owned Entrepise like PT PAL, PT PINDAD, PT KAI (repairing units), GMF, Pelita Air Service maintenance center, PT INTI, PT INKA and so on.

To be honest , this is purely my conjucture by no mean it was a proffesional one . In my knowledge the only " local " private companies that have the technical know how and capability on making CNC mills and machinery below 6 axis in house were only the BUKAKA ... While i've lost my faith for the SOE one . Unless mosse/silmy could transform Pindad and BBI corporate mentality to the core and beyond.
While the medium ?? What would you expect from a company that most of it were rise and propagates from a mercantility sense/base not a technicality one ?? Until we have level up in technicality grade's sense our journey on Industry 4.0 were bound to be rough and hard . Manageable but tough

Believe me ...we are still lacking in the basic of industrial cultures and i still haven't see a proper remedial action taken by our government or educational institutes to tackle this chronic issues
And don't ever dream asking other country or nation to share their recipes and skills in miniaturizing . Precission machining and tooling were always a bigger power closed guarded secret . Ask the chinese why they haven't succeded as yet in their processing chips and jet engines endeavour despite billion after billion of $$ R n D funds they've been pouring .... Lacking the proper tooling and know how to take their step unto the higher ladder is they do ..
And that's too the sole Taiwan's insurance card for independence

 

[Nike]

To be honest , this is purely my conjucture by no mean it was a proffesional one . In my knowledge the only " local " private companies that have the technical know how and capability on making CNC mills and machinery below 6 axis in house were only the BUKAKA ... While i've lost my faith for the SOE one . Unless mosse/silmy could transform Pindad and BBI corporate mentality to the core and beyond.
While the medium ?? What would you expect from a company that most of it were rise and propagates from a mercantility sense/base not a technicality one ?? Until we have level up in technicality grade's sense our journey on Industry 4.0 were bound to be rough and hard . Manageable but tough

Believe me ...we are still lacking in the basic of industrial cultures and i still haven't see a proper remedial action taken by our government or educational institutes to tackle this chronic issues
And don't ever dream asking other country or nation to share their recipes and skills in miniaturizing . Precission machining and tooling were always a bigger power closed guarded secret . Ask the chinese why they haven't succeded as yet in their processing chips and jet engines endeavour despite billion after billion of $$ R n D funds they've been pouring .... Lacking the proper tooling and know how to take their step unto the higher ladder is they do ..
And that's too the sole Taiwan's insurance card for independence

Our society is reflect that matter aptly, with most children chose Social science class over engineering and natural science object class (including me). That's why our educational curicullum should be geared toward science and engineering technology. Meanwhile country like Japan, South Korea, USA, Germany and China had long geared their education toward such science and engineering technology

 

[Ravager]

Our society is reflect that matter aptly, with most children chose Social science class over engineering and natural science object class (including me). That's why our educational curicullum should be geared toward science and engineering technology. Meanwhile country like Japan, South Korea, USA, Germany and China had long geared their education toward such science and engineering technology

Yupp , you summed it up more eloquently than i've ever could.... A catch 2-2 isn't ??

But , like mang uton the wise tahu bulat seller once said to me ....
life will find a way ..
Whatever will be ... Will be lah ..

Time to hit the bed .....

Glory to our kapal api sachet + Djisamsoe ..

 

[nufix]

Our society is reflect that matter aptly, with most children chose Social science class over engineering and natural science object class (including me). That's why our educational curicullum should be geared toward science and engineering technology. Meanwhile country like Japan, South Korea, USA, Germany and China had long geared their education toward such science and engineering technology

Not really, Indonesia has 200k STEM graduates each year according to a survey in 2017. Sure that is still lacking compared to China’s 4 millions but that is not small either if we compare them on percentage basis. However, while China can absorb those graduates, Indonesia cannot fully absorb them. So you have somebody with an engineering degree working as cashier or teller at a bank instead of designing and maintaining machines.

Part of the main reason is because investments in industry in Indonesia is still geared towards quick job creation. So the lesser the factory is automated, the better. Padat karya is the key word here. This is exacerbated by the high reproduction rate in Indonesia which ensures the supply of cheap labor for 1 or 2 generations to come. Government is forced to always focused on type of industries that can quickly employ people and normally those industries are heavy industries and simple tech industries. China invests so much in robot and precision machine because they are already facing Labor shortages. We havent.

Anyway, if theres any subjects at Uni I would like to erase it is religious studies, gender and philosophy. Useless and irrelevant as academic subject since nothing about them is academical.

 

[Nike]

Not really, Indonesia has 200k STEM graduates each year according to a survey in 2017. Sure that is still lacking compared to China’s 4 millions but that is not small either if we compare them on percentage basis. However, while China can absorb those graduates, Indonesia cannot fully absorb them. So you have somebody with an engineering degree working as cashier or teller at a bank instead of designing and maintaining machines.

Part of the main reason is because investments in industry in Indonesia is still geared towards quick job creation. So the lesser the factory is automated, the better. Padat karya is the key word here. This is exacerbated by the high reproduction rate in Indonesia which ensures the supply of cheap labor for 1 or 2 generations to come. Government is forced to always focused on type of industries that can quickly employ people and normally those industries are heavy industries and simple tech industries. China invests so much in robot and precision machine because they are already facing Labor shortages. We havent.

Anyway, if theres any subjects at Uni I would like to erase it is religious studies, gender and philosophy. Useless and irrelevant as academic subject since nothing about them is academical.

philosophy is still relevant though, and why people still learn over them is need another study and wisdom though. Ok you will take more roundabout answer and question when asking a student of philosophy class

 

[Ravager]

Not really, Indonesia has 200k STEM graduates each year according to a survey in 2017. Sure that is still lacking compared to China’s 4 millions but that is not small either if we compare them on percentage basis. However, while China can absorb those graduates, Indonesia cannot fully absorb them. So you have somebody with an engineering degree working as cashier or teller at a bank instead of designing and maintaining machines.

Part of the main reason is because investments in industry in Indonesia is still geared towards quick job creation. So the lesser the factory is automated, the better. Padat karya is the key word here. This is exacerbated by the high reproduction rate in Indonesia which ensures the supply of cheap labor for 1 or 2 generations to come. Government is forced to always focused on type of industries that can quickly employ people and normally those industries are heavy industries and simple tech industries. China invests so much in robot and precision machine because they are already facing Labor shortages. We havent.

Anyway, if theres any subjects at Uni I would like to erase it is religious studies, gender and philosophy. Useless and irrelevant as academic subject since nothing about them is academical.

The key word here is quantity doesn't always equal with quality . I'm sorry to burst your optimistic view . Trust me it break my heart too you know cause i've seen and tasted enough in the field
But , out of 10 fresh graduates from tech at most were only 2 that it wasn't pure wastage for the company salary . It got much worst during these last 5 year . They got so stuck in theory yet zero knowledge/experience on real application in the field that's very disheartening to see some S1 grad had to be oriented by the high schooler operator graduates for atleast 2-6 month until some semblance of working order could be expected and strata could be reversed as it should be .
It's so frustating and infuriating at times ...

 

[nufix]

philosophy is still relevant though, and why people still learn over them is need another study and wisdom though. Ok you will take more roundabout answer and question when asking a student of philosophy class

Those subjects are great if they are applied to other subjects. In economics, we learnt about business ethics which have its roots in philosophy and religion. The same way with ethics in medical studies. But those subjects on their own? Academic rhymes with empiricism, can you really make those subjects empirical without tying them to other subjects? No.

 

[nufix]

The key word here is quantity doesn't always equal with quality . I'm sorry to burst your optimistic view . Trust me it break my heart too you know cause i've seen and tasted enough in the field
But , out of 10 fresh graduates from tech at most were only 2 that it wasn't pure wastage for the company salary . It got much worst during these last 5 year . They got so stuck in theory yet zero knowledge/experience on real application in the field that's very disheartening to see some S1 grad had to be oriented by the high schooler operator graduates for atleast 2-6 month until some semblance of working order could be expected and strata could be reversed as it should be .
It's so frustating and infuriating at times ...

Well I didnt say those 200k graduates are all of the same quality. The quality is one other thing. I went to Indonesia in 2016 and stayed there for about 4 months to help setting up a business operation for a german company investing in Indonesia.

One striking difference between graduates of Indonesian univs and German unis is the close relationship between industries and academic world. At least for 1 semester, students of german universities and Fachhochschule are required to intern at a company. They have specific subjects and assignments. For master students, your pre-thesis projects should be done in cooperation with a company or research institution.

So, graduates of german univs and technical/economics schools already have around 1 year (bachelor) or even 2 years (master) of professional experiences by the time of completion.

 

[Logam42]

Well I didnt say those 200k graduates are all of the same quality. The quality is one other thing. I went to Indonesia in 2016 and stayed there for about 4 months to help setting up a business operation for a german company investing in Indonesia.

One striking difference between graduates of Indonesian univs and German unis is the close relationship between industries and academic world. At least for 1 semester, students of german universities and Fachhochschule are required to intern at a company. They have specific subjects and assignments. For master students, your pre-thesis projects should be done in cooperation with a company or research institution.

So, graduates of german univs and technical/economics schools already have around 1 year (bachelor) or even 2 years (master) of professional experiences by the time of completion.

Yeah, this is one of the things NM was trying to tackle with his Kampus Merdeka education reform. Not enough uni linked internships in Indo.

 

[Indos]

Anyway, if theres any subjects at Uni I would like to erase it is religious studies, gender and philosophy. Useless and irrelevant as academic subject since nothing about them is academical.

If you erase religious studies from university, it will lead the Islamic preacher to come directly from madrasah that is used to remembering than developing their critical thinking in interpreting Quran and Hadith. I can say there will be more religious fanatics that will fill our religious preacher. I bet you dont want it, do you ??

Learning religion in university is very essential as the knowledge is so vast and diverse, it is not simple as you may think, this is why there is master and even doctoral degree in Islamic study.

 

[nufix]

Yeah, this is one of the things NM was trying to tackle with his Kampus Merdeka education reform. Not enough uni linked internships in Indo.

Yes, sadly his reform effort must face the reality of our education cultures which are dominated by people/groups who feel that education exclusively belongs to them. What you get is a curricula that is focused on stuffing knowledge as much as possible without the freedom to test it out in the process.

Anyway, me and the company decided to go with SMK and D3 graduates with options to pursue career advancement trainings in Indonesia or even in Germany if they prove themselves worthy. Best decision ever!

 

[nufix]

If you erase religious studies from university, it will lead the Islamic preacher to come directly from madrasah that is used to remembering than developing their critical thinking in interpreting Quran and Hadith. I can say there will be more religious fanatics that will fill our religious preacher. I bet you dont want it, do you ??

Learning religion in university is very essential as the knowledge is so vast and diverse, it is not simple as you may think, this is why there is master and even doctoral degree in Islamic study.

Well if a religion can drive a society to be radical, that is more of a question for the religious people themselves. If religion can drive you to be radical, maybe you are the problem.

I oppose the idea of having religious studies at University because they are not empirical in their own nature. They are BELIEFS, it is based on faith. Sure, I am perfectly fine if religious studies are taught, but not as a university subject. As I said, university is based on empiricism. Sure, religious teaching can be made empirical, but only when it is applied to other subjects. There are reasons why subjects that are ngawang ngawang like gender studies are being frowned upon in industrialized society as a mere of waste of taxpayers money. The reasons are mostly the same.

 

[Logam42]

If you erase religious studies from university, it will lead the Islamic preacher to come directly from madrasah that is used to remembering than developing their critical thinking in interpreting Quran and Hadith. I can say there will be more religious fanatics that will fill our religious preacher. I bet you dont want it, do you ??

Learning religion in university is very essential as the knowledge is so vast and diverse, it is not simple as you may think, this is why there is master and even doctoral degree in Islamic study.

To add in on this religion in uni debate.

Personally, I agree with @Indos. Religion & philosophy (especially pancasila philosophy) should still be taught in uni, including as an academic subject. While I understand it is easy to dismiss religious study as merely dogma and rote memorization, in truth religious studies are deeply academical, hence why clerics and ulema of old were considered 'scholars'. Fiqh, or the study of religious law, is not a matter to be taken lightly. It is a body of study (A 'science') that requires disciplined and extended study and thought to master. It is as deserving of being in a university as Philosophy, Languages, and History.

We already have what you are advocating: Polytechnics. Modern universities have always had a broader scope than the purely technical.

On other reasons why I want religious studies to stay:

The reason why moderate Islam has had such staying power is because both Muhammadiyyah and NU are deeply invested in education. While I have my misgivings about some of their... methods, it can't be denied that Muhammadiyyah and NU have made education much more accessible for many, especially in the periphery. Unlike the catholic church in the Phillippines, they are a force dedicated to improving access to education for all Indonesians.

Furthermore, cutting religious studies out of Uni will just ensure that the other 'side' will have a monopoly on knowledge on Islam. Worse, those taking religious studies will also be isolated from all other academic pursuits. This will segregate our society leading it to social upheaval. A friend of mine once told me is that from what he sees, the unfaithful are becoming less faithful, the faithful become more. Looking at America now, wherein faith has become totally cut off from any rationality whatsoever gives me the chills.

Yes, sadly his reform effort must face the reality of our education cultures which are dominated by people/groups who feel that education exclusively belongs to them. What you get is a curricula that is focused on stuffing knowledge as much as possible without the freedom to test it out in the process.

Anyway, me and the company decided to go with SMK and D3 graduates with options to pursue career advancement trainings in Indonesia or even in Germany if they prove themselves worthy. Best decision ever!

Reforms aren't easy. Furthermore, Nadiem isn't a bureaucrat so he's bound to make mistakes at first. I remember back when Ridwan Kamil first became Mayor of Bandung. Some of his attempted reforms were horrible. And yet, look at how 5 years of experience have improved him.

I've read into the program that everyone decided to veto, and I can see why. Note that it was not Program Kampus Merdeka ataupun Program Medeka Belajar that our entrenched interests boycotted. Not even the erasure of UN. It was Program Organisasi Penggerak (POP), which was very badly planned.

 

[nufix]

To add in on this religion in uni debate.

Personally, I agree with @Indos. Religion & philosophy (especially pancasila philosophy) should still be taught in uni, including as an academic subject. While I understand it is easy to dismiss religious study as merely dogma and rote memorization, in truth religious studies are deeply academical, hence why clerics and ulema of old were considered 'scholars'. Fiqh, or the study of religious law, is not a matter to be taken lightly. It is a body of study (A 'science') that requires disciplined and extended study and thought to master. It is as deserving of being in a university as Philosophy, Languages, and History.

We already have what you are advocating: Polytechnics. Modern universities have always had a broader scope than the purely technical.

On other reasons why I want religious studies to stay:

The reason why moderate Islam has had such staying power is because both Muhammadiyyah and NU are deeply invested in education. While I have my misgivings about some of their... methods, it can't be denied that Muhammadiyyah and NU have made education much more accessible for many, especially in the periphery. Unlike the catholic church in the Phillippines, they are a force dedicated to improving access to education for all Indonesians.

Furthermore, cutting religious studies out of Uni will just ensure that the other 'side' will have a monopoly on knowledge on Islam. Worse, those taking religious studies will also be isolated from all other academic pursuits. This will segregate our society leading it to social upheaval. A friend of mine once told me is that from what he sees, the unfaithful are becoming less faithful, the faithful become more. Looking at America now, wherein faith has become totally cut off from any rationality whatsoever gives me chills.

In that case lets agree to disagree. Like I said, I am not against religion being taught at university as they are complimentary to other applicable subjects. What I am against, is the intermixing between religion and science. Science itself by definition constitutes a pursuit of knowledge based on evidence a.k.a empiricism. Also, like I said, people are free to study religion and try to apply it to the society via other scientific subjects. But the study of religion should have its own form of institution separated from empiricism-based university.

Anyway, your example that expresses your concern about islam being monopolized by the other side actually reflects how religion is only relevant for empirical studies when it is being applied to the realpolitik of indonesias domestic politics.