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A country as large as Indonesia, with a trillion dollar economy with just less than 60 hodpodge fighter is pathetic. We should look at Turkish Airforce capability, they are what nearer us in term of economy capability and financial support. If they can sporting such large and sophisticated Air Force, Indonesia should do much better compared to them. Only armed by 100 F16 is truly too small. We should aim for 200-250 fighter, thats the number to fill aerial fighter coverage blank we had.
The mentality is different. Turkish military is prepped for war against their many neighbors which had been at conflict with turkey (particularly greece, syria or iraq in the 80s). While we have not had an aggresive and potentially dangerous neighbor (other than Australia) for the last 5 decade. And most of our army are deployed against domestic security,
The same as mexico which has close to $1.2 trillion economy. But field only f-5 jets and no mbt's .because they're so into fighting the narcos


Till we fix this mentality then say goodbye to a high tech air force and navy.
 
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I agree, 100 is too small. Rather I say that 100 (again, excluding the T-50's) should be the bare minimum in order for us to sufficiently generate sorties until help arrives. 100 airframes + weapons would allow us to survive at least 2 weeks.
 
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Singkies is kiasu. Period.

In any possible conflict, Indonesia likely to armed herselves to the teeth with crash program. Thats our bad attitude. Just reacting instead prepared
Just look at our military exercise theme. Always "merebut kembali pulau/lahan/whatever the **** yang sudah dikuasai musuh", rather than preemtive.
 
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Do "kestabilan kawasan" mentality still exist here?
never heard our politicians said it recently, so I hope not..
 
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Indonesia’s Natuna Challenge


Illegal fishing – including by Chinese vessels – continues to be a problem in the Natuna Sea.

By Nabiha Shahab
March 13, 2020
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In this Jan. 8, 2020, file photo released by Indonesian Presidential Office, Indonesian President Joko Widodo, center, inspects troops during his visit at Indonesian Navy ship KRI Usman Harun at Selat Lampa Port, Natuna Islands, Indonesia.

Credit: Agus Soeparto, Indonesian Presidential Office via AP
a mobile phone video taken by an Indonesian fisherman in the Natuna Sea recorded Chinese vessels escorted by the Chinese Coast Guard fishing in Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ). The footage soon went viral, causing a national uproar.

Herman, a Natuna fisherman, complained in a television interview that during the night “when there are no Indonesian navy patrols, foreign fishing vessels with trawls enter [Indonesian waters] and catch fish.

“We confront them. We show them the maps that we got from the navy,” said Herman, adding that they are often chased away by the coast guard vessels that accompany the trawlers.

In recent years there have been several high-profile captures of Vietnamese and Chinese vessels engaging in illegal, unreported, and unregulated (IUU) fishing in Indonesian waters. These include the Hua Li 8, Gui Bei Yu 27088, and Fu Yuan Yu 831 as well as three Vietnamese vessels captured earlier this year in the Natuna Sea.

“By violating our EEZ and catching fish there, the Chinese vessels are carrying out IUU fishing,” said Mas Achmad Santosa, former head of the Indonesian illegal fishing task force (Satgas 115).

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Following a meeting with the Indonesian government, China’s Ambassador Xiao Qian acknowledged that Chinese boats had entered Indonesian waters in December.

The incident came just two months after Edhy Prabowo took over the helm of Indonesia’s Marine Affairs and Fisheries Ministry from Susi Pudjiastuti. The former minister had a reputation for tough policing of illegal fishers, going so far as to scuttle captured boats.

A 2018 report found a more than 80 percent drop in foreign vessels fishing in Indonesian waters, as well as evidence of increased catches by Indonesian fishermen. It is unclear whether illegal fishing has increased with the change in minister.

11 fishing management areas according to its Indonesian acronym: WPP. Natuna Sea or WPP 711 includes the waters around the Indonesian islands of Natuna. It is located at the western tip of West Kalimantan province, but administratively it’s a regency under the Riau Islands province east of Sumatra.

Under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), Indonesia claims a 200 nautical mile EEZ, including exclusive fishing rights, around Natuna. China is also a party to UNCLOS.

Novi Basuki, an Indonesian doctorate student from Sun Yat-Sen University, said that “the problem is China maintains that they have ‘traditional fishing rights’ there. Lately they also mentioned ‘maritime rights,’ although they never detail what these terms entail.”

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Jakarta, meanwhile, has strongly rejected those arguments. “China’s claims to the exclusive economic zone on the grounds that its fishermen have long been active there… have no legal basis and have never been recognized by the UNCLOS 1982,” its foreign ministry said in a statement in January 2020.

Indonesia also formally lodged a complaint against the incursion at Natuna. China invited Indonesia for a friendly dialogue to resolve the dispute but Foreign Minister Geng Shuang reiterated that China has “historical rights in the South China Sea.”

thediplomat-2020-03-13.jpg

Chinese fishing and coast guard vessels (red dots) plotted on the Global Fishing Watch platform from November 1, 2019 to January 17, 2020. The yellow dots are Indonesian vessels. The red line indicates Indonesia’s EEZ.

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Effects on Fisheries

According to the Ministry of Fisheries and Marine Affairs, the potential fish catch in the Natuna Sea is around 961,145 tonnes. The total allowable catch is 768,916 tonnes (based on a 2018 study). The catch in 2019 is estimated to be 755,306 tonnes, although this doesn’t include illegal fishing.

Coastal environment and fisheries resources expert Yonvitner, from Bogor Agricultural University (IPB), downplays the threat of illegal fishing in Natuna to Indonesia’s fish stocks since “most of the fish in the EEZ are high migratory species that are transboundary, such as skipjack tuna, mackerel, mahi-mahi (dorado), and whales in southern Indonesia.”

second biggest source of investment in Indonesia in 2019.

“Indonesia’s relationship with China has improved a lot, mainly in infrastructure investment, during [President] Jokowi’s administration,” said Basuki.

Yonvitner cautioned that in relations with China, “We have to maintain a balance, we need to have access to their market.”

In a November meeting with Prabowo, the new marine affairs and fisheries minister, Ambassador Xiao Qian noted Indonesia’s “abundant resources” and offered China’s “huge market” to Indonesia’s fishery products.

The People’s Coalition for Fisheries Justice (KIARA), an NGO advocating for the protection and welfare of fishermen and coastal communities, recorded Indonesia’s fisheries imports from China as $71.6 million, or 25 percent of the country’s total fisheries import value, in 2018.

Susan Herawati, secretary general of KIARA, said in the period between 2014 and 2019, Indonesia’s total imports from China recorded an increasing trend of 2 percent, which started with the previous minister’s administration.

She added that Minister Prabowo has not put forward any progressive plan to protect Indonesia’s marine resources. She said that “our trade relations and investment from China is not based on equality. However, the government should not see trade relations as an obstacle to protecting our marine sovereignty.”

Herawati raised concerns with both the previous and current minister. Despite being strong on law enforcement, Susi Pudjiastuti allowed Indonesia’s fisheries imports from China to soar. But on the flip side “Minister Prabowo has indicated a strong lenience towards investors to continue increasing imports and is weak on enforcement such as his move to merge Satgas 115 into the Ministry [of Marine Affairs and Fisheries],” she said.

The Way Forward

In a recent meeting with Santosa, the former Satgas 115 head, he said that Prabowo mentioned that Indonesia is “increasing patrols and that means there will be more budget allocated… especially for fuel.”

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Through his newfound organization, the Indonesian Ocean Justice Initiative, Santosa is advocating for a stronger role of Indonesia’s coast guard, known as Bakamla, to see more regular patrols combined with airborne surveillance. Many of the staff at the organization formerly worked for Indonesia’s IUU fishing task force.

“Bakamla need to improve their technology to detect illegal fishing vessels, this is the priority now. They are quite sophisticated as it is, but it needs to be upgraded,” he said.

“The Chinese Coast Guard is the largest in the world. Their fleet is around 1,300 vessels and the largest [vessels] can reach 12,000 GT,” he said adding that to be able to defend Indonesia’s waters, Bakamla need to improve their technology to detect illegal fishing vessels as a priority.

“The next is presence and occupancy by our fishermen [to deter IUU fishing] all the way to the northernmost border. And this fishing effort needs to be supported by our law enforcement to protect out sovereign rights,” said Santosa.

In 2019, Indonesia had 81,614 fishing vessels registered in total (including smaller boats).

China will also be amending its Fisheries Law later this year, which will require its distant-water fishing vessels to abide by stricter vessel-monitoring rules and ban them from engaging in IUU fishing.

Nabiha Shahab is a freelance writer based in Jakarta.
https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/indonesias-natuna-challenge/
 
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Do "kestabilan kawasan" mentality still exist here?
never heard our politicians said it recently, so I hope not..


Thats orba jargon, we dont need it anymore

During Soekarno era, we already topple the region balance of power.

We need to build up our Navy and Airforce properly, aggresively and consistently
 
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if we cancel su 35 because afraid getting sanction then gov are weak lol, its like EU slapping palm oil tariff, catsaa sanction no big deal
 
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Credit to angkasa news, looks like Bell412EPX demo primary audiences is police forces

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if we cancel su 35 because afraid getting sanction then gov are weak lol, its like EU slapping palm oil tariff, catsaa sanction no big deal
CAATSA sanction IS a big deal. I don't think you realize how much of a big deal it is.

For one our government and our country IS weak. We have a trade deficit with the US, it accounts for a lot of our exports and investment. A sanction will literally cause 98' riots level pandemonium that would leave a lot of people poor and in trouble. Not to mention the majority of our military equipment have US made components and it's unrealistic to replace them all with Russian equipment.

You want to have all of that happen just for a measly 11 Flankers? Which I might add are inherently inferior to their Western counterparts?
 
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Singapore being "equal" to Israel is their wet dream, not a proven reality. The smol merchants are never the same as their "western counterpart" except in "size" part and "hostility" part lol, the former part was disputable tbh as Israel have many cities instead of one cramped island, and the hostility part is certainly a very different situation of "being actually invaded in full scale several times" and "being just sorrounded by large neighbor huhu i'm victim".

Theory theory theory, kiasu being kiasu thinking wars is just a mathematic assesment while at the same time rarely considers the probability of their own failures, dont say that they also copied the so-called "israeli" doctrine of "never losing war" when their only instance of seeing real war was when Japs blitzkrieged them while their British lords surrendering "a bit too fast" even with the "fort singapore" doctrine lol.

I think war business in general cannot be percieved as the same as real estate development with shiny brocures and loud marketing agents calling out "look how perfect the properties that we offers, absolutely 0% chance to fail".
 
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Singapore being "equal" to Israel is their wet dream, not a proven reality. The smol merchants are never the same as their "western counterpart" except in "size" part and "hostility" part lol, the former part was disputable tbh as Israel have many cities instead of one cramped island, and the hostility part is certainly a very different situation of "being actually invaded in full scale several times" and "being just sorrounded by large neighbor huhu i'm victim".

Theory theory theory, kiasu being kiasu thinking wars is just a mathematic assesment while at the same time rarely considers the probability of their own failures, dont say that they also copied the so-called "israeli" doctrine of "never losing war" when their only instance of seeing real war was when Japs blitzkrieged them while their British lords surrendering "a bit too fast" even with the "fort singapore" doctrine lol.

I think war business in general cannot be percieved as the same as real estate development with shiny brocures and loud marketing agents calling out "look how perfect the properties that we offers, absolutely 0% chance to fail".

Israel in their early establishment had refugee and forlorn mentality, they will die if they lose the wars against their neighbours. They dont hold the security as investment mindset like Singapore but more like their own lifeline, their final straw in the hats, in which if they lose a major engagements even once their survival is at stakes. Sinkies is actually living in harmony with their neighbours who usually just love to troll them time to time , actually well deserved with their Kiasu mentality.

will TNI consider this variant after the batch of the 412 EPI is fulfilled ?

I am under impression this will be possible, but 12 million a pop for basic config is quite expensive compared to EPI standard

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CAATSA sanction IS a big deal. I don't think you realize how much of a big deal it is.

For one our government and our country IS weak. We have a trade deficit with the US, it accounts for a lot of our exports and investment. A sanction will literally cause 98' riots level pandemonium that would leave a lot of people poor and in trouble. Not to mention the majority of our military equipment have US made components and it's unrealistic to replace them all with Russian equipment.

You want to have all of that happen just for a measly 11 Flankers? Which I might add are inherently inferior to their Western counterparts?

jeez 98 riot because catsaa you exaggerating to much, sukhoi purpose its like side arm, you still can use it in case usa slapping HAM or whatever for their made equipment, anyway usa in not our biggest investor, maybe lose some money, but you show you cannot be steered, and how the hell SU 35 is measly it perform good in syria
 
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jeez 98 riot because catsaa you exaggerating to much, sukhoi purpose its like side arm, you still can use it in case usa slapping HAM or whatever for their made equipment, anyway usa in not our biggest investor, maybe lose some money, but you show you cannot be steered, and how the hell SU 35 is measly it perform good in syria

I dont believe such case, even during embargoe era, the one who intercept US hornets is our F 16 not to mention we only had 10 at the time , that alone speak much about their reliability and spare parts abundance. US arms is abundance in market, so with their components supplier. The same cant be said with Flanker who only got Russia, Belorusia, Ukraina and India who can act as components supplier but with India and Ukraine track record i am more inclined to retire them early than let those two to touch our inventory!!!
 
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So far, the F-16V options seems to be the most reasonable, only if it comes with a "diplomatic favor packages" to both lessen the risk of "sanctions" and support our effort in the IFX projects, which should be our main fleet of fighters from 2030 onwards. We should stick along with the Koreans while they develops it further into 5th gen and becomes more and more independent in terms of spare parts, and so hopefully our local industries could gets some of these sweet techs back home. Honestly i dont think both Su-35 or Rafale is any prospective in the long-term, they are simply "inefficient" with minimal kickback.
 
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