Indo USA ties are cooling Post Bush Era

[Storm Force]

Has an outsider looking in i,m getting the impression that the huge work done in the last 10 years by Clinton And bush administration with INDIA is beginning to cool under the NEW OBAMA govt.

The single biggest trick the USA played to warm INDIA and begin to end decades of MISTRUST was their DEHYPHANTION of India and Pakistan.

In other words treat INDIA and Pakistan HAS 2 SEPERATE NATIONS WITH DIFFERENT aspirations different goals NOT has one SOUTH ASIA...

Bush wanted to make INDIA a majot strategic partner has a counterweight to the new SUPER POWER in the making CHINA.

Fearing CHINA massive GDP and future military might BUSH wanted Japan Korea & India 3 regional powers as back up both economically and paper military nos as a encirclement of China.

OBAMA

has ripped this up

1. Obama sees engaging CHINA as the no1 PRIORITY not encirclemenment as best way to tackle china. WIN THEIR TRUST make them equal.

2. He sees Pakistan as crucial ally on WOT. and feels local south Asian issues ie Water or Kashmir as seconary to USA interests first.

3. He feels as no encirclement of china is needed AND THAT SOUTH ASIA and policy in this area must be the same for both India & Pakistan.

I read indian newspapers and listen to politicians I THINK the indians are beginning to go cold on USA TOO

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The single biggest trick the USA played to warm INDIA and begin to end decades of MISTRUST was their DEHYPHANTION of India and Pakistan.

It is not the US that is 're-hyphenating' India and Pakistan, it is India that has refused to let go of the 'hyphenation'. On almost every issue of Pakistan-US relations and interactions, India has attempted to insert itself into the dialog.

Look at potential civilian nuclear cooperation between the US and Pakistan, weapons sales to Pakistan, Pakistan's security concerns in Afghanistan - on all of that it is India that is throwing a fit and bringing itself into the discussion - it is not the US that is 're-hyphenating'.

 

[Optimus]

It is not the US that is 're-hyphenating' India and Pakistan, it is India that has refused to let go of the 'hyphenation'. On almost every issue of Pakistan-US relations and interactions, India has attempted to insert itself into the dialog.

Look at potential civilian nuclear cooperation between the US and Pakistan, weapons sales to Pakistan, Pakistan's security concerns in Afghanistan - on all of that it is India that is throwing a fit and bringing itself into the discussion - it is not the US that is 're-hyphenating'.

That my friend is called tit for tat - The Pakistanis have done it - so will the Indians

Until the major concerns of India regarding Pakistan are settled(read it as cross border terrorism) I dont think India will distance itself from any such opportunity

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That my friend is called tit for tat - The Pakistanis have done it - so will the Indians

Until the major concerns of India regarding Pakistan are settled(read it as cross border terrorism) I dont think India will distance itself from any such opportunity

So you agree then that it is India that is responsible for not 'de-hyphenating' India and Pakistan, and not the US.

So long as India remains obsessed with countering and damaging Pakistan at every turn on the international stage (tit for tat or whatever excuse you want to use), there is no point in talking about 'de-hyphenation' and there is certainly no point in accusing other nations of 're-hyphenation'.

 

[deckingraj]

It is not the US that is 're-hyphenating' India and Pakistan, it is India that has refused to let go of the 'hyphenation'. On almost every issue of Pakistan-US relations and interactions, India has attempted to insert itself into the dialog.

Look at potential civilian nuclear cooperation between the US and Pakistan, weapons sales to Pakistan, Pakistan's security concerns in Afghanistan - on all of that it is India that is throwing a fit and bringing itself into the discussion - it is not the US that is 're-hyphenating'.

Comon Agno....This is a bit of overstatement....How can an adversary ignore if you are getting lets say more F-16's from US??? Are you saying that you are getting(if and when you get) these birds to fight against TTP???

We are a potential customer and plans of investing around $50 Billion which many Defence companies along with US would like to exploit...Now we would like to get Bang for our Buck...So growing and slowing down your growth cannot be considered as India's refusal to hyphenate....Now tell me is it a surprise that we would like to out grow you in defence and offense capabilities??? By providing you such weapons and that too on soft loans US is simply increasing our problems and reducing the effectiveness of our Hard Earned money....So not sure how come indian opposition is not expected????

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Comon Agno....This is a bit of overstatement....How can an adversary ignore if you are getting lets say more F-16's from US??? Are you saying that you are getting(if and when you get) these birds to fight against TTP???

We are a potential customer and plans of investing around $50 Billion which many Defence companies along with US would like to exploit...Now we would like to get Bang for our Buck...So growing and slowing down your growth cannot be considered as India's refusal to hyphenate....

Again, so long as India insists on interfering in Pakistan's relations with other nations, it is dragging itself into XYZ-Pakistan ties, and is therefore hyphenating India and Pakistan. The reason XYZ nation has to calibrate and pursue its relations with either country by taking into account the 'hyphenation' is because India throws a fit about XYZ country's relations in certain spheres with Pakistan, and therefore India only has itself to blame.

It is India that has to break out of this mentality.

 

[deckingraj]

So you agree then that it is India that is responsible for not 'de-hyphenating' India and Pakistan, and not the US.

So long as India remains obsessed with countering and damaging Pakistan at every turn on the international stage (tit for tat or whatever excuse you want to use), there is no point in talking about 'de-hyphenation' and there is certainly no point in accusing other nations of 're-hyphenation'.

Well there is no doubt that de-hyphenation is there...However Indians have lot of questions about Obama during her election campaign because in one of his interviews he said that Resolving Kashmir is important for winning war in AF...This brought indian diplomats to lot of unease..and lot of back channel diplomacy had to be done to send the message about India's stand...In other words some of his policy are/were in direct conflict with our interests....

Anyways i am sure all the irritants will be resolved...Here is one such latest development

US, India finish nuclear reprocessing arrangements | Reuters

 

[ajpirzada]

it isnt much of obamas fault.
it was economic crisis and the WoT mess which left no option for US but opt to deal with China and PAkistan directly.
that encircling china policy could never have helped US to deal with a much crucial recession.
also to handle the rising public anger against the two wars which bush left, pakistan was the best bet. if you wanna get out of afghanistan, you have to talk to taliban. and to talk to taliban, who other than pakistan can best help you with that.
logical isnt it?

and then like AM said indian obsession or if you wanna call it 'tit for tat', did not allow US to deal with south asia as one.

 

[deckingraj]

it isnt much of obamas fault.
it was economic crisis and the WoT mess which left no option for US but opt to deal with China and PAkistan directly.
that encircling china policy could never have helped US to deal with a much crucial recession.
also to handle the rising public anger against the two wars which bush left, pakistan was the best bet. if you wanna get out of afghanistan, you have to talk to taliban. and to talk to taliban, who other than pakistan can best help you with that.
logical isnt it?

Comon Man....Every country will do whatever she thinks serves her best interest....There is no rocket science in that...its all simple logic.....

and then like AM said indian obsession or if you wanna call it 'tit for tat', did not allow US to deal with south asia as one.

I am sick of this word being used again and again...Please tell me are you obsessed with India??? Even though every single purchase of PA, PAF, PN is in direct relation with how to counter IA, IAF, IN inventory yet i believe this is no obsession...This is their need...They have no other choice because we are adversaries...Now having said it please tell me what influence GOP has on any of our defence supplier???? So when you have no influence you can't do much against our purchase..can u???? All you can do is ask for the similar things and that's what you did/doing when India bagged nuclear deal...

Now when it comes to India we have a huge market ...and a big appetite for defence equipments because like you we also have to deal with a big giant(China) on our eastern border...This is the influence that we have used/using in the past to deny your progress....Sometimes we have been successful and sometimes we failed...so nothing like obsession....Believe me like yours our politicians are busy making fortunes for them....as far as people goes

- Rich class is busy making more money
- Middle class is busy in earning their lives....
- Poor class don't give a sh1t to any of this...

So tell me who is obsessed with whom????

did not allow US to deal with south asia as one.

US should not deal with South Asia as one...We are all sovereign nations and our relations should be bilateral...We will ask from US what is best as per our national interests and vice-versa...Same is true for you...Let US do the balancing act because of conflicting interests between the two friendly neighbours of South Asia...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well there is no doubt that de-hyphenation is there...However Indians have lot of questions about Obama during her election campaign because in one of his interviews he said that Resolving Kashmir is important for winning war in AF...This brought indian diplomats to lot of unease..and lot of back channel diplomacy had to be done to send the message about India's stand...In other words some of his policy are/were in direct conflict with our interests....

Anyways i am sure all the irritants will be resolved...Here is one such latest development

US, India finish nuclear reprocessing arrangements | Reuters

An issue such as Kashmir is a legitimate one to exercise diplomacy on, with a third country, since it is an internationally recognized dispute and both sides wish to influence events to favor their respective positions on that dispute.

However, when India diplomacy starts getting involved in things such as potential civilian nuclear cooperation, weapons sales, aid packages to Pakistan etc. then you do run the risk of 'hyphenating' and you cannot blame other nations for that.

Could you or someone else show me where exactly the US is 're-hyphenating' India and Pakistan?

 

[Storm Force]

Would you all agree that India AND USA despite the nuclear deal which USA had to really pull strings to take INDIA out of isolation ARE no longer so buddy buddy.

And this mistrust is being led by INDIANS who feel USA needs to choose sides and lean towards INDIA rather than Pakistan.

BUT good old USA will do wats right for USA.. FIRST.

Which is beginning to piss Indians off now

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BUT good old USA will do wats right for USA.. FIRST.

Which is beginning to piss Indians off now

Why should the US, or any other nation, not do that which is good for herself first?

What has India done for the US that benefits the US far more than it benefits India?

 

[Peshwa]

An issue such as Kashmir is a legitimate one to exercise diplomacy on, with a third country, since it is an internationally recognized dispute and both sides wish to influence events to favor their respective positions on that dispute..

No it is not.....

A 3rd party especially a hyperpower such as the US that has been involved in activities such as securing resources, policing, waging wars and cold wars to forward its own interest cannot be termed as a "neutral party".....

Sentiments, ground level realities and other subtle factors are something that are understood only by the parties involved.....
Hence mutual settletment of an issue such as Kashmir is the only solution.....unless Indian and Pakistan can agree upon such a party....which I can assure you will not happen.....

However, when India diplomacy starts getting involved in things such as potential civilian nuclear cooperation, weapons sales, aid packages to Pakistan etc. then you do run the risk of 'hyphenating' and you cannot blame other nations for that.

This is the de-hyphenation that India is looking for....which is the reason to get involved....
India (read GOI) does not see a parity between itself and Pakistan and expects different treatment and "goodies" metted out to each....

Could you or someone else show me where exactly the US is 're-hyphenating' India and Pakistan?

By allowing Pakistan the possibity of having a civilian nuclear deal silimar to India (or has been hyped by media)....India feels the "re-hyphenating" has begun,.....

Hope you see how I read it.....

 

[ajpirzada]

Comon Man....Every country will do whatever she thinks serves her best interest....There is no rocket science in that...its all simple logic.....



I am sick of this word being used again and again...Please tell me are you obsessed with India??? Even though every single purchase of PA, PAF, PN is in direct relation with how to counter IA, IAF, IN inventory yet i believe this is no obsession...This is their need...They have no other choice because we are adversaries...Now having said it please tell me what influence GOP has on any of our defence supplier???? So when you have no influence you can't do much against our purchase..can u???? All you can do is ask for the similar things and that's what you did/doing when India bagged nuclear deal...

Now when it comes to India we have a huge market ...and a big appetite for defence equipments because like you we also have to deal with a big giant(China) on our eastern border...This is the influence that we have used/using in the past to deny your progress....Sometimes we have been successful and sometimes we failed...so nothing like obsession....Believe me like yours our politicians are busy making fortunes for them....as far as people goes

- Rich class is busy making more money
- Middle class is busy in earning their lives....
- Poor class don't give a sh1t to any of this...

So tell me who is obsessed with whom????



US should not deal with South Asia as one...We are all sovereign nations and our relations should be bilateral...We will ask from US what is best as per our national interests and vice-versa...Same is true for you...Let US do the balancing act because of conflicting interests between the two friendly neighbours of South Asia...

well every country works in her best interest. if you go by this then there is no point of debating on anything.
all wat i mentioned were the reasons for this chill in relations. and lik the poster said that its bec of obama that thing have gone this way, i have tried to argue against it.

about the obsession.... as far as this term is concerned there is nothing to feel annoyed about. we hear this term being used by indian members everyday in one way or the other. and to find the answer of who is obsessed, you should look at the number of articles being published recently in indian media on the issue of increasing Pak US cooperation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No it is not.....

A 3rd party especially a hyperpower such as the US that has been involved in activities such as securing resources, policing, waging wars and cold wars to forward its own interest cannot be termed as a "neutral party".....

Sentiments, ground level realities and other subtle factors are something that are understood only by the parties involved.....
Hence mutual settletment of an issue such as Kashmir is the only solution.....unless Indian and Pakistan can agree upon such a party....which I can assure you will not happen.....

That is the Indian opinion, which favors a settlement based on the current territorial distribution between the two countries. The Pakistani position is that third party mediation is necessary precisely because one party to the dispute is comfortable with converting the status quo boundaries into the IB.

But my point was that Indian diplomacy on this issue, to prevent third party mediation, is acceptable, and not that third party mediation itself is acceptable - the latter is a different debate.

This is the de-hyphenation that India is looking for....which is the reason to get involved....
India (read GOI) does not see a parity between itself and Pakistan and expects different treatment and "goodies" metted out to each....

This is precisely the attitude of entitlement and irrational dislike of Pakistan that India needs to discard. It is none of India's business to determine whether Pakistan is treated with 'parity' by other nations or not. How other nations deal with Pakistan is the concern of those nations and Pakistan - India has no business here.

Your argument here is, as I said, indicative of an entitlement mentality of a spoiled brat, that does not want any one it disapproves of to obtain the benefits similar to those it has.

By allowing Pakistan the possibity of having a civilian nuclear deal silimar to India (or has been hyped by media)....India feels the "re-hyphenating" has begun,.....

Hope you see how I read it.....

A civilian nuclear deal with Pakistan will be based upon negotiations between Pakistan and the concerned nations - what business does India have here? Whether the terms of such a deal are eventually more favorable or less favorable than the ones India obtains is Pakistan and the NSG member states concern.

The re-hyphenation here is India's doing, out of a mentality that is obsessed with Pakistan (and not obsessed in a good manner either).