Indo-Israeli LRSAM Range Extended By A Third

[Chanakya's_Chant]

Why not make a SRSAM of astra

Actually we are developing the same - Vertical Launch Astra Based Air Defence System (LLQRM) Under Development

I don't see the point of changing the whole propulsion of mk-2. It is a heavy missile designed with soviet era air defence philosophies. if you are changing propulsion,guidance what is left akash in it other than an outdated design.Look at barak 8, at half the size,portability and weight it achieves twice of what akash can achieve in almost every aspects.

Yes, Akash is a success. Do some minor improvements like range and move on.
My bet is on SR-SAM project of DRDO. With seeker tech transfer from MBDA, it is very feasible project with lot of export potential.

Its name notwithstanding, Akash Mk-2 will not be derivative of the Akash missile; it will be a new missile built from scratch using substantially different technologies. No official word on the change in the propulsion system but they did talk of a new guidance system by putting an active missile seeker on-board - Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

BTW isn't SR-SAM and Vertical Launch Astra Based Air Defence System (LLQRM) the same?

 

[SR-91]

Actually the technologies gained through Maitri SR-SAM will be of immense help in realizing Akash Mk-2 - Active Missile Seekers and Vertical Launch Systems are the two risk areas for which India would like to go with MBDA's offer.

The MBDA pitch might look opportunistic and self-serving at the outset, but if you listen to what MBDA officials have to say, you could well change your mind. MBDA officials categorically confirmed during Aero India 2015 that they will transfer complete seeker technology to DRDO. There was no question of a partial TOT as was the case with Russia and the Astra missile.

MBDA believes that the risks involved in a project to develop a missile from scratch, as DRDO intends to do with Akash 2, are substantial with long and uncertain development time. Seeker and Vertical Launch are risk areas. India would be much better off getting the technology from MBDA so that timelines are not stretched to an extent where the usefulness of the product comes under a cloud. The production facility will be set up in India as well.

@Chanakya's_Chant

Do u remember, a while back, there was some news about some sort of coating was developed that extends the range of any missile by 20%. I tried searching but couldn't find it.

Do u know about this?

 

[Agent_47]

BTW isn't SR-SAM and Vertical Launch Astra Based Air Defence System (LLQRM) the same?

NO,Astra is a pure BVR missile, WVR missiles are normally converted as ground based QR/SR SAM role. Extreme manoeuvrability is a must.Be it AMRAAM,MICA,Python (because of range variations people usually call all these as BVR, at least not pure) Thats why MBDA is pushing for maitri for too long.@sancho was the one told me this.

Second,The report of Astra based SAM is pure speculation, source is very questionable.
DRDO based sources has confirmed SR-SAM project many years ago.Why do they have to go for it if Astra conversion is possible in the first place.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

@Chanakya's_Chant

Do u remember, a while back, there was some news about some sort of coating was developed that extends the range of any missile by 20%. I tried searching but couldn't find it.

Do u know about this?

Yes I remember - IISc Bangalore did develop a layer of chromium coating, applied to the nose of a missile, has the potential of increasing its range by at least a third or around 33% without adding fuel.

The nose of a missile, is conventionally blunted in order to reduce heating thus increasing the drag which considerably reduces its range. The chromium coating reduces the aerodynamic drag encountered by the missile by up to 47 per cent.

As the chromium coating evaporates with the enormous frictional heat generated during hypersonic flight, it reacts with the oxygen atoms present in the atmosphere and produces chromium oxide. This reaction is exothermic, that is producing more heat, thereby decreasing the density of the air around the nose of the missile. As the pressure reduces, so does the drag force, which in turn enables the missile to increase its range.

The breakthrough also has potential to help avert problems of the type which led to break up in 2003 of the American space shuttle Columbia when it was re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The disaster was caused by damage to the shuttle's thermal protection system, killing seven crew members, including Indian astronaut Kalpana Chawla. The special-purpose coating in place of the tiles and panels which now protect orbiters against extreme heat during re-entry into the atmosphere is seen as distinct possibility.

They also applied for an international patent for the technology.

Here's the research paper (was also featured in the Physics of Fluids journal published by the American Institute of Physics back in 2008) - Aerodynamic drag reduction by heat addition into the shock layer for a large angle blunt cone in hypersonic flow - ePrints@IISc

Though I am not sure if it had been actually experimented with any of our ballistic missiles. No updates since then - maybe @amardeep mishra can help!

DRDO did increase the range of Pinaka MBRL by adding polymer Hydroxy-terminated polybutadine and other chemical compounds added as boosters in it's original propellant. The new propellant increased the range of the rocket from 40-45 kms to 55-65 kms.
DRDO Develops Propellant To Enhance Pinaka MRBL Range

 

[SR-91]

Yes I remember - IISc Bangalore did develop a layer of chromium coating, applied to the nose of a missile, has the potential of increasing its range by at least a third or around 33% without adding fuel.

The nose of a missile, is conventionally blunted in order to reduce heating thus increasing the drag which considerably reduces its range. The chromium coating reduces the aerodynamic drag encountered by the missile by up to 47 per cent.

As the chromium coating evaporates with the enormous frictional heat generated during hypersonic flight, it reacts with the oxygen atoms present in the atmosphere and produces chromium oxide. This reaction is exothermic, that is producing more heat, thereby decreasing the density of the air around the nose of the missile. As the pressure reduces, so does the drag force, which in turn enables the missile to increase its range.

The breakthrough also has potential to help avert problems of the type which led to break up in 2003 of the American space shuttle Columbia when it was re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The disaster was caused by damage to the shuttle's thermal protection system, killing seven crew members, including Indian astronaut Kalpana Chawla. The special-purpose coating in place of the tiles and panels which now protect orbiters against extreme heat during re-entry into the atmosphere is seen as distinct possibility.

They also applied for an international patent for the technology.

Here's the research paper (was also featured in the Physics of Fluids journal published by the American Institute of Physics back in 2008) - Aerodynamic drag reduction by heat addition into the shock layer for a large angle blunt cone in hypersonic flow - ePrints@IISc

Though I am not sure if it had been actually experimented with any of our ballistic missiles. No updates since then - maybe @amardeep mishra can help!

DRDO did increase the range of Pinaka MBRL by adding polymer Hydroxy-terminated polybutadine and other chemical compounds added as boosters in it's original propellant. The new propellant increased the range of the rocket from 40-45 kms to 55-65 kms.
DRDO Develops Propellant To Enhance Pinaka MRBL Range

Thx for this awesome info. very well explained.

So our Brahmos range can be closer to 700+ km and thats with 300kg warhead!!!!

Range can be closer to 1000 km with a smaller warhead.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

LRSAM vs LRASM...had to blink there for a second.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

Thx for this awesome info. very well explained.

So our Brahmos range can be closer to 700+ km and thats with 300kg warhead!!!!

Range can be closer to 1000 km with a smaller warhead.

Talking of BrahMos's Range - here is something that might interest you -

Sorry but as I always maintain,"TOT" is a misnomer and a very loose term, Russians haven't yet transferred the know how of their exotic propellant grain in brahmos booster.Booster comes from Russia just like the liquid ramjet. There is a talk going on to buy the "technology" of liquid ramjet at massive 2000crore INR($330mn). Once bought,we can then tweak it to increase the range of brahmos to over 600kms thereby making it even more deadly!
Nothing comes for free my dear friend, you pay handsome amount to buy a particular "IP"!
Back in 90s when we were initially buying brahmos off the shelf,Russians even propsed selling of liquid ramjet technology at just 200cr INR, but thanks to usual Indian short sightedness, our SA at that time rejected the proposal.and now we'll be buying the same technology at x10 the rate!
Thankfully we have a scramjet engine propram that is maturing up and new hypersonic wind tunnel is also being set up for that very same purpose.

Nuclear Triad In Place: India Gets K-4 SLBM Out Of The Closet | Page 3

 

[maxpayne]

Indian SAM with 150-180 km range is coming soon, if some insiders are to be believed.

Will it be naval based or land based?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Will it be naval based or land based?

Land based initially, but you can bet it'll have a naval variant eventually. And the range is around 200-300km.

Mr. Avinash said DRDO would like to compete with the best in the world and develop long-range SAMs of 300 km range and air-to-air missiles with more than 100 km range. In addition, high-end, intelligent and highly agile futuristic missiles would be designed and developed as also capabilities to protect space assets.



Long-range SAMs, cruise missiles for all platforms: Avinash Chander - The Hindu

Avinash Chander: Our aim via the 'missile autonomy mission' is to cover a wider space as it were. Let me outline some of the new systems being progressed. A new man portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for which design is over and hardware is getting developed. A Longer ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board. A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage. An anti-radiation missile and a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued.


Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

 

[maxpayne]

Land based initially, but you can bet it'll have a naval variant eventually. And the range is around 300km.

Mr. Avinash said DRDO would like to compete with the best in the world and develop long-range SAMs of 300 km range and air-to-air missiles with more than 100 km range. In addition, high-end, intelligent and highly agile futuristic missiles would be designed and developed as also capabilities to protect space assets.



Long-range SAMs, cruise missiles for all platforms: Avinash Chander - The Hindu

Thanks. Aren't there some complexities of putting same land based missile on ships? Even Russia, China has recently modified their long range AD systems for navy?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Thanks. Aren't there some complexities of putting same land based missile on ships? Even Russia, China has recently modified their long range AD systems for navy?

They have done it. Buk, S300, HQ9, etc systems were land based initially as well. They all have naval variants now.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Will it be naval based or land based?

Initially land based, but there are plans to make it VLS compatible.

 

[amardeep mishra]

The nose of a missile, is conventionally blunted in order to reduce heating thus increasing the drag which considerably reduces its range. The chromium coating reduces the aerodynamic drag encountered by the missile by up to 47 per cent.

hi my dear friend,
Thanks for tagging me in a very interesting debate,i would like to present my views(and do tag me more in such questions!).
Firstly i would like to cast some light on some of the potential ways to reduce drag during re-entry-
1)blunted nose- it is the most common method of reducing drag and temperature of a RV.Now why does it work?
it works because when you have a blunt nose the shock wave is detached from the nose and hence that helps reducing the temperature vis-a-vis a sharp nose.This happens because in blunt RV you're essentially transfering the renetry energy to the air flow field and hence lesser energy is available to be transfered to the surface.
This was proposed in early 50s by an american aerodynamicist by the name julian allen for which he was awarded sylvanus albert reed award in '56.
Kindly refer to the picture below (picture courtesy:Anderson)

2)second method is known as "ablative coating"- thats what you just mentioned.

3)Third method is a very novel method known as "telescopic spike".It is a telescopic structure protruding from the nose .It helps to keep the shock wave away from the nose-popularly used in american trident D5. Thankfully this aparatus will be used in our K-5 SLBM.

So our Brahmos range can be closer to 700+ km and thats with 300kg warhead!!!!

Range can be closer to 1000 km with a smaller warhead.

My dear friend,the range of brahmos is in reality 600kms but due to MTCR the range has been compromised to 300kms.Now i am not at the liberty to discuss "how" that has been achieved.But lets just assume that once we have bought the technology of liquid ramjet,then we can morph it into our projects,but till then we are bound by the MTCR regulations.
Coming to the issue of LR-SAM,i can again not comment because the of the sensitivity of the information.However i would write what has always been written and published in public domain and that is,with a "bigger" booster,you can very well increase the range of LR-SAM. The dual pulse motor(basically a two stage solid missile) that is our own is a very very good technology that gives the missile an extra push during the end game- well one would ask,why is such complex arrangement required?The answer to this question lies in the fact that the thrust drops off rapidly in the end stages and hence the missile doesnt have enough punch during the end game especially when the target is manouvering and the missile is bleeding energy at an alarming rate.
A lot of people dont know that we painstakingly designed the dual pulse motor,we ran into what is known as "acoustic instability" during the initial phase- and that is a huge pain in the *** -because you dont really know how to eliminate it- it is more or less a trial and error approach to deal with it! They optimized a lot of things to remove that and the end result is very very promising- our propulsion and their electronics!
I dont know how come pakistan doesnt run into these kind of engineering challenges while designing their missiles- i am afraid their missiles are designed in beijing or nanjin etc(nothing to offend my pakistani friends but a reality @The Deterrent
I'd suggest members to go through the thrust vs time plot of usual solid rocket to understand how thrust varies in the end game

 

[SR-91]

Land based initially, but you can bet it'll have a naval variant eventually. And the range is around 200-300km.

Mr. Avinash said DRDO would like to compete with the best in the world and develop long-range SAMs of 300 km range and air-to-air missiles with more than 100 km range. In addition, high-end, intelligent and highly agile futuristic missiles would be designed and developed as also capabilities to protect space assets.



Long-range SAMs, cruise missiles for all platforms: Avinash Chander - The Hindu

Avinash Chander: Our aim via the 'missile autonomy mission' is to cover a wider space as it were. Let me outline some of the new systems being progressed. A new man portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for which design is over and hardware is getting developed. A Longer ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board. A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage. An anti-radiation missile and a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued.


Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

Great news


India is quickly closing the gap in missile technology.

hi my dear friend,
Thanks for tagging me in a very interesting debate,i would like to present my views(and do tag me more in such questions!).
Firstly i would like to cast some light on some of the potential ways to reduce drag during re-entry-
1)blunted nose- it is the most common method of reducing drag and temperature of a RV.Now why does it work?
it works because when you have a blunt nose the shock wave is detached from the nose and hence that helps reducing the temperature vis-a-vis a sharp nose.This happens because in blunt RV you're essentially transfering the renetry energy to the air flow field and hence lesser energy is available to be transfered to the surface.
This was proposed in early 50s by an american aerodynamicist by the name julian allen for which he was awarded sylvanus albert reed award in '56.
Kindly refer to the picture below (picture courtesy:Anderson)
View attachment 260588

2)second method is known as "ablative coating"- thats what you just mentioned.

3)Third method is a very novel method known as "telescopic spike".It is a telescopic structure protruding from the nose .It helps to keep the shock wave away from the nose-popularly used in american trident D5. Thankfully this aparatus will be used in our K-5 SLBM.



My dear friend,the range of brahmos is in reality 600kms but due to MTCR the range has been compromised to 300kms.Now i am not at the liberty to discuss "how" that has been achieved.But lets just assume that once we have bought the technology of liquid ramjet,then we can morph it into our projects,but till then we are bound by the MTCR regulations.
Coming to the issue of LR-SAM,i can again not comment because the of the sensitivity of the information.However i would write what has always been written and published in public domain and that is,with a "bigger" booster,you can very well increase the range of LR-SAM. The dual pulse motor(basically a two stage solid missile) that is our own is a very very good technology that gives the missile an extra push during the end game- well one would ask,why is such complex arrangement required?The answer to this question lies in the fact that the thrust drops off rapidly in the end stages and hence the missile doesnt have enough punch during the end game especially when the target is manouvering and the missile is bleeding energy at an alarming rate.
A lot of people dont know that we painstakingly designed the dual pulse motor,we ran into what is known as "acoustic instability" during the initial phase- and that is a huge pain in the *** job! They optimized a lot of things to remove that and the end result is very very promising- our propulsion and their electronics!
I dont know how come pakistan doesnt run into these kind of engineering challenges while designing their missiles- i am afraid their missiles are designed in beijing or nanjin etc(nothing to offend my pakistani friends but a reality)
@The Deterrent
I'd suggest you to go through the thrust vs time plot of usual solid rocket

@amit

Brahmos is a liquid ramjet missile, r u suggesting it is possible to use dual pulse motor on it? Has it been tested?

 

[amardeep mishra]

Brahmos is a liquid ramjet missile, r u suggesting it is possible to use dual pulse motor on it? Has it been tested?

Brahmos is of course liquid ramjet,i was talking about LRSAM in my next para,kindly read it again my friend