India's shopping list of New Russian Defence deals - Innoprom 2016

[PARIKRAMA]

@anant_s
The Tu22M was structured under the clause leased to purchase.

The original deal was under Admirnal Goroshov / vikramaditya deal. It compromised of

1. Lease first purchase later - 4 Tu 22M3 (backfire C)
2. Akula 2 subs - 2 in numbers from hulls present in shipyard

These assets were placed with Indian Navy as Tu142 were on overhaul.

Their primary role defined in books is maritime recon and maritime strike

But they have range of close to 6500-7000 km of ferry range and close to 2500 km of combat range with mission loads.

it can carry 6 Kh 15 missiles in a rotory launcher in bomber bay and 4 under 2 wings.. So eventually these 10 Kh15 may be replaced with Brahmos NG.

Officially i think we might have 8 backfires now in total including new purchases.. and that should be enough bcz that implies with 50% availability also 4 are always there to deliver
either of 4x 3 kh22 or 4 x 10 kh15 or later Brahmos Air launched version and future NG version.

 

[ito]

http://rbth.com/news/2016/07/12/russia-india-to-invest-4-bln-each-in-fgfa_610767

India has sped up the negotiations with Russia on the joint development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), The Times of India said, citing the Indian Defense Ministry.

Each country plans to invest $4 billion in the fifth-generation fighter jet development work, the newspaper added.

“The defense ministry is now finally working towards inking the final R&D design contract with Russia this year for the Indian multi-role fighter, a variant of the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA,” a source said.

Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA T-50 fighter jet. Source: YouTube/ Tonkatsu298

“Under the main design contract to be executed in over six years now, India and Russia will chip in around $4 billion each for prototype development, testing and infrastructure build-up,” the source added.

“The overall cost for producing 127 of these single-seat fighters in India will be about $25 billion,” the source said.

The preliminary design of the advanced fighter jet has already been worked out. The preliminary design contract cost $295 million. All the problems were resolved and Russian developers introduced more than 40 changes proposed by India in the design.

As a military specialist said, “apart from resolving technical and cost issues, Russia has also agreed to allow IAF [Indian Air Force] test pilots to fly its prototypes now.”

As a high-ranking official said, “the final R&D contract for the FGFA was on hold till now despite the two countries having first inked an inter-governmental agreement in 2007.”

The delay was caused by an unclear situation with the purchase of Rafale jets, the high-ranking official added.

“Though India and France are now close to inking the estimated 7.8 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale jets, the defense ministry acknowledges that just 36 fighters will not be enough to stem the country’s hemorrhaging air combat power,” the official said.

“The ‘multi-pronged strategy’ to progressively crank up airpower ranges from inducting the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft to exploring a second line of fighter production in the country, with the American F/A-18 and F-16 as well as Swedish Gripen-E already in contention for this proposed ‘Make in India’ project,” he added.

First published by TASS

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@PARIKRAMA

Confusion over the term 12 units of S400. Does it mean 12 batteries or battalions or regiments ?

All I know is that Russians have been usually deploying 2-3 battalions with at least 32 launchers, as one regiment .

Also just help me imagine how much area a average regiment will be able to serve , thanks.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Even worse. T90 should be the last MBT, India should be buying from overseas. After T90, India should and it is capable enough to develop MBT at home.
IA is the worst performer out of the three.

It wont be Armata, that's for sure. They're no where to be found inthe FICV program. And that's pretty much how the next tank program will be run.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA

Confusion over the term 12 units of S400. Does it mean 12 batteries or battalions or regiments ?

All I know is that Russians have been usually deploying 2-3 battalions with at least 32 launchers, as one regiment .

Also just help me imagine how much area a average regiment will be able to serve , thanks.

Phase 1 is 5 regiments and 12 battalions. - 3 regiments with 2 battalions and 2 regiments with 3 battalions.
Phase 2 will see more of S500 elements coming in and more numbers

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Tu-22M3 are useless for India.

We can buy Long Range Cruise Missiles (ALCM s) along with TU 22 M3

 

[Ankit Kumar]

We are getting Long Range Cruise Missiles (ALCM s) along with TU 22 M3

Corrected !

 

[Blue Marlin]

India's shopping list of New Russian Defence deals - Innoprom 2016

Source based news

Source is in Innoprom 2016 and has sent some details over chat.

India will be purchasing a complete new list of arms from Russia. This was disclosed in the Innoprom 2016 meet between Russian officials and Indian Chief Ministers (Chandrababu - Seemandhra, Fadnavis - Maharastra and Rajasthan + other states delegates)

This includes the following

1. 12 S-400 systems under Make In India Plan
2. 2 Akula II submarines - First lease and then purchase once lease expires
3. 4 new Tu 22M3 long ranged bombers under black project
4. 80 new Mi17V5 helicopters
5. 6 new IL 76 aircraft for purchasing Phalcon AWACS from Israel and integration
6. 200 Ka226T for which a factory is being setup
7. 1000+ new T90 tanks with upgrades
8. Up-gradation and modernization of Mig 29 aircraft for $ 0.9 Billion
9. Further plans for JV work of Brahmos.

Substantial progress is also made in FGFA project for which separate announcement will be made by the governments

Will try and find some more news as the same should be out in interfax as per the source.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Stephen Cohen @anant_s @hellfire @zebra7 @others

12 S400 is a big number and so is the new 2 SSN lease purchase.. Tu22M3 long ranged bombers.. so we have some already and now 4 new.. that is a very big black project..

1: 12 s400's yeah ok but under make in india is very vague to what extent. will they be on tata trucks?

2: do russia even sell the tu-22m3?
thats classed as a strategic bomber and a few countries wont be too happy with russia selling that to india and they refused to sell to the other.

3: 2 nuclear subs: the k-322 which is being modernised and proposed to india and also the iribis which is will be ready in about 12 months (q2 2017)

4: 80 mil17v5's: ok sure the mil 17's are getting old . russia should have purchased some dhruvs where india would have purchased more mil17v5's

5: 6 ll-76's ok sure but will they come with ps-90 engines? and what about the other a-50 and il76/78 will they be upgraded?

6: 200 ka226t: ok sure: not much has progressed on it though

7: 1000+ t90 upgrades ok sure, but cant india do it themself along with the development of the arjun?

8: mig 29 upgrades sure no problem

9: further work on brahmos ok.

10: workon fgfa

now i have doubts on number 2 certainly as that will come with consequences. also number 1 to an extent

but the most important in my opinion is number 10.

also lets see if pakistan responds to lease a chinese nuclear sub in responce india leasing a pair if nuclear subs from russia.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Phase 1 is 5 regiments and 12 battalions. - 3 regiments with 2 battalions and 2 regiments with 3 battalions.
Phase 2 will see more of S500 elements coming in and more numbers

And what role will IA have in its operations ?

Asking because I got hints that TorM2KM , the contender in QRSAM for Army had edge over SPYDER SR and SAABs offering because TorM2 relation with S400( in Russian aerospace forces is used to defend S400 sites) .

 

[Hellfire]

T-90s, can airlift into Ladakh. One armoured brigade is being airlifted into location as we talk.

And what role will IA have in its operations ?

Asking because I got hints that TorM2KM , the contender in QRSAM for Army had edge over SPYDER SR and SAABs offering because TorM2 relation with S400( in Russian aerospace forces is used to defend S400 sites) .

SPYDER is likely in for QRSAM ....

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Pls advice difference between Tu 22M3 bombers and B52 bombers.

 

[migflug]

Why are we going to buy old t 90s when arjun is available, that too in 1000.
Is there any need of tu 22 m3 in present times .
Going for another 6 phalcon ( those 2 in under construction are included or excluded ?). It also means our indigenous AWAC s are delayed . So to fulfill the numbers we are going for phalcon.
12 S 400 + 2 akula.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

1: 12 s400's yeah ok but under make in india is very vague to what extent. will they be on tata trucks?

2: do russia even sell the tu-22m3?
thats classed as a strategic bomber and a few countries wont be too happy with russia selling that to india and they refused to sell to the other.

3: 2 nuclear subs: the k-322 which is being modernised and proposed to india and also the iribis which is will be ready in about 12 months (q2 2017)

4: 80 mil17v5's: ok sure the mil 17's are getting old . russia should have purchased some dhruvs where india would have purchased more mil17v5's

5: 6 ll-76's ok sure but will they come with ps-90 engines? and what about the other a-50 and il76/78 will they be upgraded?

6: 200 ka226t: ok sure: not much has progressed on it though

7: 1000+ t90 upgrades ok sure, but cant india do it themself along with the development of the arjun?

8: mig 29 upgrades sure no problem

9: further work on brahmos ok.

10: workon fgfa

now i have doubts on number 2 certainly as that will come with consequences. also number 1 to an extent

but the most important in my opinion is number 10.

also lets see if pakistan responds to lease a chinese nuclear sub in responce india leasing a pair if nuclear subs from russia.

1. TATA and TATRA tractors will be used , almost all the Russian systems which we use ,which originally use Ural or Zil trucks are now based on TATRA or TATA.

2.Of course ....
Problems ? To....?

3. There are 7 hulls apart from Iribis among whom we can choose , of them only 2 have been funded till now , and Russian Navy intends to upgrade only 2 more, to save funds for Yasen and Borei projects . India can virtually buy upto 7 more....!

4. Why would Russia buy Dhruvs ? It was our demand , not their necessity , unlike Mi17s which are a necessity for us as our paramilitary forces expand , and now start demanding air support from IAF.

5. Contract has been signed to upgrade all Il76s , And first two are already underway.

Yes they will have PS90. No, no news about structural upgrades to A50 airframes till now .

6. Ka226T, IA and IAF have a very huge requirement for Light weight helies ,and our own Luh is till now only expected to take its first flight some weeks from now ( however I think that will be delayed due to Monsoon ).

7. 1000 T90s from Indian Line , now doesn't that sound better.Further think about the price , 5500 Arjuns.... that's lot of money ..... 2500 T90s, 1500 upgraded T72s, 500-1000 Arjuns ... that's better.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

1: 12 s400's yeah ok but under make in india is very vague to what extent. will they be on tata trucks?

Yup Tata trucks will be used for all such programs.
and Tor/Pantsir Units will be made by Reliance Defence in India.

2: do russia even sell the tu-22m3?
thats classed as a strategic bomber and a few countries wont be too happy with russia selling that to india and they refused to sell to the other.

That is true.. but then china was suppose to purchase 36 of T22M3 back in 2013.. Since our ones are from INS vikramaditya time purchase part (lease first purchase later) i am sure not much will be raised as we are old perators and buying 4 wont change much strategic parlance on paper. Of course it gives us a massive capability which no one can ignore.

If i remember correctly it was Australia who first raised apprehensions back in days saying Tu22M3 are in Andaman. But much time and relationship has improved with them and now they dont feel any issues.

3: 2 nuclear subs: the k-322 which is being modernised and proposed to india and also the iribis which is will be ready in about 12 months (q2 2017)

Yes what is surprising is the model lease first and purchase. This allows us to be honestly add to our stables 3 SSN of Akula 2 class. Now thats very interesting.. It takes care of 3 CBGs for next 2 decades and lets us focus on 6 SSN homegrown project without undue pressure.

also lets see if pakistan responds to lease a chinese nuclear sub in responce india leasing a pair if nuclear subs from russia.

It wont matter much bcz they already have regular birthing of a SSN from China which is specifically patrolling IOR. it will be in guise of protecting CPEC investments. In a way that would be good bcz then we can get the noise level and identification recorded more easily. But if its leased to Pakistan , i am not sure they will be able to afford it as already 8 Yuan sub + new aircraft purchase and modernization plans are there on priority.

Of course for us, MTCR benefits will help us now get some hi tech stuff for a high price. But we should be prudent not to depend upon everything imported.

5: 6 ll-76's ok sure but will they come with ps-90 engines? and what about the other a-50 and il76/78 will they be upgraded?

Yes it should come with new engines surely. IL76/78 will be upgraded surely to ensure they serve us for a long time. A50 availability issues might have prompted us to go for IL76 and Phalcon AWACS integration. The present number and future purchase should help us ease the serviceability issues, 6 phalcon system will be a major force multiplier.

7: 1000+ t90 upgrades ok sure, but cant india do it themself along with the development of the arjun?

This is one aspect i dont have a good answer. we should purchase more Arjuns surely. Not sure whats the real reason. But i guess we wish to phase out T72s completely. In such a case we might have looked at T90 may be T90MS edition.

It would have been good if we would have ordered around 400-500 Arjuns more bcz that would have helped our industry also.

 

[egodoc222]

Why are we buying t90? Why not armata?