India’s Mars orbiter completes six years at the red planet, but where is the science?

[KAL-EL]

I wonder if the orbiter took pictures of the pyramids down in the Sedona area.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

On the other hand, Pakistan didn't waste their talent on 27 useless papers or $70M on a orbiter but rather invested the talent, time and money into some other useful projects.

You do know that ANTRIX which markets launch capabilities of ISRO actually makes profit, don't you?

Even if I put 70 million dollars as their marketing budget, they are still net positive at 45 million dollars profit.

By the numbers, ISRO has done way more than most of the Indian departments.

 

[Itachi]

You do know that ANTRIX which markets launch capabilities of ISRO actually makes profit, don't you?

Even if I put 70 million dollars as their marketing budget, they are still net positive at 45 million dollars profit.

By the numbers, ISRO has done way more than most of the Indian departments.

$45M profit for launching a $70M orbiter? Show me the math please....with a source. It's hard to believe someone on PDF without a source.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

$45M profit for launching a $70M orbiter? Show me the math please....with a source. It's hard to believe someone on PDF without a source.

Why not?

https://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/Annual report 2018-19.pdf (Page 36) Profit of INR 26552.86 Lakh (After taxes)


https://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/ar-2017-18-eng_0.pdf Page 29. Profit of INR 21,152.00 Lakh (After taxes).

BTW, Arianspace, the commerical arm of ESA, earns a profit or mere 4 million euros at a budget of 1.43 billion euros. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianespace

Just to put the things in perspective.


I am sure you can challenge EU to shut down ESA and Arianspace. Can you? Do it and I will hear the laugh in the room from space itself. BTW, remember, for Antrix I am using Net profit ie profit AFTER taxes.

And all of this is pure commercial. Lets not even talk about military OR times ISRO has saved lives by correctly predicting storms OR remote sensing capabilities OR positioning and navigation capabilities to India.

 

[Itachi]

Why not?

Because making a $45M just for launching a $70M orbiter is absurd....

Let me show you how below.

https://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/Annual report 2018-19.pdf (Page 36) Profit of INR 26552.86 Lakh (After taxes)


https://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/ar-2017-18-eng_0.pdf Page 29. Profit of INR 21,152.00 Lakh (After taxes).

The first figure roughly translates to $36M net income...the second figure to $28.7M......

You do know that ANTRIX which markets launch capabilities of ISRO actually makes profit, don't you?

Even if I put 70 million dollars as their marketing budget, they are still net positive at 45 million dollars profit.

By the numbers, ISRO has done way more than most of the Indian departments.

What you're referencing is the operating income at $45M....the profit was $28.7M according to Antrix itself...

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antrix_Corporation

As you can see....someone increased the number from 28.7 to 30 so who knows if wiki can be trusted....always have to look at the source.

So going back to our discussion......while it took India 2-3 years of operating Antrix to get back what it spent on its Mars orbiter....whether the cost was paid before the mission or after it don't matter since it's a government owned entity (source is the official website) so whatever profit it makes (~$21M in 2010 and $28.7M in 2019) will be spent on unprofitable ventures like the Tejas and other projects. Big difference in $20-30M profit per year versus $1.6B sunk into projects like Tejas.

If my math is right, it'll take ~53 years for the Antrix to be operating at $30M (which it hasn't reached, maybe its 2020 net income has) for the Indian govt. to recover the Tejas $1.6B......even more if the whole Tejas project cost way more and also if there are other projects like the Tejas that have been eating up profits from ventures like that of Antrix.

BTW, Arianspace, the commerical arm of ESA, earns a profit or mere 4 million euros at a budget of 1.43 billion euros. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianespace

Just to put the things in prospective.

That is to be expected and more of what I would expect the profitability to be about. Space is a expensive venture, hard to make a profit in a private venture. Which is why uptill SpaceX, mostly governments put up with the costs and gain the profits.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Because making a $45M just for launching a $70M orbiter is absurd....

Let me show you how below.

Well, if making Euro 4 MILLION on a budget of 1.5 BILLION is not absurd, then India is doing A-Okay.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

As you can see....someone increased the number from 28.7 to 30 so who knows if wiki can be trusted....always have to look at the source.

I did not quote wiki, I have annual report from Antrix itself.

 

[Itachi]

Well, if making Euro 4 MILLION on a budget of 1.5 BILLION is not absurd, then India is doing A-Okay.

Again...you're looking at the profit of one single unicorn company in a pile of unprofitable ones......on the other hand, many European ventures make profit, albeit lesser if seen individually.

Gotta look at the bigger picture...

I did not quote wiki, I have annual report from Antrix itself.

So where did the below "45 million dollars" reference come from written by you on this thread?


I can only find the $45M "operating income", not profit, figure on wiki...

You do know that ANTRIX which markets launch capabilities of ISRO actually makes profit, don't you?

Even if I put 70 million dollars as their marketing budget, they are still net positive at 45 million dollars profit.

By the numbers, ISRO has done way more than most of the Indian departments.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Again...you're looking at the profit of one single unicorn company in a pile of unprofitable ones......on the other hand, many European ventures make profit, albeit lesser if seen individually.

Gotta look at the bigger picture...

Then in that case first ask europeans to close their "low profitable" Anianespace before pointing finger at Antrix and Indian space program.

Besides, Lets see. Antrix is making 41000 Lakhs on a revenue of 170901.62 Lakhs. Thats 24% operating income. I don't know about you, but I consider 24% operating income a pretty good return.

As a comparison, Amazon brings 14.5 billion operating income on a revenue of $ 280.5 billion.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

So where did the below "45 million dollars" reference come from written by you on this thread?


I can only find the $45M "operating income", not profit, figure on wiki...

If entity is owned by government, as you said yourself, then entire income is government's. Meaning Tax + Profit After Tax goes in government's kitty. Its just being accounted under two heads (Tax and Profit After Tax).

So total income for government is around 41K lakh INR in 2018-19. 58 million dollars approx at 70 INR per dollar.
And total income for governmet is around 31K lakh INR in 2017-18. 45 million approx at 68-69 INR per dollar.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

@Itachi Since we are talking profit and loss, lets look at the profits of commercial arm of SUPARO, if there is one. Care to compare?

 

[IsThisNameAvailable]

Humanity & science invests LOTS & LOTS of resources into things which have NO immediate material benefit.

And, in many cases, there is NO material benefit EVER.

The above will make sense to average civilized educated humans and MUST make sense to those with scientific bend of mind.

Others may please excuse.

 

[Itachi]

Then in that case first ask europeans to close their "low profitable" Anianespace before pointing finger at Antrix and Indian space program.

Besides, Lets see. Antrix is making 41000 Lakhs on a revenue of 170901.62 Lakhs. Thats 24% profit. I don't know about you, but I consider 24% profit a pretty good return.

As a comparison, Amazon brings 14.5 billion operating income on a revenue of $ 280.5 billion.

That's a thing about "profit" in government owned entities....the numbers are never true. Such a high profitability isn't possible unless you do some funny accounting which given that it's the Indian govt., can't be ruled out.

I see you still didn't get what I was alluding to.......one highly profitable company in a sea of profit eating ones versus a sea of low profitable companies, which would you choose?

Any profit Ankrish makes are put towards operating unprofitable companies and ventures...

Again, Amazon, like SpaceX is a private company. Either way, most of Amazon's profits come from its AWS business ventures.

Similarly....I would like to see where the "24%" profits are coming from.....in the end.....they're all investments from the Indian government....any profit gets gobbled up and in the bigger picture.....you get a net loss under the circumstances which are present in India.

If entity is owned by government, as you said yourself, then entire income is government's. Meaning Tax + Profit After Tax goes in government's kitty. Its just being accounted under two heads (Tax and Profit After Tax).

So total income for government is around 41K lakh INR.

See what I wrote above.

@Itachi Since we are talking profit and loss, lets look at the profits of commercial arm of SUPARO, if there is one. Care to compare?

SUPARCO......not suparo

SUPARCO, like NASA, doesn't need to generate a profit.....since it's a govt. owned entity. For a $36M budget...yes, you read that write.....for what it has already achieved is mind boggling since no other govt. has done so much with so little.

And the $36M budget is what it has been allocated......the actual given amount is much lower...

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

I see you still didn't get what I was alluding to.......one highly profitable company in a sea of profit eating ones versus a sea of low profitable companies, which would you choose?

Lets see, which is better, a sea of all non profitable companies and a sea of non profitable company and few unicorns? Why shoot unicorn because other are non profitable?

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

SUPARCO, like NASA, doesn't need to generate a profit.....since it's a govt. owned entity. For a $36M budget...yes, you read that write.....for what it has already achieved is mind boggling since no other govt. has done so much with so little.

Care to quote any mind boggling achievements of SUPARCO?