India's Air Prowess May Dip by 2025 as Govt Drags feet on Fighter Jet Deals

[beijingwalker]

India's Air Prowess May Dip by 2025 as Govt Drags feet on Fighter Jet Deals
While India will see 12 squadrons retire by 2024, the country will have added only 10 to offset those losses by 2025.
Uday Singh Rana | News18.com

New Delhi: During the 2014 Lok Sabha elections, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) lashed out at the ruling UPA by expressing “concern” at the pace at which squadrons were being added to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The BJP in its manifesto called it an “indication of the surrendering of India’s interests” and called for a complete overhaul of the system. But figures tabled in the Lok Sabha by the Ministry of Defence reveal that there would be no net increase in the number of squadrons added by the NDA government in its five-year tenure. In fact, by 2025, the IAF may end up having less squadrons than it currently possesses.

The question was posed by Anurag Thakur, BJP MP from Hamirpur in Himachal Pradesh, who asked, “the number of squadrons and squadrons of helicopters likely to be with Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2020.”


Minister of State (MoS) for Defence Subhash Bhamre in his response said, “The IAF will have 32 Fighter Squadrons and 39 Helicopter Units by 2020.”

The Indian Air Force currently possesses 32 squadrons but, as the minister put it, “Three squadrons of MiG-21 aircraft will be phased out by 2020.”

By 2019, the government plans the introduction of two squadrons of Su-30MKIs.

If the figures revealed in response to this question were worrying, another response revealed that by 2025, the number of squadrons with the IAF may, in fact, go down.

Biju Janata Dal MP from Kalahandi asked the ministry “whether the government proposes to phase out these fighter aircrafts in future.”

MoS (Defence) Bhamre in his response revealed, “Ten Squadrons of Indian Air Force (IAF) equipped with MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft are scheduled to retire by 2024 on completion of their Total Technical Life.”

Two squadrons of the Jaguar are also set to retire during this period.

Between now and 2025, the government plans to procure two additional squadrons of the Su-30MKI, two squadrons of the Rafale and six Squadrons of the Tejas, a single-engine fighter.

So while India will see 12 squadrons retire by 2024, the country will have added only 10 to offset those losses by 2025.

Air Chief BS Dhanoa’s assessment that India plans to have a 42-squadron Air Force by 2032 seems tough to achieve given the current pace of procurement by the Indian government. But one way in which the government may just be able to pull off this feat is if it manages to ink deals for single-engine fighter aircraft with haste.

Air Defence expert Air Vice Marshall (retired) Manmohan Bahadur said, “It may seem difficult at this stage to have 42-squadrons by 2032 but I think we can pull it off. It all depends on the pace at which the Tejas is manufactured and whether India will be able to procure single-engine fighter jets on time.”

In addition to two squadrons of the Tejas Mark 1 and four squadrons of the Tejas Mark 1A, India has also expressed interest in buying a foreign-made single-engine fighter. The two companies currently in the running are Swedish manufacturer Saab, which has offered to sell its Gripen E, and US arms giant Lockheed Martin, which has offered to transfer its entire F-16 Block 70 production line from Texas to India.

If India purchases around five squadrons of either the American or Swedish single-engine fighter, it may well be on the way to achieving a 42-squadron air force.

However, sources at Lockheed Martin suggest that the deal may not go down any time soon as the government continues to drag its feet.
http://www.news18.com/news/india/in...-drags-feet-on-fighter-jet-deals-1618443.html

 

[Willy wolly]

IAF needs to suffer like PAF, only then they will learn to behave themselves, PAF did fantastic job with JF17....
They need to take quick decisions and get planes or order planes as fast as possible, they have put India's security at stake....

 

[Shajida Khan]

IAF needs to suffer like PAF, only then they will learn to behave themselves, PAF did fantastic job with JF17....
They need to take quick decisions and get planes or order planes as fast as possible, they have put India's security at stake....

Its more complicated than that. Its essentially a massive 'cover your behinds, throw the blame on the other guy and kick the can hard down the road' among IAF, DRDO/NAL/ADA and Indian MoD.

As far as PAF goes; sometimes not having any choice is a great choice.

 

[SBUS-CXK]

IAF needs to suffer like PAF, only then they will learn to behave themselves, PAF did fantastic job with JF17....
They need to take quick decisions and get planes or order planes as fast as possible, they have put India's security at stake....

What happened to JF-17?

This is J-7.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 14.885 m (Overall) (48 ft 10 in)
• Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 3½ in)
• Height: 4.11 m (13 ft 5½ in)
• Wing area: 24.88 m² (267.8 ft²)
• Aspect ratio: 2.8:1
• Empty weight: 5,292 kg (11,667 lb)
• Loaded weight: 7,540 kg (16,620 lb) (two PL-2 or PL-7 air-to-air missiles)
• Max. takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet
  • Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,200 km/h (1,189 knots, 1,375 mph)) IAS
• Stall speed: 210 km/h (114 knots, 131 mph) IAS
• Combat radius: 850 km (459 nmi, 528 mi) (air superiority, two AAMs and three drop tanks)
• Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,187 nmi, 1,367 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft)
• Rate of climb: 195 m/s (38,386 ft/min)

Oh, sorry, I forgot, J-7 is China's 60s product.

This is tejas.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,100 lb)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[107] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[178])

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[105] Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[179]
• Combat radius: 500 km[180][181] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,750 km[181] (1,087 mi) with drop tanks[181]
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m[182] (52,500 ft)
• Wing loading: 255 kg/m² (52 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.96
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g

 

[Willy wolly]

Its more complicated than that. Its essentially a massive 'cover your behinds, throw the blame on the other guy and kick the can hard down the road' among IAF, DRDO/NAL/ADA and Indian MoD.

As far as PAF goes; sometimes not having any choice is a great choice.

I agree with you ma'am...

What happened to JF-17?

This is J-7.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 14.885 m (Overall) (48 ft 10 in)
• Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 3½ in)
• Height: 4.11 m (13 ft 5½ in)
• Wing area: 24.88 m² (267.8 ft²)
• Aspect ratio: 2.8:1
• Empty weight: 5,292 kg (11,667 lb)
• Loaded weight: 7,540 kg (16,620 lb) (two PL-2 or PL-7 air-to-air missiles)
• Max. takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet
  • Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,200 km/h (1,189 knots, 1,375 mph)) IAS
• Stall speed: 210 km/h (114 knots, 131 mph) IAS
• Combat radius: 850 km (459 nmi, 528 mi) (air superiority, two AAMs and three drop tanks)
• Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,187 nmi, 1,367 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft)
• Rate of climb: 195 m/s (38,386 ft/min)

Oh, sorry, I forgot, J-7 is China's 60s product.

This is tejas.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,100 lb)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[107] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[178])

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[105] Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[179]
• Combat radius: 500 km[180][181] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,750 km[181] (1,087 mi) with drop tanks[181]
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m[182] (52,500 ft)
• Wing loading: 255 kg/m² (52 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.96
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g

do you know the distance of knife that is away from pakistani throat and vice versa?
tejas is a point defence fighter for a reason and you have not considered any Counter measures, no EW suits, no composites used, tejas is more than this, only airforce knows what they have and have ordered 83 after crying for a while.....

 

[Shajida Khan]

What happened to JF-17?

This is J-7.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 14.885 m (Overall) (48 ft 10 in)
• Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 3½ in)
• Height: 4.11 m (13 ft 5½ in)
• Wing area: 24.88 m² (267.8 ft²)
• Aspect ratio: 2.8:1
• Empty weight: 5,292 kg (11,667 lb)
• Loaded weight: 7,540 kg (16,620 lb) (two PL-2 or PL-7 air-to-air missiles)
• Max. takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet
  • Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,200 km/h (1,189 knots, 1,375 mph)) IAS
• Stall speed: 210 km/h (114 knots, 131 mph) IAS
• Combat radius: 850 km (459 nmi, 528 mi) (air superiority, two AAMs and three drop tanks)
• Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,187 nmi, 1,367 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft)
• Rate of climb: 195 m/s (38,386 ft/min)

Oh, sorry, I forgot, J-7 is China's 60s product.

This is tejas.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,100 lb)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[107] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[178])

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[105] Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[179]
• Combat radius: 500 km[180][181] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,750 km[181] (1,087 mi) with drop tanks[181]
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m[182] (52,500 ft)
• Wing loading: 255 kg/m² (52 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.96
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g

Tut Tut... Quoting wikipedia and not even knowing what to compare with. You are hilarious! You J-7 is a well a product of 60, copied technology and shoddy implementation. Typical of Chinese engineering.

 

[SBUS-CXK]

Tut Tut... Quoting wikipedia and not even knowing what to compare with. You are hilarious! You J-7 is a well a product of 60, copied technology and shoddy implementation. Typical of Chinese engineering.

Wow. Indians say copied technology and shoddy implementation.
Come on, let's see the LCA. make in India for 33 years

LCA.

Chinese L-15 trainer aircraft (twin engine). Service in 2015, export Tanzania in 2016.

So I insist —— Indians are the cheapest and inferior in the world.

 

[faithfulguy]

What happened to JF-17?

This is J-7.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 14.885 m (Overall) (48 ft 10 in)
• Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 3½ in)
• Height: 4.11 m (13 ft 5½ in)
• Wing area: 24.88 m² (267.8 ft²)
• Aspect ratio: 2.8:1
• Empty weight: 5,292 kg (11,667 lb)
• Loaded weight: 7,540 kg (16,620 lb) (two PL-2 or PL-7 air-to-air missiles)
• Max. takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet
  • Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,200 km/h (1,189 knots, 1,375 mph)) IAS
• Stall speed: 210 km/h (114 knots, 131 mph) IAS
• Combat radius: 850 km (459 nmi, 528 mi) (air superiority, two AAMs and three drop tanks)
• Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,187 nmi, 1,367 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,420 ft)
• Rate of climb: 195 m/s (38,386 ft/min)

Oh, sorry, I forgot, J-7 is China's 60s product.

This is tejas.
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,800 kg (21,605 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,100 lb)
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[107] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[178])

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[105] Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[179]
• Combat radius: 500 km[180][181] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,750 km[181] (1,087 mi) with drop tanks[181]
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m[182] (52,500 ft)
• Wing loading: 255 kg/m² (52 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 0.96
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g

It’s clear that LCA is obsolete at induction. That is why Indian AF would treat this as a parade plane. The only usefulness of this plane is to make the 56”chest 57”...

 

[Shajida Khan]

Wow. Indians say copied technology and shoddy implementation.
Come on, let's see the LCA. make in India for 33 years

LCA.
View attachment 445566

Chinese L-15 trainer aircraft (twin engine). Service in 2015, export Tanzania in1016.
View attachment 445567

So I insist —— Indians are the cheapest and inferior in the world.

Tut Tut. Ever heard of HAL Kiran? We have been manufacturing and using it since 1968. Chinese are ignorant bunch, we all know that. BTW I heard they call you folks a 低端人口? Must be hard! Thats why you are so pissed!

 

[faithfulguy]

Tut Tut... Quoting wikipedia and not even knowing what to compare with. You are hilarious! You J-7 is a well a product of 60, copied technology and shoddy implementation. Typical of Chinese engineering.

Tejas is the same class as J7.

 

[Shajida Khan]

It’s clear that LCA is obsolete at induction. That is why Indian AF would treat this as a parade. The only usefulness of this plane is to make the 56”chest 57”...

If it is going against JF-17, its more than enough. For rest we have better fighters.

Tejas is the same class as J7.

Prove it! Otherwise you are also a 低端人口.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

I agree with you ma'am...


do you know the distance of knife that is away from pakistani throat and vice versa?
tejas is a point defence fighter for a reason and you have not considered any Counter measures, no EW suits, no composites used, tejas is more than this, only airforce knows what they have and have ordered 83 after crying for a while.....

Indians talk so big about themselves an their army and technology that I just want to ask them one thing
" Do you Bleed

 

[SBUS-CXK]

Tut Tut. Ever heard of HAL Kiran? We have been manufacturing and using it since 1968. Chinese are ignorant bunch, we all know that. BTW I heard they call you folks a 低端人口? Must be hard! Thats why you are so pissed!

If it is going against JF-17, its more than enough. For rest we have better fighters.


Prove it! Otherwise you are also a 低端人口.

Haha. What do you say you make?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-real-gap-between-china-and-india.505673/

In simple terms, when Chinese J-6 and type 59 tanks were at the Uganda-Tanzania war. India LCA and Arjun tank does not even exist. when China's J-7 and type 69 tank were at the Iran-Iraq war. India LCA and Arjun tank is just a paper. Still not simple enough? OK, a direct contrast....

India' LCA VS China' Q5, J-6, J-7, J-8, J-10, J-10B, J-10C, J-11, J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-20, J-31, JH-7, K-8, L-15, Y-5, Y-6, Y-7, Y-8, Y-20, H-6，H-6K, KJ-2000, KJ-500, Gaoxin 6, AG-600, C919....Some small production planes or transition models are not on the list. Oh, So sorry, I almost forgot, and JF-17.

BTW, the Indian living in China can guarantee that the 低端人口 does not exist. But India 18 million modern slave and 1 billion Dalits are real exist.

If it is going against JF-17, its more than enough. For rest we have better fighters.


Prove it! Otherwise you are also a 低端人口.

Lovely India baby, go on with your performance. It's interesting enough.

A 'Crash Landing': The Slow and Painful Death of India's Air Force

The Obama Administration is gearing up to sell eight new Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon jets to Pakistan, the New York Times reports. Those jets will add to Pakistan’s fleet of seventy-six existing “Vipers” as the type is colloquially known. Meanwhile, its arch-nemesis India’s air force shrinks by the day as planes age out and squadron are disbanded.

Assuming Pakistan completes the sale, the eight F-16s would help boost that country’s fleet of eighteen existing advanced Block 52+ Vipers. The rest of the Pakistani F-16 fleet consists of modified A-model jets that have been upgraded to Block 15 MLU standard, which bring those aircraft nearly up to the same capability as the newest Block 52+ jets.


Pakistan is also buying more than 150 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder fighters. According to Flight International’s World Air Forces Directory 2015—Pakistan currently has forty-nine of the aircraft in service with 100 more on order. The JF-17 ultimately originates as an extensive redesign of the Chendu F7, which was originally a license-built MiG-21 derivative. Powered by a Russian-made Klimov RD-93—which is a version of the MiG-29’s engine—the JF-17 provides decent capability at low prices. It is likely that the JF-17 will replace Pakistan’s geriatric fleet of Chengdu F-7s, Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs.


The rest of Pakistan’s fleet is composed of 140 Chinese-made F-7P and F-7PG fighters, which are a Chinese copy of the Mikoyan MiG-21. The aircraft have been upgraded with Italian-built Grifo-Mk-II radars, but are now obsolete. There are also roughly 157 French-built Dassault Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs in service with the Pakistani air force. But while the F-7 will eventually be replaced by the JF-17, it’s not clear what Pakistan’s intentions are to replace the Mirage fighters.

The bottom line for Pakistan is that while its air force can’t compete with the Indian air force in terms of numbers, it is upgrading its forces and potentially even growing. Meanwhile, India’s air force is shrinking.

The overall balance of power in South Asia rests with India—but that nation is increasingly being challenged by an ever more powerful China, even if Pakistan is not quite the threat it once was. But the Indian military—particularly its air force is suffering due to that nation’s dysfunctional government, incompetent bureaucracy and intransigent negotiating tactics.

The Indian air force is required to muster a strength of forty-two combat aircraft squadrons, however, due to decades of negligence it can barely manage to operatethirty-five units. That number could further shrink and hit a low of twenty-five squadrons if nothing is done to staunch the bleeding.

Part of the problem is a lack of trained pilots, but mostly it’s India’s inability to select a new fighter and complete negotiations in a timely manner—or really at all. The prime example of Indian bureaucratic incompetence is the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, which started with an Indian air force requirement for 126 fighters in 2001. While the Dassault Rafale eventually “won” the competition in 2011—nearly ten years later—India managed to derail the negotiations with various unreasonable demands that neither the French government or Dassault would ever agree to. Ultimately, the MMRCA program was cancelled earlier this year.

India is currently negotiating to buy thirty-six Rafales directly from the French government; a deal is allegedly imminent by the end of the year. But given India’s track record—that’s dubious at best. But the Indian air force still needs at least 120 medium combat aircraft with similar capability to the Rafale. Indeed, the Indians still hope to buy more Rafales, but they might have to extend production of the indigenous Tejas to keep their fleet numbers up.

But the problem with India’s HAL Tejas is that it is one of the single worst fighter projects that has ever been conceived of in the history of aviation. Even as it enters service, the aircraft is obsolete and is probably inferior in many respects to the JF-17. The jet has 57 known deficiencies and will probably get a lot of Indian pilots killed if any type of conflict were ever to break out.

Meanwhile, the one bright spot for the Indian air force is the Sukhoi Su-30MKI. While the Indians have had some issues with the Russians in supporting the Flanker-H, the 220 Su-30s that are currently in service are that country’s first line of defense. India will ultimately buy 272 Flanker-H fighters, but it should give serious consideration to extending that buy until its air force recovers some of its numerical strength. Basically, India should consider scrapping the Tejas and buying 120 or more additional Flankers.

In the future, the Indians are likely to buy a derivative of Russia’s T-50 PAK-FA stealth fighter. But the Indian-Russian co-development effort is a rocky one—and it is unclear how many jets will ultimately be delivered to the Indian air force and when. India is also developing it’s own fifth-generation fighter—but given it’s previous efforts on the Tejas, it’s not likely to fly any time soon.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...w-painful-death-indias-air-force-14149?page=2

 

[Suriya]

So I insist —— Indians are the cheapest and inferior in the world.

I imagine how you would look saying this in heavy Chinese accent . Hilarious i insist .

 

[Shajida Khan]

In simple terms, when Chinese J-6 and type 59 tanks were at the Uganda-Tanzania war. India LCA and Arjun tank does not even exist. when China's J-7 and type 69 tank were at the Iran-Iraq war. India LCA and Arjun tank is just a paper. Still not simple enough? OK, a direct contrast....

India' LCA VS China' Q5, J-6, J-7, J-8, J-10, J-10B, J-10C, J-11, J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-20, J-31, JH-7, K-8, L-15, Y-5, Y-6, Y-7, Y-8, Y-20, H-6，H-6K, KJ-2000, KJ-500, Gaoxin 6, AG-600, C919....Some small production planes or transition models are not on the list. Oh, So sorry, I almost forgot, and JF-17.

None of your rant proves that LCA is 'comparable' to J-7. Now back to building more plastic cases mr 低端人口

BTW, I have Chinese sources who have confirmed existance of terminology '低端人口'.

I live in Seattle and sometimes in Vancouver. Met too many folks from mainland China.

I imagine how you would look saying this in heavy Chinese accent . Hilarious i insist .

I don't have to even imagine it. Meet them day in and day out. They are indeed hilarious. Though most of them are hard working decent folks. Only on Pakistan Defence Forum you find these types. You know the vicariously victorious types.