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Indian Navy's White Elephant ?

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Soviet Carrier Turns Into India's White Elephant
By PRATAP CHAKRAVARTY, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 1 Aug 2009 10:25

NEW DELHI - When Russia gave India a retired Soviet aircraft carrier five years ago, New Delhi was delighted - little realizing the vessel would turn into a costly white elephant.

Russia, India's longtime weapons supplier, said in 2004 it would give the country the 44,570-ton "Admiral Gorshkov" as a gift, provided Delhi paid a Russian shipyard $974 million to refurbish the carrier.
Since then, the price has skyrocketed for fixing up the 27-year-old ship, which was decommissioned after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In 2007, Russia demanded $850 million more, citing cost escalations.

Then, six months ago, Russia startled India with another demand - this time for 2.9 billion dollars.

It also pushed back the ship's delivery by four years to 2012 - a year after India must mothball its last remaining aircraft carrier, the British-origin INS Viraat.

Now India's national auditor has waded into the row, saying the navy could have paid less for a new carrier.

"At best, the Indian navy would be acquiring, belatedly, a second-hand ship with a limited lifespan by paying significantly more than what it would have paid for a new ship," it said in its military spending report.

The Russian price hikes have sparked outrage, forcing India's Defence Minister A.K. Antony to assure parliament this week that fresh negotiations were once again under way.

"At present, the price escalation is in the negotiation stage and nothing has been finalised," Antony said, but he conceded India was paying "a substantially huge price" for the Admiral's refit.

New Delhi has already paid hundreds of millions of dollars in advance to Russia's state-run Sevmash shipyard.

"It's no doubt giving India a severe headache but we're stuck with it because if we pull out now, we don't get back a penny," said retired Gen. V. N. Sharma, a former chief of India's million-plus army.

India must also dig deeper into its pocket for tens of millions of dollars extra to equip the docked Admiral Gorshkov with Sukhoi-30 warjets and Russian missiles, officials say.

Russia's state-run defence export agency Rosoboronexport, which is handling the deal, has rejected suggestions that it is short-changing India.

"Every step in the process of the refit of the aircraft carrier is monitored by the Indian navy's technical team and they have never raised objections," spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko was quoted as saying by the Press Trust of India.

The shipyard refitting the vessel has insisted that the cost escalations are due to Indian demands for features not included in the original contract.

Minister Antony says New Delhi, which is trying to build an aircraft carrier of its own, was forced to turn to Russia as no other country would give India a tactical vessel of such a size.

Russia, which accounts for 70 percent of India's military hardware, has up to $9 billion worth of defense orders from New Delhi in the pipeline.

General Sharma said he believes the Russians "grossly miscalculated when writing up this contract in 2004".

But retired Rear Adm. Raja Menon, who was associated with the project, said he believes Russia is seeking to get as much out of India as it can.

He said Moscow is in the habit of arm-twisting its traditional weapons buyers.

"Russia's track record is very poor in this regard and this time the nation has to take a call on this," he said.

"In other contracts too they had escalated costs and thought they could get away with it again," Menon said.



Regards::bunny:
 
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indeed, they will have to make that white elephant on display with so much budget unexpectedly spent to fill the pit of russian stomach
 
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Why is this thread in the Pakistan Navy section? There is already a section in the Indian Navy section.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...carrier-turns-into-indias-white-elephant.html

Mods please merge the threads.

The carrier Gorshkov was indeed a thorn in Indo-Russian relations for a long time with the Russians demanding more and more money. A large part of the blame goes to the shipyard which carried out initial surverys and quoted an underestimated amount for the refurbishment.

However these differences have been resolved to a large extent with the ship now ready for delivery in 2012 and induction in 2013. The Indians have gotten a raw deal but the addition of this weapons platform would pack a mean punch which hopefully makes the "white elephant" into a "raging bull". :cheers:
 
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you need to be extremely good if you want to date two girls simultaneously, so don't blame the russian for flying into a fury. futhrermore if the final bidder of the MRCA project is not russian, drastical increased price of MKIs is expectable.
 
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The amount for the carrier also includes many side deals that are not made public.
 
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you need to be extremely good if you want to date two girls simultaneously, so don't blame the russian for flying into a fury. futhrermore if the final bidder of the MRCA project is not russian, drastical increased price of MKIs is expectable.

Problems with the Gorshkov came to light much before the Indians were cosying up to the US. The Russian contender Mig35 does not have much of a chance in the MRCA contract. To offset their disappointment, India is purchasing an additional 50 MKI's (at no super infalted cost) and have various other military ventures underway such as the PAK-FA, Mig 29K, Medium Transport, etc.
 
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The amount that india has to pay for these ACs is not as big a conern as would be their maintenance and dependence on suppliers for upgrades and repairs.

Lets wait and see what happens with india...

The amount spent on maintenance should not be out of the ordinary. The IN operates various other Russian ships/subs and there is no reason why the costs would be extraordinarily higher then normal. Moreover, a reason for the higher initial capital cost is that the carrier was basically stripped down for extensive repairs and has new parts and machinery. Also as with other platforms, western radars and weaponry are being integrated in the INS Vikramaditya as well.

However, you may be right, we'll have to wait and see.
 
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Problems with the Gorshkov came to light much before the Indians were cosying up to the US. The Russian contender Mig35 does not have much of a chance in the MRCA contract. To offset their disappointment, India is purchasing an additional 50 MKI's (at no super infalted cost) and have various other military ventures underway such as the PAK-FA, Mig 29K, Medium Transport, etc.

come to light is one thing, increasing price and delaying are quite another.

russian is damn damn good at it, so dont count your chicken before thry are hatched.
 
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come to light is one thing, increasing price and delaying are quite another.

russian is damn damn good at it, so dont count your chicken before thry are hatched.

As said earlier, this issue was a thorn in Indo-Russian relations but has not been sorted out. There were genuine problems in underestimation of work to be done on the carrier (read up in detail on wiki/google on the entire deal) which Russia could not foot as it is not cash rich unlike in the Soviet era.

As far as counting your chicken before they hatch is concerned, you guys have a PhD in that. J10B, JF17 blk 2,3,..., Jxx, F16's, U214, etc. Let these things land on Pakistan soil and then talk.

Sorry to be a lil blunt.:cheers:
 
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Soviet Carrier Turns Into India's White Elephant
By PRATAP CHAKRAVARTY, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 1 Aug 2009 10:25

NEW DELHI - When Russia gave India a retired Soviet aircraft carrier five years ago, New Delhi was delighted - little realizing the vessel would turn into a costly white elephant.

Russia, India's longtime weapons supplier, said in 2004 it would give the country the 44,570-ton "Admiral Gorshkov" as a gift, provided Delhi paid a Russian shipyard $974 million to refurbish the carrier.
Since then, the price has skyrocketed for fixing up the 27-year-old ship, which was decommissioned after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In 2007, Russia demanded $850 million more, citing cost escalations.

Then, six months ago, Russia startled India with another demand - this time for 2.9 billion dollars.

It also pushed back the ship's delivery by four years to 2012 - a year after India must mothball its last remaining aircraft carrier, the British-origin INS Viraat.

Now India's national auditor has waded into the row, saying the navy could have paid less for a new carrier.

"At best, the Indian navy would be acquiring, belatedly, a second-hand ship with a limited lifespan by paying significantly more than what it would have paid for a new ship," it said in its military spending report.

The Russian price hikes have sparked outrage, forcing India's Defence Minister A.K. Antony to assure parliament this week that fresh negotiations were once again under way.

"At present, the price escalation is in the negotiation stage and nothing has been finalised," Antony said, but he conceded India was paying "a substantially huge price" for the Admiral's refit.

New Delhi has already paid hundreds of millions of dollars in advance to Russia's state-run Sevmash shipyard.

"It's no doubt giving India a severe headache but we're stuck with it because if we pull out now, we don't get back a penny," said retired Gen. V. N. Sharma, a former chief of India's million-plus army.

India must also dig deeper into its pocket for tens of millions of dollars extra to equip the docked Admiral Gorshkov with Sukhoi-30 warjets and Russian missiles, officials say.

Russia's state-run defence export agency Rosoboronexport, which is handling the deal, has rejected suggestions that it is short-changing India.

"Every step in the process of the refit of the aircraft carrier is monitored by the Indian navy's technical team and they have never raised objections," spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko was quoted as saying by the Press Trust of India.

The shipyard refitting the vessel has insisted that the cost escalations are due to Indian demands for features not included in the original contract.

Minister Antony says New Delhi, which is trying to build an aircraft carrier of its own, was forced to turn to Russia as no other country would give India a tactical vessel of such a size.

Russia, which accounts for 70 percent of India's military hardware, has up to $9 billion worth of defense orders from New Delhi in the pipeline.

General Sharma said he believes the Russians "grossly miscalculated when writing up this contract in 2004".

But retired Rear Adm. Raja Menon, who was associated with the project, said he believes Russia is seeking to get as much out of India as it can.

He said Moscow is in the habit of arm-twisting its traditional weapons buyers.

"Russia's track record is very poor in this regard and this time the nation has to take a call on this," he said.

"In other contracts too they had escalated costs and thought they could get away with it again," Menon said.



Regards::bunny:

I very much doubt officials say that, since the modified Gorshkov in Indian service will operate Mig-29K. And if it were Sukhoi's then Su-33 rather than Su-30. So much for well informed sources ...
 
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since the souring of relations because of Gorshokov India has:
leased Akula, bought more t-90's ,bought more MIG-29, did MIG-29 upgrades,collaborated on chandradayaan 2, collaborated on ATV, bought more sukois, and started work on Brahmos 2 , and getting ready to test PAK-FA,if this is what happens when relations go sour what can we expect when relations improve??
 
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