Indian Muslims and Liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

[Joe Shearer]

Indian Muslims and liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

Muslims love Hindu liberals conditionally, and together they hate the microscopic Muslim liberals unconditionally.

theprint.in

 

[Joe Shearer]

@niaz
@fatman17
@SQ8

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@AgNoStiC MuSliM
@saiyan0321

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@Chak Bamu
@Indus Pakistan

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@ps3linux
@Dil Pakistan
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@xeuss
@cloud4000
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@DalalErMaNodi
@Bilal9
@Xerxes22

 

[Iltutmish]

So more domesticated Muslims are needed in India, who are liberal (= totally indifferent towards Islam, only Arabic or Persian names)?

When the white masters demand liberalism we should become liberals, right? Don’t we - and this includes Hindus too - have an own culture, history, religion and codes of conduct? Why must we become copies of the West?

I don’t like liberals either, in the West they try to use minorities for political gain and some Muslims fall for it because they are so desperate that everybody who has a slightly positive attitude towards Islam becomes their super hero. Even though they promote things that are not only alien to Islam but also totally against it. Sorry we don’t Need the LGBTQGJGIPUYZ-People to be successful, we don’t need politicians to tell us that we are victims and need their protection. This mentality and state worship is the reason why some Muslims don’t prosper in the West!

Muslims need to grow a spine and stop this submissive behavior. Seriously.

PS: Liberalism is not a synonym for everything good in this world. Check the history of the French Revolution for example how liberals treated people if they weren’t as „liberal“ as them. The Guillotine is a powerful tool to persuade someone, right? And now we have the same people forcing other people to become like them.

 

[jamahir]

@Joe Shearer, I will return to the OP at 3 PM. At the moment I am helping my mother in preparing haleem.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Indian Muslims and liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

Muslims love Hindu liberals conditionally, and together they hate the microscopic Muslim liberals unconditionally.

theprint.in

UCC is gonna make it more toxic. lol.
So called "liberals" are using Muslims for their agenda. And Muslims don't have any other choice but support liberalism killing their own religious ethics.

 

[jamahir]

@Joe Shearer, though the writer seems to lean a bit towards the majority right ( "Atmanirbhar Bharat" ) I agree with his points.

I will recall that Keralite professor whose hand was chopped off by Muslim right-wingers ten years ago, more precisely by the PFI group ( which BTW is the parent organization of the SDPI party responsible for the recent Bangalore riots ). The PFI did this act because the professor alleged did "huzoor ke shaan me ghustakhi". The Kerala government, led by the communists, failed to take action against this right-wing group. The proper action would have been to ban PFI and SDPI.

Then there is the placement of the word "Liberal" which would be to the left of center or in the case of the Congress party, SP, BSP etc, in the center. These Centrist parties all these decades kow-towed to the regressive, right-wing elements among the Muslims for the sake of maintaining a secure vote bank.

Unlike Eastern progressive countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya, the Indian Constitution certainly spoke of Secularism and Progressivism but did not make them defining elements of society. Therefore for four decades an uncertain Secularism and tattered Progresssivism carried on in India until the Ram Janmabhoomi movement in the 1980s. Many of the middle-class Hindus who were not invested in thinking of bringing India to a progressive governance, combined with uncaring elements among Muslims who lived in ghettos and became the face of the Indian Muslim, combined to the eventual bringing to power of the BJP at national level. The Communist Party of India had eight founders and four of them were Muslims. This was in 1920. For some decades, some intellectual Muslims were the face of Islam in India until fiascos like the Shah Bano case brought dormant Muslim right-wingers to influential prominence. For example, the Tablighi Jamaat has been quite prominent for the last 15 years.

It is certainly a failure of Indian Muslim intellectuals that unlike their counterparts in Afghanistan and Pakistan they didn't try to get themselves into governance position. And it is failure that the progressive movements in India failed to put Muslims as their faces to counter the regressives among the Indian Muslims. But I am hopeful for the near-future because of young Indian Muslim progressives like Shehla Rashid and Umar Khalid. It is also nice that the veteran Kashmiri communist leader, M.Y.Tarigami still has a support base in Kashmir.

 

[Protest_again]

UCC is gonna make it more toxic. lol.
So called "liberals" are using Muslims for their agenda. And Muslims don't have any other choice but support liberalism killing their own religious ethics.

I am waiting for UCC bill. It's fun to watch liberals come up with absurd arguments to make their point, yet loosing anyway.

 

[El Sidd]

UCC is gonna make it more toxic. lol.
So called "liberals" are using Muslims for their agenda. And Muslims don't have any other choice but support liberalism killing their own religious ethics.

Muslim is a liberal first, Indian later

 

[cloud4000]

Indian Muslims and liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

Muslims love Hindu liberals conditionally, and together they hate the microscopic Muslim liberals unconditionally.

theprint.in

Excellent article.

Says that even Indian Muslims are sick and tired of paternalistic liberals, whose intentions might be good but the policies to achieve them seem to have backfired and, as a result, no one is happy. Neither the majority nor the minority.

The core problem is that Indian secularism, which has been one of India's founding principles and enshrined in its constitution, has been a complete failure. Instead of communal harmony and peace, India got the following: 1) The marginalization of minorities, which is the opposite of what secularism was to achieve and 2) the rise of Hindutva/BJP/RSS, which I think is a response to this failed Indian secularism. This is one of the main complaints of Hindu nationalists, that minorities, especially Muslims, have been coddled by liberals at the expense of Hindus. This may not be completely true, but it's the dominant feeling of Hindu nationalists.

Who to blame? One can blame Congress, but that's beating a dead horse. The current government is an ideal position to fix these structural problems but it has doesn't so. Once you bank on the religious card for electoral gain, it's hard to change direction.

So what to do? The author offers this hint in his last paragraph:

How did liberalism come to this when it had been the byword for everything progressive, humanistic, secular, democratic, reformative and transformative; and a default opposite of obscurantism, regression and totalitarianism? It is for these reasons that Indian Muslims’ relationship with so-called liberals has started yielding diminishing returns in politics today. Either liberalism gets a makeover, or the relationship is re-invented, or the Muslim community begins to invest in its own liberals.

The problem is that Muslims have invested in their own liberals, it just that their voice is being drowned out by their leadership composed mostly of conservatives and fundamentals, who are keen on holding on to their Muslim identity at the expense of Indian identity.

Today in India, religion seems to be the primary identifier of what being Indian means. Our goal is to make it a secondary identifier. But this will require a holistic change to accomplish.

 

[vi-va]

Excellent article.

Says that even Indian Muslims are sick and tired of paternalistic liberals, whose intentions might be good but the policies to achieve them seem to have backfired and, as a result, no one is happy. Neither the majority nor the minority.

The core problem is that Indian secularism, which has been one of India's founding principles and enshrined in its constitution, has been a complete failure. Instead of communal harmony and peace, India got the following: 1) The marginalization of minorities, which is the opposite of what secularism was to achieve and 2) the rise of Hindutva/BJP/RSS, which I think is a response to this failed Indian secularism. This is one of the main complaints of Hindu nationalists, that minorities, especially Muslims, have been coddled by liberals at the expense of Hindus. This may not be completely true, but it's the dominant feeling of Hindu nationalists.

Who to blame? One can blame Congress, but that's beating a dead horse. The current government is an ideal position to fix these structural problems but it has doesn't so. Once you bank on the religious card for electoral gain, it's hard to change direction.

So what to do? The author offers this hint in his last paragraph:



The problem is that Muslims have invested in their own liberals, it just that their voice is being drowned out by their leadership composed mostly of conservatives and fundamentals, who are keen on holding on to their Muslim identity at the expense of Indian identity.

Today in India, religion seems to be the primary identifier of what being Indian means. Our goal is to make it a secondary identifier. But this will require a holistic change to accomplish.

Your point is valid. But it's just unrealistic, or to say overwhelmingly idealistic.

India by and large an artificial state. That's fact. You can have universal identity, or you can have India as an artificial state. You can't have both, it's internal contradicted.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Indian Muslims and liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

Muslims love Hindu liberals conditionally, and together they hate the microscopic Muslim liberals unconditionally.

theprint.in

The article can be summarised as "Evil Muzlims". All the ills are due to the bad effect of muslims and the liberals cocooning them while the "good muslim" like him being shut up.


However the author gladly removes the idea of institutionalised racism held within the country. That is why even today most posts are dominated by upper castes in every sphere where Dalits and muslims can hardly entry a kind of exclusive club reserved only for them. And these same thing is happening not only in India but outside India too recent incidents in CISCO is glaring proof of that . These people in power make the system as such it is really tough for a person who does belong to their exclusive club to penetrate there and the vicious cycle continues.


No matter what rather than depending on these so called "hindu" or " muslim" liberals muslims should just focus on themselves build a community set up to help each other and make their financial condition better to make their voice heard as well as keep a firm grip on religion. These so called " muslim " intellectuals are far more dangerous than others even the right wingers cause there you know the enemy but when the enemy is within then it is hard to fight. .

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

@Joe Shearer, though the writer seems to lean a bit towards the majority right ( "Atmanirbhar Bharat" ) I agree with his points.

I will recall that Keralite professor whose hand was chopped off by Muslim right-wingers ten years ago, more precisely by the PFI group ( which BTW is the parent organization of the SDPI party responsible for the recent Bangalore riots ). The PFI did this act because the professor alleged did "huzoor ke shaan me ghustakhi". The Kerala government, led by the communists, failed to take action against this right-wing group. The proper action would have been to ban PFI and SDPI.

Then there is the placement of the word "Liberal" which would be to the left of center or in the case of the Congress party, SP, BSP etc, in the center. These Centrist parties all these decades kow-towed to the regressive, right-wing elements among the Muslims for the sake of maintaining a secure vote bank.

Unlike Eastern progressive countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya, the Indian Constitution certainly spoke of Secularism and Progressivism but did not make them defining elements of society. Therefore for four decades an uncertain Secularism and tattered Progresssivism carried on in India until the Ram Janmabhoomi movement in the 1980s. Many of the middle-class Hindus who were not invested in thinking of bringing India to a progressive governance, combined with uncaring elements among Muslims who lived in ghettos and became the face of the Indian Muslim, combined to the eventual bringing to power of the BJP at national level. The Communist Party of India had eight founders and four of them were Muslims. This was in 1920. For some decades, some intellectual Muslims were the face of Islam in India until fiascos like the Shah Bano case brought dormant Muslim right-wingers to influential prominence. For example, the Tablighi Jamaat has been quite prominent for the last 15 years.

It is certainly a failure of Indian Muslim intellectuals that unlike their counterparts in Afghanistan and Pakistan they didn't try to get themselves into governance position. And it is failure that the progressive movements in India failed to put Muslims as their faces to counter the regressives among the Indian Muslims. But I am hopeful for the near-future because of young Indian Muslim progressives like Shehla Rashid and Umar Khalid. It is also nice that the veteran Kashmiri communist leader, M.Y.Tarigami still has a support base in Kashmir.

Yeah so called oasis of human civilization in Iraq , Syria and Iraq. These maniacs destroyed everything to kepp themselves forever in power.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The article can be summarised as "Evil Muzlims". All the ills are due to the bad effect of muslims and the liberals cocooning them while the "good muslim" like him being shut up.


However the author gladly removes the idea of institutionalised racism held within the country. That is why even today most posts are dominated by upper castes in every sphere where Dalits and muslims can hardly entry a kind of exclusive club reserved only for them. And these same thing is happening not only in India but outside India too recent incidents in CISCO is glaring proof of that . These people in power make the system as such it is really tough for a person who does belong to their exclusive club to penetrate there and the vicious cycle continues.


No matter what rather than depending on these so called "hindu" or " muslim" liberals muslims should just focus on themselves build a community set up to help each other and make their financial condition better to make their voice heard as well as keep a firm grip on religion. These so called " muslim " intellectuals are far more dangerous than others even the right wingers cause there you know the enemy but when the enemy is within then it is hard to fight. .

 

[Joe Shearer]

The article can be summarised as "Evil Muzlims". All the ills are due to the bad effect of muslims and the liberals cocooning them while the "good muslim" like him being shut up.

A fair summary. Joe Shearer can't complain about it; however, the original author might.

 

[Joe Shearer]

However the author gladly removes the idea of institutionalised racism held within the country. That is why even today most posts are dominated by upper castes in every sphere where Dalits and muslims can hardly entry a kind of exclusive club reserved only for them. And these same thing is happening not only in India but outside India too recent incidents in CISCO is glaring proof of that . These people in power make the system as such it is really tough for a person who does belong to their exclusive club to penetrate there and the vicious cycle continues.

Again, I have no violent objection to your objection. The deeper problem than religion is caste, but the Muslim doesn't figure directly in this, except as a surrogate for the Dalit to look down upon; THAT theoretical position is sometimes too absurd to stand the bright light of day.

Along with the deeper problem we need to ask ourselves what you have failed to do in your otherwise insightful response - what is it that the man (or woman) of good sense and a belief in human equality is supposed to do?