Indian MoD approves buy of 6 Airbus A330 for Indian AWACS

[Kinetic]

couple of days back there was an advertisement in HindustanTimes by DRDO...they are recruiting scientists, exclusively for SC/ST and OBC people!!!

this is how DRDO works (or forced to work) and then we blame them and talk about private companies to play bigger role in defense!

India under DRDO has no future....at the most we can compete with BD and PAK!

Whats the problem with you? Do you have any idea what are you talking about? From your posts it looks like you are suffering from some kind of sadness.

This is ready and going to be inducted in June this year....

 

[N3oN]

And how does that help the IAF AWACS fleet? Will an A50 pilot or the ground crew on an airbase that operates the A50, be able to operate or repair the A330? Of course not, because they are not trained and most likely not even equipped to do so. Just as the current burden of IAF operating too many different types of fighters is a big problem for their operations, since you can't operate a Mirage 2000 from an Mig 29 airbase.
So adding more types, requires more training and logistics for IAFs every day use in the same operations and when IAF is focusing on reducing that for the fighters and were against 2 types of basic trainers as well, do you really think they like having 3 different types of AWACS?

Yeah you can have a thought like that.. But some one have to start over somewhere and I feel its the right time .. To go self reliant in terms of AWACS.. Why to invest in international market just because of maintainance of three different types of aircraft.. Half of them will be near retirement.. Its a good decision to go for Make in India.
Regarding the DRDOS performance.. We are all expecting to do better this time.

 

[JohnyD]

Whats the problem with you? Do you have any idea what are you talking about? From your posts it looks like you are suffering from some kind of sadness.

yes dude, I know what I am talking, that DRDO is a failed Organization if u look at the broader side of it and one of the reasons for its failure is having incompetent people on board..If they are still hiring scientists who belong to reserved class when they are supposed to compete with the best in the world, what would you say about such an organisation? Believe it or not, DRDO has more failures then success...and that so called success are not far better than even small rivals like Pakistan! ,,name a single project where we have a global superiority achieved due to best efforts of DRDO scientists? now dont tell me Brahmos ,pls!

 

[Kinetic]

yes dude, I know what I am talking, that DRDO is a failed Organization if u look at the broader side of it and one of the reasons for its failure is having incompetent people on board..If they are still hiring scientists who belong to reserved class when they are supposed to compete with the best in the world, what would you say about such an organisation? Believe it or not, DRDO has more failures then success...and that so called success are not far better than even small rivals like Pakistan! ,,name a single project where we have a global superiority achieved due to best efforts of DRDO scientists? now dont tell me Brahmos ,pls!

Forget other projects but we have just completed our own AEW platform. Thats an AESA radar as well. Its a great achievement.

 

[sancho]

Yeah you can have a thought like that.. But some one have to start over somewhere and I feel its the right time .. To go self reliant in terms of AWACS..

But that's the point, we already are self reliant as soon as the current DRDO AWACS based on the Embraer platform can be inducted into operational service! IAF even want more of them and not a new system that is developed and ready only at the end of this decade. So we could simply go for more EMB 145I's now, to fit IAF's requirements, while DRDO could further develop the radar system, with more advanced AESA arrays, different wave bands...and that at a fraction of the costs this program now will eat up. Win-win situation for the defence of the country and the industry, but obviously not prestigious enough for DRDO.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

And how does that help the IAF AWACS fleet? Will an A50 pilot or the ground crew on an airbase that operates the A50, be able to operate or repair the A330? Of course not, because they are not trained and most likely not even equipped to do so. Just as the current burden of IAF operating too many different types of fighters is a big problem for their operations, since you can't operate a Mirage 2000 from an Mig 29 airbase.

Ah well; how many types of aircraft does AI operate? Lets leave Air-Crew aside for now and speak about the AMEs who work on them.
Are you even aware that AMEs can get trained and licensed to be able to work on more than one A/C type when they get A & C certification?
So your contention above does not hold water or air or any other fluids....

Just to illustrate the point even further; let me tell you that an AME who retired from BA (who I happen to know) as a Radar/Comms/Avionics specialist was certified for aircraft types ranging from the Viscount through Tridents through VC-10s, 747s and others right to the Concorde. It is similar for Airframe and Engine MEs.
Since you did not read my original post that you responded to.... I'd written that MRO will increasingly pass on to Pvt Sector facilities now. So their best practices will come into vogue.

Now so far as the IAF is concerned; do you think that the riggers, mechanics and engineers who work on one type of aircraft cannot work on another? Take an example of 9BRD, which is co-located with 2Wing. It handles all of 2Wing's A/C and more.
Ditto for the Naval Yard at Kochi which handles all of the Navy's A/C save the Multi-Engine A/C.

Now for the Air-Crews: have you even heard of "Conversion Training"? Air-Crew routinely convert from one type to another and are even able to maintain Type Ratings across multiple types; whether in AI or the IAF.
Read A/Cdre 'Tickoo' Sen's blog to know how he as an IAF Pilot did that. TPs do that even more often. It is no big deal.
Aviation is not run by accountants who may only have to deal with a particular kind of book-keeping.

 

[IBRIS]

Does airbus offers A to A refueling probes.?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Does airbus offers A to A refueling probes.?

Yeah, on the Airbur A-330 MRTT.

 

[IBRIS]

Yeah, on the Airbur A-330 MRTT.

Which part of the craft the probe is attached for it to be fed to fuel while airborne. Can you post the link or photo.?

 

[sancho]

Ah well; how many types of aircraft does AI operate?

Again nobody cares, because the appropirate question would be, can an AI A320 pilot operate Boeing 747? Or can an a local AI hub that is equiped with 737 spares, suddenly repair an A330? The answer is no! Because that requires additional training and equipment and the same is the case in IAF. That's why an A50 pilot won't be able to operate an A330 unless he got extra training, that's why you can't even operate both aircrafts from the same air base, if the base is not equipped for it.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Which part of the craft the probe is attached for it to be fed to fuel while airborne. Can you post the link or photo.?

The IAF has standardised on the "Hose and Drogue" method of Refuelling, unlike the USAF's "FlyingBoom" method, So the re-fuelling stations on the MRTT will be 3: 2 on the wings and 1 at the tail; like the IL-78 Midas tankers with the IAF.

Again nobody cares, because the appropirate question would be, can an AI A320 pilot operate Boeing 747? Or can an a local AI hub that is equiped with 737 spares, suddenly repair an A330? The answer is no! Because that requires additional training and equipment and the same is the case in IAF. That's why an A50 pilot won't be able to operate an A330 unless he got extra training, that's why you can't even operate both aircrafts from the same air base, if the base is not equipped for it.

Oh yes; an A320 Pilot if he has Type ratings for the B747, he can. Just as the AI local hubs have spares for all the A/C that can operate and turn-around on that airfield.

You are still obtuse as ever, just read through my entire post instead of reading and quoting only one line. So far as (in your own words) "Again nobody cares" speak only for yourself! After that your allegedly "appropriate" question turns out to be rather in-approprite and meaningless as I have explained: about Multiple Type Ratings.

Now a question for you: the IAF Base which hosts 2 Wing that I used as an illustration in my earlier post: how many types of IAF aircraft, do you think can it operate and maintain?

 

[browser]

Great move in my opinion.

The Il 76 plane is outdated and in any case new planes are no longer available.

India needs 12-15 additional planes in the next 10 years so it makes sense to use this A330 as a platform rather than have to switch midway.

 

[sancho]

Oh yes; an A320 Pilot if he has Type ratings for the B747, he can.

IF, but that's not the standard, just as it's not standard in IAF to train the pilots for all types in the fleet. That's why it's simply pointless that you try to distract to AI or MRO, when the simple fact is, that the standard training or operational equipment is limited. So if you want me to quote more of your post, try to focus on the topic at hand, which is the AWACS fleet of IAF and the operational outcomes of having 3 different types of aircrafts and 3 different radar systems in the same role!

Now a question for you: the IAF Base which hosts 2 Wing that I used as an illustration in my earlier post: how many types of IAF aircraft, do you think can it operate and maintain?

Just as you said, all of the 2 wings, but these A330 AWACS won't be used from the same airbase as the A50 Phalcons, just as the EMB 145Is are meant to be based at other air bases and the air bases won't be equipped to operate all 3 types of AWACS. That's even the point that IAF is making for years, that the logistical burden have to be reduced, by reducing the numbers of tyes in the fleet, especially in the same roles, that's why 3 different AWACS will be counter productive just as 2 different basic trainers are.

 

[sathya]

AWACS is core tech that drdo must pursue.. No doubt on that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Or can an a local AI hub that is equiped with 737 spares, suddenly repair an A330? The answer is no!

Sir this is a rather nonsensical scenario you have devised that is self-serving but non-existent in the real world, there is no such thing as a "737 only" AI hub, all their major MRO hubs are by nature multi-platform equipped and this best practice is found the world over in all leading airlines why would the IAF be any different?

That's why an A50 pilot won't be able to operate an A330 unless he got extra training, .

BUT an IAF A330 MRTT pilot would be able to fly the IAF's A330 AWACS fleet and considering the A330 is going to outlive the IL-76/78 of the IAF and by some margin in the IAF's service (IL-76's replacement is already in service and the MoD is soon to place orders for the A330 MRTTs) and the A330 ( as MRTTs and AWACS, potentially even the next Air India One) will vastly outnumber the IL-76/78/A-50 in service then this is all a moot point as far as training and logistics go- the A330 is the logical choice for the AWACS (India) project.

that's why you can't even operate both aircrafts from the same air base, if the base is not equipped for it.

but these A330 AWACS won't be used from the same airbase as the A50 Phalcons, just as the EMB 145Is are meant to be based at other air bases and the air bases won't be equipped to operate all 3 types of AWACS.

Another moot point sir because the IAF will be setting up the requisite infrastructure to operate their A330s across many of their airbases and given the A330's proliferation with domestic airlines and foreign airlines operating in India I would dare say there are FAR more airports/bases in India (and around the world) able to operate/support the A330s than the vintage and rare IL-76/78/A-50.

which is the AWACS fleet of IAF and the operational outcomes of having 3 different types of aircrafts and 3 different radar systems in the same role!

This is so simple sir, the IAF has a requirement for far more AWACS than it currently has in service (3 with 2 more soon to join) however the in-service/soon to be in-service products have their drawbacks:

-EL/W-2090 Phalcon- VERY expensive and in IAF service mated to the A-50 which has low availability (thanks Russia), is more expensive to operate than the A330 ( fewer spares, 4 vs 2 engines, less automated, more maintenance intensive, higher AOG rates etc etc)
-EMB-145 CABS AWACS- limited range/endurance, limited coverage (270" as compared to 360" on the Phalcon/AWACS (India))

The DRDO's AWACS (India) on the A330 MRTT addresses all of the above and is made in India to boot that brings about all the advantages you can imagine when it comes to such sensitive tech. The radar will have the full 360" coverage and mated to the highly fuel efficient, very modern, highly regarded A330 that is in widespread service across the world is win win win (the last win being that it is made in India and apart from this being a plus as far as Op Sec goes I truly believe there will be a large market for the AWACS (India) A330 not only from developing nations but also from developed nations like France and the UK who need to replace their E-3s sooner or later).


What would you offer by way of a solution to the above issues sir? More highly expensive and foreign Phalcons on the troubled A-50 platform?