Indian Army Against Deal With Pakistan On Kashmir Glacier

[Owais]

Indian Army Against Deal With Pakistan On Kashmir Glacier



New Delhi: India's army chief Thursday ruled out any immediate troop withdrawals from a disputed Himalayan glacier as part of ongoing talks with arch-rival Pakistan.

"We should not call it demilitarisation as it is a process and the first step will be disengagement and the next will be demilitarisation, but it is not immediately on the horizon as we see," Indian Army Chief J.J. Singh told a news conference.
The statement came as Islamabad continue to discuss the withdrawal of troops from the Siachen glacier -- dubbed the world's highest battlefield where Indian forces currently hold strategically superior positions.
The two countries are scheduled to hold talks next month on Siachen that India's national security adviser said must produce "iron-clad guarantees" to be successful.
Siachen has been "on the anvil for a long time. As far as Siachen is concerned, the issue has been as to how do you authenticate the line where they (troops) are," National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan told Press Trust of India an interview published Thursday.
But any change in troop levels on the Siachen glacier would depend on the outcome of the ongoing talks between the two nuclear-armed rivals, Singh said, adding that the army opposes any quick troop withdrawal but instead wants a step-by-step reduction.
"We have conveyed our concerns and views to the (Indian) government," the general said.
India and Pakistan resumed talks in February 2004 on eight nagging issues including Siachen, where the two fought a bloody battle in 1987, three years after India occupied strategic peaks.
Military experts estimate a 7,000-strong Indian military and 4,000 Pakistani troops are stationed on the 6,300-metre (20,700-foot) icy wasteland in divided Kashmir. Cold claims more lives than actual combat on the glacier.
South Asian neighbours India and Pakistan, who carried out tit-for-tat nuclear weapons tests in May 1998, have fought two of their three wars over Kashmir since their 1947 independence from the British.

 

[vnomad]

The dispute on Siachen is an open-ended one.The line demarkating Siachen was never finalised. Pakistan claims it travels north-east to China while India claims it moves along the Saltoro ridge north-west.

 

[Neo]

On the world's highest battlefield
By Renu Agal
BBC Hindi Service, Siachen

India appears to have ruled out making concessions to Pakistan over the disputed Siachen glacier ahead of talks on Kashmir this week. We look at what life is like for troops stationed there.

On top of the world's highest battlefield, the soldier's biggest foe is the weather.

Bone-chilling winds whip the landscape and avalanches sweep soldiers into 30-foot-deep crevasses.

The harsh sun burns their skin and, combined with the thin air and sub-zero temperatures, can induce acute depression.

Cold statistics tell you that more lives have been lost to the weather than to the enemy since 1984, when the Indian army first occupied the Siachen glacier.

Some 7,000 Indian soldiers are stationed on the disputed glacier - at 5,500 metres above sea level - bordering Pakistani and Indian-administered portions of Kashmir.

Pakistan has some 150 manned posts and about 3,500 soldiers there.

Ironically, Siachen means a land of wild roses but all you see here are some thorny bushes weathering the elements hoping to bloom in April.

It is not easy for a journalist to endure the harsh terrain and the weather of the glacier.

As I walked along a rocky pathway with a grey icy massif on one side and a half frozen stream on the other, the 50-metre trek felt like a mile-long jog. I was catching my breath after every sentence I uttered.

In front was a shrine in the memory of 'OP Baba'. Legend on the Indian side is that Om Prakash protected a post in these icy heights single-handedly from Pakistani fire. No one knows what happened to him, but soldiers here feel that if they have 'OP Baba's' blessings they will survive any situation.

'I am never tired'

Just a few steps away on the icy mountains a training session for soldiers was underway. There were 450 soldiers present.

Rifleman Gyaltsen has been training soldiers here for the past year.

"We tell them how to save someone from a crevasse, how to be aware of crevasses and to cross them and what to do to save yourself from being buried in an avalanche," he says.

I learnt from him that one way to save yourself from being buried in an avalanche is to make swimming movements.

Most soldiers are posted on the higher ridges for just three months. So, the Siachen battle school trains around 7,000 soldiers every year.

One of them, Anshuman Narain, is waiting for lunch after a long morning session.

In the evening he has time to watch films and read his favourite books - "I am never tired."

Other men, clad in white camouflage uniforms with their blood group written on their coats, seem to share his energy.

Breathtaking

The journey to Siachen is as spectacular as the visit to the glacier.

We flew from Delhi in an army plane to the Thoise air base in Ladakh in Indian-administered Kashmir.

The journey offered us some breathtaking views of rugged mountains, jagged crevasses in the glaciers below, blade-like mountain tops and tonnes of boulders which move slowly with the pace of the mammoth glacier.

The crew told us that the last village in Siachen area had just seven houses - beyond that there was only the army.

We saw the Nubra valley, the old Silk Route passing through the Karakoram ranges, and wondered how people managed to survive, let alone trade in these parts.

We landed at Thoise and felt the cold mountain air - there is 30% less oxygen here than normal. We were given heavy coats and woollen caps.

Siachen has seen bitter fighting since 1984.
The soldiers here live in fibreglass huts with fibreglass toilets. There is an officers' lounge and some labourers worked on planting saplings and helping in maintaining the base.

A private carrier brings food and ration, kerosene and fuel for the troops. From Thoise supplies are flown up by helicopters to around 16,000ft (4,876 metres) where over four-fifths of the Indian troops in Siachen are stationed.

There is a famous local saying, "The land is so barren and passes so high that only the best of friends and fiercest of enemies come by.''

The dispute over Siachen, which began more than 20 years ago, is testimony to this saying.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6142632.stm

 

[Bull]

I think India says they will withdraw if pak accepts the current positions,while for pak accepting iy wud legitmise the Indian position which they have contested as a "occupied one" till now.

 

[Contrarian]

the positions in siachen have to be demarcated.
i read in one of the articles that in the aftermath of kargil, there were reports from pakistan mentioning that the loc there was 'hazy' or some such sort. The govt wont make the army leave unless the lines are clearly demarcated.

 

[blain2]

Another stupid reason to prolong the conflict on Siachen in my opinion.

Afaik, Pakistan has agreed to add the current positions in the agreement, however would like the marking of the existing positions to go into the agreement as an addendum/appendix instead of being placed in the main body. Pakistan too has a valid claim that if the current positions go into the main agreement then it legitmizes Indian pre-emption on the glacier.

Both sides must work through this BS and come to terms...this conflict is an utter waste of men and material. I am a Pakistani but must admit that this is the height of stupidity just because our national prides (Pakistani and Indian) get in the way of coming to terms...

 

[MIG_ACE]

India, Pak talk but no headway on Siachen

NEW DELHI: Resuming the derailed dialogue process, India and Pakistan on Wednesday agreed to set up a joint anti-terror mechanism but made little headway on Siachen.

At the end of the two-day foreign secretary-level talks, the two sides decided to set up a three-member anti-terror mechanism to be headed by K C Singh, Additional Secretary in the External Affairs and his Pakistani counterpart Tariq Osman Haider.

Its mandate would be to consider counter-terrorism measures, including the "regular and timely" sharing of information. This was announced at a three-page joint press statement issued after two days of talks between Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon and his Pakistani counterpart Riaz Mohammad Khan here.

Asked whether there was any progress on the Siachen issue, Khan gave no hint of it but instead made a mention of the complexities involved. The statement merely said the two officials exchanged views on Siachen.

"If there is a desire for indication of the present positions, that in any agreement, if at all reached, would be possible to be accommodated. That concern can be met. But if the intention is to seek endorsement of certain claims, then it becomes difficult," he said.

Menon, at a separate press conference, said India has raised the cross-border links to terrorist acts with Pakistan and hoped that the joint anti-terror mechanism will take some action in this regard.

During the talks, India handed over some information to Pakistan about some recent terrorist incidents in India, he added. However, no information was given about the Mumbai blasts because a chargesheet is yet to be filed in the July 11 attack.

Islamabad has been told that it should take action to stop the activities of banned organisations like LeT from undertaking terrorist activities in India, he further said.

Khan said "some material" was give by the Indian side but it did not relate to the Mumbai blasts. The material referred to certain linkages of banned groups in India and Pakistan.

Evidence including documents on the Mumbai blasts hadn’t been given to Pakistan because of the legal process involved. With a chargesheet yet to be filed in Mumbai court, the government did not want to commit contempt of court. But, he maintained, India has been discussing the Mumbai incidents with Pakistan on various occasions.
The press statement said the two sides exchanged views on the Jammu and Kashmir issue "in the spirit" of the Havana decision after talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf.

It was then agreed that the two sides would hold "purposeful" discussions, build on convergences and narrow down divergences.

"They agreed to fully implement measures to enhance interaction and cooperation across the Line of Control including the early operationalisation of truck service for trade on agreed items", the statement said.

Experts from the two countries will meet on December 22-23 to decide on the coordinates for joint survey of Sir Creek and adjoining areas "without prejudice to each other's position, as well as to simultaneously conduct discussions on the maritime boundary".

The joint survey is to be completed by February, 2007.

It was decided that on humanitarian grounds that all fishermen and prisoners of the other country, whose national status stood confirmed and who have completed their sentences, would be released by December 25 this year.

To overcome the complaints of delay in getting visas, the foreign secretaries agreed for an early finalization of an updated visa agreement between both sides.

Menon acknowledged that there was terrorism in Pakistan and said it was upto both the countries to deal with it.

"It is the cross-border links that we raised with Pakistan about acts of terror (committed in India). The joint anti-terror mechanism is one way of dealing with it. We hope it will take some action," he said.

Menon further said that India has conveyed to Pakistan to put an end to activities of groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is banned in both the countries and indulges in acts of terrorism in India. Pakistan has assured India that it would act on specific information given to it, he said.
Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee is expected to visit Islamabad in December or January to formally invite Pakistan for the next SAARC Summit here.

It will be an "important" visit and there will be discussions on all bilateral issues, Khan said.

Khan said at the Havana meeting Pakistan had reiterated the invitation to Prime Minister to visit that country.

"There are no dates (finalised). We hope that this visit will take place. Whenever it takes place, it will be an important event in the bilateral relations."

Menon and Khan will meet in Islamabad in February next year to launch the next round of the Composite Dialogue. The two sides decided to expand the list of shrines under the 1974 bilateral protocol on visits to religious shrines.

The issue of reopening of their Consulates General in Mumbai and Karachi figured during the discussions and both sides expressed their keenness to do so quickly.
Source:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indo-Pak_talks_No_headway_on_Siachen/articleshow/456679.cms

 

[Goodperson]

Another stupid reason to prolong the conflict on Siachen in my opinion.

Afaik, Pakistan has agreed to add the current positions in the agreement, however would like the marking of the existing positions to go into the agreement as an addendum/appendix instead of being placed in the main body. Pakistan too has a valid claim that if the current positions go into the main agreement then it legitmizes Indian pre-emption on the glacier.

Both sides must work through this BS and come to terms...this conflict is an utter waste of men and material. I am a Pakistani but must admit that this is the height of stupidity just because our national prides (Pakistani and Indian) get in the way of coming to terms...

The name of Topic is deceptive its as if only "Indian Army Against Deal With Pakistan On Kashmir Glacier" .
In such case Pakistan should thank Indian army for not Ruling India

 

[Spring Onion]

Well the Indian government bowing to the pressuer of Indian Army also diminshed the myth that Indian army dosnt medlle of affect the government's decisions.


Anyway if they want to continue with the dispute on siachin it cost them more than us in terms of logistics.

 

[MIG_ACE]

Jana,
In situations like siachen the army's opinion has to be given more importance since they are the ppl who actually put their lives on the line, not the govt. If the IA withdraws tomorrow and pakistan takes advntg by moving in who will be in trouble??? The indian govt.??? They will order the IA to take siachen back.But its theIA soldiers who will have to fight and die .Its no surprise that the IA is not ready to pull back.They want some hard guarrantees b4 it.

 

[MIG_ACE]

Also read this,

Siachen no longer hurts us: Army

Siachen Glacier: Siachen no longer hurts. That's the message from the Indian Army, which has now ensured that none of its troops perishes on the treacherous battlefield.

For the first time since it paratrooped to the Sia La heights in 1984 to pre-empt a Pakistani march into Siachen, the Army finally seems to have the measure of the Glacier.

"There has been no death in the last one year," Dr Latika, a doctor at the High-Altitude Medical Research Centre, said. The ceasefire since 2003 has helped arrive at zero fatality.

It was not Pakistani firing but the Glacier itself, which was the biggest killer of Indian Army men on the world's highest battlefield.

Of the 720 deaths suffered by the Indian Army so far, 60 per cent perished due to the frigid elements at heights up to 22,000 feet. The Army confers on Siachen the respect it would give to a worthy enemy by calling it 'General Glacier'.

Although survival continues to be a challenge, some astute medical management has enabled the Army to defy 'General Glacier'.

The provision of mobile hyperbaric chambers at all posts, which enable sick soldiers to be subjected to a sea-level atmospheric pressure and quick evacuation, is the key to survival.

"Once an Armyman has developed hi-altitude pulmonary edema, if inclement weather conditions do not permit immediate evacuation, he can survive in this bag (mobile hyperbaric chambers). It is a life-saving thing," Dr Latika explains.

So, as India and Pakistan consider de-militarisation, the Army is conveying to New Delhi that it is under no mortal pressure to withdraw. The Army's ruggedness has kept India's options open on Siachen. And the Army's case for staying put is now backed up by a feat in casualty management.

There was an impression that prolonged deployment on this frozen frontier is hurting the Army. But by achieving a near-zero casualty rate, the Army has demonstrated that it can dig in for as long as it takes.

Source: http://www.ibnlive.com/news/army-finally-measures-up-gen-glacier/26245-3.html

 

[Srirangan]

Jana, you say that the Govt. of India bowed to the Indian army. I beg to differ.

In fact I'ld like to point out that it is the Pakistan Army that runs the entire country as a fiefdom, so you need to have some nerve to blame the Indian Army for anything.

About Siachen, I've explained my take on it before. Pakistan won't be getting any concessions - not from the Govt. nor from the Army. India is in a position of strength and the demilitarization will happen on Indian terms ie. the demarcation of the Actual Ground Positions.

 

[Contrarian]

Anyway if they want to continue with the dispute on siachin it cost them more than us in terms of logistics.

nope, it hurts Pakistan much more to have a frontier in Siachen than it does to India. India spends moer tehre, as we have more people there, but our economy can take that easily. It is a bigger drain on Pakistan's resources wrt its economy.

 

[Spring Onion]

Jana, you say that the Govt. of India bowed to the Indian army. I beg to differ.

In fact I'ld like to point out that it is the Pakistan Army that runs the entire country as a fiefdom, so you need to have some nerve to blame the Indian Army for anything.

Sri we dont deny that Pakistan Army is very much our own and they had the right to run the country we dont mind.

in case of india its weired cuz its u guys who claim that Indian army has no role in politics it clearly exposed the myth

About Siachen, I've explained my take on it before. Pakistan won't be getting any concessions - not from the Govt. nor from the Army. India is in a position of strength and the demilitarization will happen on Indian terms ie. the demarcation of the Actual Ground Positions.

We are not in hurry

 

[Srirangan]

Do you really think Kasuri would have gotten his wish if the Army hadn't spoken out? LOL!

Pretty optimistic there. Nice to see you jump and blame the Indian Army for "interfering with politics". ROFL! Lovely!