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Indian Air Force's RFI for IJT is a joke : HAL

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IAF’s RFI for IJT is a Joke : Hal official | idrw.org









India Issues RFI For Intermediate Jet Trainers | Defense content from Aviation Week


Saddled with obsolete training aircraft, the Indian air force (IAF) has decided to snub the long-delayed, indigenous HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) and purchase new trainers from abroad.
The IAF has issued a request for information for a lightweight, single-engine, twin-seat trainer with a secondary light attack capability, an official at India’s ministry of defense says.
“We have asked the vendors to provide cost details for the direct purchase of IJTs for batch sizes of 10, 20, 30 and 50 aircraft,” he says.
The RFI comes weeks after Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony said the much-delayed Sitara IJT is likely to be operational this year. “All efforts are being made by the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. [HAL] for achieving the final operational clearance by December 2014,” Antony had said.
The IAF has been reluctant to exercise the option of buying an IJT since the state-run HAL has been developing a trainer for the force for the last 15 years.
“We are forced to take this decision as deadlines for getting the operational clearance for Sitara have been breached on a number of occasions,” the IAF official says.
The RFI for new a IJT states that the aircraft should be capable of operating from airfields at least 2000 meters above mean sea level (AMSL), with a goal of 3,000 meters. Submissions are due on April 4.
The official says the aircraft should be capable of carrying at least 1000 kg (2,200 lb.) of external load and be equipped with a minimum of five hard points, with each stressed to carry at least 300 kg.
“The aircraft should be capable of employing a lightweight gun-pod with adequate ammunition for at least five seconds of firing time [and] reusable rocket pods, and [should] be able to carry at least [four 250-kg bombs],” he says.
IAF also has made it clear that potential vendors will be put through a trial evaluation in India on a “no cost, no commitment” basis and a staff evaluation would be carried out to analyze the results of the field evaluation before shortlisting the equipment for introduction into service.
The deal will include costs for comprehensive annual maintenance support, including all spares program for supporting operations of 10, 20 and 30 aircraft at a utilization rate of 30 hr. per aircraft per month.
The lack of trainer aircraft to train new IAF recruits has been affecting the force, with new pilots often unable to handle highly demanding fighters like MiG-21s. Almost 40% of the 1,050 crashes recorded by the IAF since 1970, for instance, have been attributed to “human error.”
The HJT-36 was to have entered service with the IAF in June 2012 as a Stage-II trainer, replacing the aging HAL Kiran Mk. 1 and Mk. 2 in service. However, in 2011, flight-testing suffered a major setback when a Sitara crashed in stall testing.
Kiran Mk-I was due to be phased out this year but its lifespan has been extended by four years. Maintenance of Kiran Mk II has become a major issue because no support for its Opheus engine was available.
“IJT is a delayed project, I admit... We have faced major delays in getting the new Russian engines for IJT. These issues have been sorted out...Now, the aircraft’s development is in “advanced stages of certification with more than 800 test flights completed so far,” HAL Chairman R.K. Tyagi told Aviation Week recently.
Indian fighter pilots are trained in three stages: first on a basic trainer aircraft, then on an IJT and finally on an advanced jet trainer.
While the IAF does its basic training in the 26 Pilatus PC-7 Mk. 2s, out of a total order for 75 aircraft; the advanced jet trainer role is filled by BAE Systems Hawk 132s, which HAL is making under licenced production in India.
HAL also is trying to develop its own HTT-40 turboprop for the basic trainer role.
As per estimates, with 240 new trainee pilots joining the service every year, IAF requires 181 basic trainers, 85 IJTs and 106 advanced jet trainers. India has already inducted the bulk of the 123 Hawks ordered for its air force and naval pilots in an overall project worth around 160 billion rupees ($2.8 billion).
The IAF has signed two contracts with HAL for delivery of 12 limited-series-production IJT aircraft and 73 series-production IJT aircraft. HAL has confirmed the delivery of aircraft in a phased manner after initial operational clearance is granted. HAL was approved to receive 1.80 billion rupees in July 1999 to develop the aircraft and build two flying prototypes.
 
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For Timeline as with regards to various developments ...see

May day: India’s New Basic & Intermediate Flight Trainers







Why is IAF so keen on scuttling HAL's indigenous trainer aircraft? - Rediff.com India News

An IAF "request for information" floated on the MoD website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers. Ajai Shukla reports
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The Indian Air Force continues its quest to hand Pilatus Aircraft Ltd of Switzerland a Rs 6,000 contract for 106 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft, over and above the 75 Pilatus trainers already bought for Rs 3,850 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million).

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is currently developing these 106 trainers in India, a project the IAF is sparing no effort to scuttle.

A new IAF "Request for Information" -- a pre-tender enquiry -- floated on the ministry of defence website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers, in partnership with Pilatus. This envisages the import of an unspecified number of BTAs ready built, with the remainder being assembled in India. In MoD's procurement rule book, this is termed a "Buy & Make (Indian)" acquisition.

In floating this RFI, the IAF has openly defied the MoD. In 2009, while giving nod to the acquisition of 181 trainers, Defence Minister A K Antony ruled that 106 trainers would be built in HAL under the "Make" category, while 75 would be imported.
Since then, the IAF has repeatedly sought to subvert this decision. The MoD has confirmed to Business Standard that the 2009 decision to build 106 trainers in HAL, which was taken by the apex Defence Acquisition Council, remains valid.

"This RFI is a preliminary inquiry that the IAF has sent out, presumably to enlighten itself. This doesn't mean that an RfP (Request for Proposal, as a defence tender is called) will be issued," said the MoD spokesperson.

The IAF has consistently resisted HAL's indigenous trainer -- the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40). As Business Standard reported (July 29, 2013, "Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer") former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, wrote personally to Antony, claiming that the HTT-40 would be costlier than the PC-7 Mk II. A cost analysis by Business Standard, however, suggested the HAL trainer would be much cheaper over its service life. The MoD did not accept the air chief's request.

The IAF next asked HAL to scuttle its own BTA project and instead build the PC-7 Mk II trainer in Bangalore with Pilatus technology (October 14, 2013, "IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own"). HAL, which has worked steadily on the HTT-40, flatly rejected this proposition.

Bizarrely, Air Chief Marshal Browne next suggested that the PC-7 Mk II be built in an IAF base repair depots. Admitting that BRDs were meant only to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines, he claimed last October that they could also assemble aircraft. The MoD simply ignored this suggestion, which was hastily rebutted by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal P Kanakaraj.

Now, with Air Chief Marshal Browne having retired and been cleared by the government to be an ambassador, reportedly to Finland, his successor, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has proposed that Indian private companies build the PC-7 Mk II with Pilatus technology.

Industry experts say there is little in this proposal for private Indian companies. With each BTA priced at about Rs 35 crore, the 10 per cent profit margin from building 106 aircraft would be barely Rs 370 crore. This is a small compensation for the costs and risks of a company's first foray into aerospace manufacture.

Meanwhile, HAL continues work on the HTT-40. With MoD funding blocked by the IAF, HAL has already committed Rs 137 crore of its own money; and stands ready to allocate another Rs 200 crore. On a recent visit to HAL, Business Standard was briefed that the design of structural components is done; assembly drawings will be done by April. A first flight is targeted for early 2015.

"We had planned to build one flying prototype of the HTT-40 and one ground test specimen. Now, to speed up design and flight testing, HAL will build three flying prototypes and two ground test models," says Prashantsingh Bhadoria, one of HAL's talented young designers who is deputy head of the HTT-40 project.

HAL designers are confident that, given their major role in developing the Tejas fighter; and the Sitara intermediate jet trainer that is nearly complete, there is little doubt that the company will build a successful basic trainer.

IAF planners know that the procurement cost of an aircraft is just one-fifth to one-tenth of the cost of operating it through its service life. For that reason, an indigenous aircraft is significantly cheaper in the long term than an overseas purchase, where the IAF remains dependent for spares, overhauls and upgrades on foreign vendors who invariably jack up prices after the initial sale. HAL designers say they are ensuring a high degree of commonality in parts and sub-systems between the HTT-40 and the IJT. This will reduce production costs and also ease inventory problems in training establishments.

IAF pilots need three types of trainer aircraft. In Stage-1 training, rookie pilots learn basic flying on aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. Stage-2 training involves more complex flying on aircraft like the Kiran Mark 1, or the Sitara IJT. Stage-3 training, which prepares pilots for occupying the cockpits of frontline IAF fighters, is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, which are built in HAL.
Image: HAL's indigenous trainer -- the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40
 
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HAL screwed itself by wasting years of time, while IAF pilots died waiting for their trainers.

Buy Pilatus, and go from stage 1 to stage 3 training. Scrap IJT training altogether, its not even necessary anymore.
 
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HAL is the joke here.

Taking 30 years for Tejas.

15 years for IJT-36.

Not even started designing HTT-40 basic trainer.

WTF?
:mad:

They deserve this.

Either perform or perish.

I really hope Modi privatizes the management at least.

Make the sarkari wanker bureaucrats work for 15 hours a day.
 
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I think HAL should be given a chance to finish IJT.it was nearly completed before a crash made the project delayed by 3-4 years.plus,its far more cheaper than available aircrafts of its its class.If IAF always wants to buy "The very Best",HAL and other doesn't stand a chance.they've to choose somewhat inferior to give these agencies a chance.those who're "Blaming" HAL,doesn't know on what condition and against what fund they completed these projects.when even highly capable agencies like ISRO couldn't achieve GSLV until recently,how could HAL,who're making these aircrafts from scratch??

our defence force have to choose indigenous products,even if that means sacrificing few capabilities.its not like we're not facing this kind of difficulties from the "Best Products".we lost few SU-30s,top of the line fighter,due to some glitch associated with "Faulty Switch".if that'd happen with HAL,people would crucify them.we lost our first Mig-29K when it was under trial.also,its not like we didn't experience any delay.Scorpene,Talwar Class frigates,INS Viky,not a single project completed "Within Time Frame"(except American Platforms).so why blame HAL??plus,it is very much possible that by when IAF will choose these aircrafts,long before that,HAL Sitara will fly.because,its scheduled to be operational by end of this year.

Indigenous jet trainer 'Sitara' may operate by year-end: AK Antony | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
 
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I think HAL should be given a chance to finish IJT it was nearly completed before a crash made the project delayed by 3-4 years.plus,its far more cheaper than available aircrafts of its its class.If IAF always wants to buy "The very Best",HAL and other doesn't stand a chance.they've to choose somewhat inferior to give these agencies a chance.those who're "Blaming" HAL,doesn't know on what condition and against what fund they completed these projects.when even highly capable agencies like ISRO couldn't achieve GSLV until recently,how could HAL,who're making these aircrafts from scratch??

Bhai, I agree with you. But the problem is that now they are sitting on minimizing the disproportionately large canopy on the jet after making it. Who the hell changes design after making it?

This is the kind of actino that puts off the IAF from choosing local stuff.

our defence force have to choose indigenous products,even if that means sacrificing few capabilities.its not like we're not facing this kind of difficulties from the "Best Products".we lost few SU-30s,top of the line fighter,due to some glitch associated with "Faulty Switch".if that'd happen with HAL,people would crucify them.we lost our first Mig-29K when it was under trial.also,its not like we didn't experience any delay.Scorpene,Talwar Class frigates,INS Viky,not a single project completed "Within Time Frame"(except American Platforms).so why blame HAL??plus,it is very much possible that by when IAF will choose these aircrafts,long before that,HAL Sitara will fly.because,its scheduled to be operational by end of this year.

Till now we have had a regime that encourages imports, panders to European and American firms so vehemently that it had frozen all indigenous development. There was nothing done for the development as many projects are stuck in a limbo and none have completed.

This is what is changing and unless and until the new regime forces these things down the military's throat, they will NEVER accept it with top official favoring imports over indigenous for extra 'paychecks'.
 
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I think HAL should be given a chance to finish IJT.it was nearly completed before a crash made the project delayed by 3-4 years.plus,its far more cheaper than available aircrafts of its its class.If IAF always wants to buy "The very Best",HAL and other doesn't stand a chance.they've to choose somewhat inferior to give these agencies a chance.those who're "Blaming" HAL,doesn't know on what condition and against what fund they completed these projects.when even highly capable agencies like ISRO couldn't achieve GSLV until recently,how could HAL,who're making these aircrafts from scratch??

our defence force have to choose indigenous products,even if that means sacrificing few capabilities.its not like we're not facing this kind of difficulties from the "Best Products".we lost few SU-30s,top of the line fighter,due to some glitch associated with "Faulty Switch".if that'd happen with HAL,people would crucify them.we lost our first Mig-29K when it was under trial.also,its not like we didn't experience any delay.Scorpene,Talwar Class frigates,INS Viky,not a single project completed "Within Time Frame"(except American Platforms).so why blame HAL??plus,it is very much possible that by when IAF will choose these aircrafts,long before that,HAL Sitara will fly.because,its scheduled to be operational by end of this year.

Indigenous jet trainer 'Sitara' may operate by year-end: AK Antony | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
wait 4-5 years , We will offer you jet trainer 8-)
 
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Bhai, I agree with you. But the problem is that now they are sitting on minimizing the disproportionately large canopy on the jet after making it. Who the hell changes design after making it?
This is the kind of actino that puts off the IAF from choosing local stuff.

the reason of it was some "malfunction" its canopy suffered during Aero India.it has some problems due to some "Asymetry".its had some problems regarding "Stall" as well.

Till now we have had a regime that encourages imports, panders to European and American firms so vehemently that it had frozen all indigenous development. There was nothing done for the development as many projects are stuck in a limbo and none have completed.

This is what is changing and unless and until the new regime forces these things down the military's throat, they will NEVER accept it with top official favoring imports over indigenous for extra 'paychecks'.

and thats why I opposed "Foreign Maal".if they choose costly foreign equipments over indigenous equipment,whats the point of labs like HAL in the first place.its not that these labs can't perform.Navy chose for indigenous ships,we got P-17,Arihant,P-15 and homegrown hi tech torpedos.if they'd choose(for example) British Type-45,we'd never going to get P-15 in the first place.thats my point.
 
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Why dont indians just follow Pak Armed Forces and make their military factories under them directly.
 
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wait 4-5 years , We will offer you jet trainer 8-)

and our children will convert it to "Remote controlled mode" to fly it safely..never put trust on some "Lungi Chaap Aircraft". :rofl::rofl::rofl:

don't mind bro..just kidding.we'll say,"thanks but no thanks". :D

Why dont indians just follow Pak Armed Forces and make their military factories under them directly.

are you even familiar with the context???we're building Pilatus and Hawk in India.if we even bought some foreign product,we'd make it in India.but its "Indian Product" we're talking about.

DSC_0294-740261.JPG
 
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and our children will convert it to "Remote controlled mode" to fly it safely..never put trust on some "Lungi Chaap Aircraft". :rofl::rofl::rofl:

don't mind bro..just kidding.we'll say,"thanks but no thanks". :D
lungi se yaad aya we have successfully invaded India with lungi :D dancer dances will lungi during kkr matches in the stadium :D
 
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Why dont indians just follow Pak Armed Forces and make their military factories under them directly.

There has been a discussion over this under the UPA-1 government 6 years ago. Air Chief PV Naik at that time tried to push for HAL to be directly managed by the IAF. But AK Anthony refused flat because of the political insecurities of Congress. It has a penchant for feeling politically insecure because it fears the snatching of power.

For DRDO however, it is not possible because DRDO makes stuff for all the three forces. In order to militarize them, we will need a joint chief of staff which is not there.

Personally those who know defence, know that integrating defence PSUs under the joint Armed forces staff is extremely important.

Our scientists are really good and skilled when they design and develop weapons.

It is the bureaucrats who 'manage' them that are the scum.
 
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lungi se yaad aya we have successfully invaded India with lungi :D dancer dances will lungi during kkr matches in the stadium :D

yup,mimicking "SRK's Lungi dance".one of the greatest chapters of "Indo-BD cooperation".. :enjoy: though I feared about his belt he wore on Lungi. :rofl:
 
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There has been a discussion over this under the UPA-1 government 6 years ago. Air Chief PV Naik at that time tried to push for HAL to be directly managed by the IAF. But AK Anthony refused flat because of the political insecurities of Congress. It has a penchant for feeling politically insecure because it fears the snatching of power.

For DRDO however, it is not possible because DRDO makes stuff for all the three forces. In order to militarize them, we will need a joint chief of staff which is not there.

Personally those who know defence, know that integrating defence PSUs under the joint Armed forces staff is extremely important.

Our scientists are really good and skilled when they design and develop weapons.

It is the bureaucrats who 'manage' them that are the scum.
Well the reason b/w u and us is that whatever we make it does go into our armed forces and is produced in time because our armed forces who r the concern parties control them directly under their command. Hence we r successful then india in this.
 
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