India understands Pak best: Nirupama RaoKaran Thapar , CNN-IBN
Posted on Aug 08, 2010 at 20:37
Pakistan cannot be given a blank cheque on the future of Afghanistan, but India believes dialogue is the most effective means of solving disputes with its neighbouring country, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao has said. In an interview with Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate, Rao said the information made public by the website WikiLeaks was known to India for a long time. "The role of officials agencies from Pakistan in promoting terrorism against India is something we have been speaking of and drawing attention to for a long time now," Rao said. "We understand and we know that country better perhaps than any other country in the world."
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. After WikiLeaks and David Headley, where do India-Pakistan relations stand? That's the subject I shall discuss today in this exclusive interview with the Foreign Secretary, Nirupama Rao.
Foreign Secretary, let's start with Pakistan. Now that we have proofs from WikiLeaks, from Headley, that the Pakistani state is directly and irrefutably involved in instigating and funding terror against India, what's the justification for continuing dialogue with that country?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I think the justification for dialogue is by no means diminished even despite these revelations. I believe that dialogue is the most effective means to tackle outstanding issues with Pakistan and the abandonment of dialogue or the interruption of the dialogue, by no means, serves the interest that we seek to pursue in getting Pakistan to stop its pursuit of terrorism against India. In other words, dialogue is the most intelligent means of addressing points of contention.
Karan Thapar: But if any dialogue to be meaningful, surely you will have to agree that it has to be predicated on the fact that Pakistan accepts what it has been doing and, more importantly, promises not to do it again. That's missing in this case.
Nirupama Rao: Well, Pakistan has from time to time made this commitment to us that it will not permit the pursuit the encouragement of terrorism by groups on its soil or territory under control. I think, over the last few occasions that we have had the opportunity to raise these issues with Pakistan, it's been made very clear to them, very emphatically to them that the atmosphere for the pursuit of this dialogue will never be really conducive until and unless they stop the pursuit of terrorism against India. Therefore, dialogue has served the purpose of putting across out deepest concerns to Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: But dialogue hasn't got you a cessation of terrorism activities from Pakistan. Dialogue hasn't even got Pakistan to accept that their state, in the shape and form of the ISI, is directly involved. Without that acceptance, are you in a sense knocking on a closed door?
Nirupama Rao: Well, to some degree there is an acknowledgement by Pakistan that the pursuit of terrorism directed against India is going to be negative; is going to have a negative impact on the relationship. To that extent I think there is some degree of acknowledgements. Now let's take the Mumbai trials. We have had Pakistan acknowledge that the masterminds and the handlers of these attacks came from Pakistan and we have engaged with Pakistan over the last one year in the exchange of evidence and information relating to the Mumbai terror attacks. So obviously the channels of communication that remained open with Pakistan have served that purpose.
Karan Thapar: Except that has Pakistan come close to acknowledging that members of the state and the establishment - the ISI in particular- as both David Headley has confirmed and WikiLeaks have confirmed, have been directly involved in instigating terror against India. Has that critical acceptance come?
Nirupama Rao: Well, we are still away from that critical acceptance. I acknowledge that. But now, look at the international community, the international response to the role of the agencies connected with the Pakistan state in the pursuit of encouragement of terrorism directed against India, directed against Afghanistan, today we are no longer like Cassandras talking about terrorism emanating from Pakistan. There is a widespread, groundswell of belief and conviction in the stand that we have taken and the acknowledgement by the international community that we are taking the right position --
Karan Thapar: --absolutely, and David Cameron's statement in India in a sense underlines that. I will come to that in a moment's time. Let me bring up first, the second major revelation that has been exposed by WikiLeaks. The fact that the Pakistani ISI has been involved in instigating terror against India in Afghanistan when General Kayani was head of the ISI. Today the same General Kayani is the Army Chief of Pakistan and is going to continue in that post till at least 2013. How do you view General Kayani?
Nirupama Rao: Let me say that the role of official agencies from Pakistan in promoting terrorism against India is something we have been speaking of and drawing attention to a long time now. It is not that the WikiLeaks have come up with that revelations, it's been known to us for the long time. We have said all along that acts of pre-meditated violence against our nationals in Afghanistan is completely unacceptable to us.
Karan Thapar: What about this: many people in Paksitan and in India believe that General Kayani is inimical to this country. He himself has gone on record to say that, under him, the Pakistan Army will be India-centric. Does the foreign office share that assessment?
Nirupama Rao: You know we had 60 years of a trouble relationship with Pakistan. And I think we understand and know that country, perhaps better than any other country in the world. So we see through the glass darkly. No doubt about the state of Pakistan and the condition in which this relationship is operating now. So to that extent, we understand the role of Pakistani state agencies in promoting terrorism against India.
Karan Thapar: So there is nothing about General Kayani that you don't understand. It's just that you may not want to say it publicly.
Nirupama Rao: I think we understand the nature of these institutions and the personalities behind them, very clearly.
Karan Thapar: On the other hand, he is far and way the most important person in Pakistan. Is there a need for India to try and establish some direct line of contact with him?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I have been asked that question on a number of occasions. My answer to that is that we have dealt, we continue to deal with and we will continue to deal with the civilian democratic government in Pakistan, the elected representatives of the people there and the civilian officials concerned. That is the interface that we have adopted.
Karan Thapar: But you won't side-by-side seek to open some line of contact with the military leadership of Kayani as well?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I think I am not prepared to talk about it at the moment. But let me say that the interface, as it exists, is with the civilian government.
Karan Thapar: Let's widen our discussion. Given the nature of leaks that we have had, both from WikiLeaks and David Coleman Headley, is it still sensible for India to rely on America to curb Pakistan?
Nirupama Rao: I think the strategic partnership with the United States of America is of undoubted importance. There are no two opinions about that. And the cooperation that we have engaged in with the United States in a number of sectors including counter-terrorism is being taken forward. But having said that, we are not dependent on any third country when it comes to transacting relations with Pakistan. We deal directly with Pakistan. Bilateral issues are taken up bilaterally.
Karan Thapar: You mentioned the strategic relationship. Many people feel that, in fact, Headley revelations and WikiLeaks shows that the credibility of America as a strategic partner might be under some sort of question today. Has America kept India informed? Did they do everything to curb terror or were aware of things they didn't share or didn't respond to?
Nirupama Rao: I think the manner in which we have been able to take this dialogue forward with United States, the kind of cooperation that we have engaged in counter-terrorism has been of mutual benefit. There's no doubt about that.
Karan Thapar: Let's then talk about the developing situation in Afghanistan. Many analysts believe that as the situation becomes increasingly adverse for America, the Obama administration sees Pakistan as a key to the solution. Do you believe that Obama's increasing dependence on Islamabad will give Pakistan an influence and leverage to work out, or at least determine the final outcome in Afghanistan?
Nirupama Rao: I don't believe you can paint those colours in a zero sum way as far as Afghanistan is concerned. Firstly, Afghanistan is a fiercely independent country and the takeaway that we have had with the Afghan leadership in the recent past is that they are jealous about guarding that independence and in ensuring that the progress that they have made in the last nine years is not eroded in any manner.
Karan Thapar: So, does this mean they will check Pakistani influence themselves?
Nirupama Rao: I believe the international community has to stay committed in Afghanistan for some more time. They are dealing with the war against terror there. That was has to be fought; it has to be won. So I believe that there is a commitment that the international community has to reinforce.
Karan Thapar: I'll tell you why I asked this question. Karzai famously referred to Pakistan as a conjoined twin. Pakistan protects, promotes the Afghan Taliban and is today involved in try to facilitate talks between the Haqqani and Hikmatiyar group and the Karzai government. How does the Indian government view the possibility of Haqqani and Hikmatiyar playing a role in a future Afghan government?
Nirupama Rao: I think here again you are jumping to conclusions before things have happened. The red lines drawn at the London conference on Afghanistan earlier this year are the red lines that the Afghanistan government intends to adhere to and abide by. This has been said to us in a number of occasions. Now the fact is that you have groups within the Afghan Taliban which are obviously close to Pakistan, that promote terrorism, that espouse radical ideologies and I don't believe that given the approach of the Afghan government to adhering by those red lines that this reality or this possible conclusion that you referred to is really going to come about.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the Afghan government has itself been holding, or be it surreptitiously but not by any means secretly, talks with Haqqani group and Hikmatiyar group representatives
Nirupama Rao: Well, I put it this way. I think the situation in Afghanistan, given the operation of so many groups there is complex. But let me say once again that this is a fiercely independent country you are dealing with and the leadership of this fiercely independent country is not going to, I believe, compromise its basic interest in ensuring a strong, stable and united Afghanistan which is not going to be bedeviled by the threat of terrorism.
Karan Thapar: Now, as you know foreign secretary, Pakistan has long wanted what it calls strategic depth in Afghanistan. Many people believe that America today, perhaps out of a certain sense of desperation, is coming close to accepting Pakistan's primacy in Afghanistan. And if that happens, that would be granting strategic depth. If that strategic depth is granted, what would it mean for India? Help us understand what would it mean.
Nirupama Rao: First of all let me tell you this strategic depth is a theory espoused by anybody in the international community. There may be some analysts in Pakistan, some people in Pakistan --
Karan Thapar: --General Kayani talks about it.
Nirupama Rao: Well, they may talk about it but I am talking about the reality. You are talking about an independent country, you are talking about a leadership in Afghanistan that is committed to fighting terrorism; that is committed to maintain its independence. And I think, that leadership needs to be helped in that regard.
Karan Thapar: You don't believe that this talk of conjoined twinship which was Karzai's phrase, and at the same time he referred to India as a friend and not a twin, suggests that there is in fact a movement taking place that India is wary of. You won't share that?
Nirupama Rao: I will be very alert to what happens in Afghanistan. It is a neighbour, we have interest there, and we have interest for a very long time that predates the present situation. So, let me say that being friends with Afghanistan and this is a very deep friendship that cemented by bonds between people and not just governments. And we are confident about our profile in Afghanistan and the fact that our interests will be well recognised by the international community and this is increasingly evident from the dialogue that we have had with our key partners.
Karan Thapar: How do you view the stepped up relationship between America and Pakistan? If you have concerns, have you shared them with Washington? What response have you got?
Nirupama Rao: Well, we have shared our concerns with Washington. We have said all along that Pakistan cannot be given a blank cheque on such matters and any assistance that is extended to Pakistan, ostensibly for counter-terrorism or counter-insurgency operations, could very well be used against India as the history of last 60 years go.
Karan Thapar: And what did Washington say?
Nirupama Rao: Washington is very attentive to our concerns and we have continued our dialogue on this issue. We are engaged in a constant communication with the United States on these issues and I believe that the United States is increasingly aware and alert and attentive to these concerns--
Karan Thapar: --except that arming Pakistan continues as a policy.
Nirupama Rao: Well, there is a situation now in Afghanistan and there is the involvement of the United States in that situation and Pakistan is involved in that entire operation. So there is a certain context now in which all this placed. But nonetheless, our concerns have been articulated very clearly to America.
Karan Thapar: Sounds as if we will have to grit our teeth about things that we don't like.
Foreign Secretary let's come to China. China is India's biggest trading partner and the two countries hope to hit the $ 60 billion target this year. On the other hand, China supports Pakistan over Kashmir. It bends laws to sell nuclear plants to Islamabad whilst it questions India's sovereignty over Arunachal Pradesh and seems to go out of the way to check our emergence as an emerging power. How do you as foreign secretary view China?
Nirupama Rao: It is a complex relationship. There is no doubt about it. But having said that, and especially since we have celebrated the 60th anniversary of our diplomatic relations this year, let me say the approach as we more forward is to ensure, and this is the point of view which is shared by Chinese government, ensure mutual sensitivity to each other's core concerns, as well as seek broader convergence on many global issues. So this is the trajectory along which the relationship is developing.
Karan Thapar: Are they really sensitive to India's concerns: particularly Kashmir, particularly the arming of Pakistan, particularly the supply of nuclear material to Pakistan? Are they--
Nirupama Rao: That's exactly the context I referred to when I spoke of the complexity in relationship. And what is dialogue, intelligently transacted dialogue enable you to do when you seek more responsiveness from the other side about your concerns. This is exactly because we are able to place those issues in context and seek the other side's focus on these issues and greater responsiveness and sensitivity to these issues.
Karan Thapar: The former national security advisor Brijesh Mishra has gone on record to say that he fears that Islamabad and Beijing may be joining forces. And it that happens, India will end up with hostile neighbours both in the north and the west. To what extent do you share that concern?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I knew that there is a lot of analyses on a lot of scenarios that could be applied to the India-China relationship. But here in officialdom, we deal with realities and the reality of the situation is that the border between India and China has been peaceful for the last few decades, and the efforts from both sides is to ensure that the mechanisms that we have put in place for confidence building and maintenance of peace and tranquility work well. And there is constant communication between the two.
Karan Thapar: So are you saying that the fear or the --
Nirupama Rao: --but let me add that this doesn't mean that we are not vigilant about or alert to situations where our security could be affected.
Karan Thapar: So you are aware of the possibility of what, in a loose language, I might call a ganging up between Islamabad and Beijing. You don't turn a blind eye to it.
Nirupama Rao: Well, we take all these factors into account.
Karan Thapar: China today, in fact just 10 days ago, became the world's second largest economy. Does India have any apprehensions or concerns about China's emergence as possibly the second most powerful country in the world
Nirupama Rao: Well, you and I belong to a generation that has been witness to the rise of China, the growth in its economic power, it power projection capabilities, we have been witness to all that. And at the same time, the world is increasingly alert to the rise of India, the potential of India and the rapid economic growth of India --
Karan Thapar: --but the gap between the two is growing not narrowing.
Nirupama Rao: I believe what that point to Karan is the fact that this relationship, the relationship between India and China is going to be the story of the 21st century.
Karan Thapar: The story that will be in India's interest or the story that will make India weary and perhaps, a little apprehensive.
Nirupama Rao: Well, a story based on dialogue, as I said, which we intend to conduct intelligently and which we intend to conduct with confidence so that our concerns are protected.
Karan Thapar: Is China dialoguing with India openly, or are they doing it behind screens?
Nirupama Rao: I believe that is a multi-sectoral dialogue with China on the bilateral front. And if we look at the global multilateral front, there are increasing areas of convergence, I referred to that. And so this is really, as I said, the trajectory along which we hope the dialogue develops.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, a pleasure talking to you.
Nirupama Rao: Thank you so much.
Posted on Aug 08, 2010 at 20:37
Pakistan cannot be given a blank cheque on the future of Afghanistan, but India believes dialogue is the most effective means of solving disputes with its neighbouring country, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao has said. In an interview with Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate, Rao said the information made public by the website WikiLeaks was known to India for a long time. "The role of officials agencies from Pakistan in promoting terrorism against India is something we have been speaking of and drawing attention to for a long time now," Rao said. "We understand and we know that country better perhaps than any other country in the world."
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. After WikiLeaks and David Headley, where do India-Pakistan relations stand? That's the subject I shall discuss today in this exclusive interview with the Foreign Secretary, Nirupama Rao.
Foreign Secretary, let's start with Pakistan. Now that we have proofs from WikiLeaks, from Headley, that the Pakistani state is directly and irrefutably involved in instigating and funding terror against India, what's the justification for continuing dialogue with that country?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I think the justification for dialogue is by no means diminished even despite these revelations. I believe that dialogue is the most effective means to tackle outstanding issues with Pakistan and the abandonment of dialogue or the interruption of the dialogue, by no means, serves the interest that we seek to pursue in getting Pakistan to stop its pursuit of terrorism against India. In other words, dialogue is the most intelligent means of addressing points of contention.
Karan Thapar: But if any dialogue to be meaningful, surely you will have to agree that it has to be predicated on the fact that Pakistan accepts what it has been doing and, more importantly, promises not to do it again. That's missing in this case.
Nirupama Rao: Well, Pakistan has from time to time made this commitment to us that it will not permit the pursuit the encouragement of terrorism by groups on its soil or territory under control. I think, over the last few occasions that we have had the opportunity to raise these issues with Pakistan, it's been made very clear to them, very emphatically to them that the atmosphere for the pursuit of this dialogue will never be really conducive until and unless they stop the pursuit of terrorism against India. Therefore, dialogue has served the purpose of putting across out deepest concerns to Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: But dialogue hasn't got you a cessation of terrorism activities from Pakistan. Dialogue hasn't even got Pakistan to accept that their state, in the shape and form of the ISI, is directly involved. Without that acceptance, are you in a sense knocking on a closed door?
Nirupama Rao: Well, to some degree there is an acknowledgement by Pakistan that the pursuit of terrorism directed against India is going to be negative; is going to have a negative impact on the relationship. To that extent I think there is some degree of acknowledgements. Now let's take the Mumbai trials. We have had Pakistan acknowledge that the masterminds and the handlers of these attacks came from Pakistan and we have engaged with Pakistan over the last one year in the exchange of evidence and information relating to the Mumbai terror attacks. So obviously the channels of communication that remained open with Pakistan have served that purpose.
Karan Thapar: Except that has Pakistan come close to acknowledging that members of the state and the establishment - the ISI in particular- as both David Headley has confirmed and WikiLeaks have confirmed, have been directly involved in instigating terror against India. Has that critical acceptance come?
Nirupama Rao: Well, we are still away from that critical acceptance. I acknowledge that. But now, look at the international community, the international response to the role of the agencies connected with the Pakistan state in the pursuit of encouragement of terrorism directed against India, directed against Afghanistan, today we are no longer like Cassandras talking about terrorism emanating from Pakistan. There is a widespread, groundswell of belief and conviction in the stand that we have taken and the acknowledgement by the international community that we are taking the right position --
Karan Thapar: --absolutely, and David Cameron's statement in India in a sense underlines that. I will come to that in a moment's time. Let me bring up first, the second major revelation that has been exposed by WikiLeaks. The fact that the Pakistani ISI has been involved in instigating terror against India in Afghanistan when General Kayani was head of the ISI. Today the same General Kayani is the Army Chief of Pakistan and is going to continue in that post till at least 2013. How do you view General Kayani?
Nirupama Rao: Let me say that the role of official agencies from Pakistan in promoting terrorism against India is something we have been speaking of and drawing attention to a long time now. It is not that the WikiLeaks have come up with that revelations, it's been known to us for the long time. We have said all along that acts of pre-meditated violence against our nationals in Afghanistan is completely unacceptable to us.
Karan Thapar: What about this: many people in Paksitan and in India believe that General Kayani is inimical to this country. He himself has gone on record to say that, under him, the Pakistan Army will be India-centric. Does the foreign office share that assessment?
Nirupama Rao: You know we had 60 years of a trouble relationship with Pakistan. And I think we understand and know that country, perhaps better than any other country in the world. So we see through the glass darkly. No doubt about the state of Pakistan and the condition in which this relationship is operating now. So to that extent, we understand the role of Pakistani state agencies in promoting terrorism against India.
Karan Thapar: So there is nothing about General Kayani that you don't understand. It's just that you may not want to say it publicly.
Nirupama Rao: I think we understand the nature of these institutions and the personalities behind them, very clearly.
Karan Thapar: On the other hand, he is far and way the most important person in Pakistan. Is there a need for India to try and establish some direct line of contact with him?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I have been asked that question on a number of occasions. My answer to that is that we have dealt, we continue to deal with and we will continue to deal with the civilian democratic government in Pakistan, the elected representatives of the people there and the civilian officials concerned. That is the interface that we have adopted.
Karan Thapar: But you won't side-by-side seek to open some line of contact with the military leadership of Kayani as well?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I think I am not prepared to talk about it at the moment. But let me say that the interface, as it exists, is with the civilian government.
Karan Thapar: Let's widen our discussion. Given the nature of leaks that we have had, both from WikiLeaks and David Coleman Headley, is it still sensible for India to rely on America to curb Pakistan?
Nirupama Rao: I think the strategic partnership with the United States of America is of undoubted importance. There are no two opinions about that. And the cooperation that we have engaged in with the United States in a number of sectors including counter-terrorism is being taken forward. But having said that, we are not dependent on any third country when it comes to transacting relations with Pakistan. We deal directly with Pakistan. Bilateral issues are taken up bilaterally.
Karan Thapar: You mentioned the strategic relationship. Many people feel that, in fact, Headley revelations and WikiLeaks shows that the credibility of America as a strategic partner might be under some sort of question today. Has America kept India informed? Did they do everything to curb terror or were aware of things they didn't share or didn't respond to?
Nirupama Rao: I think the manner in which we have been able to take this dialogue forward with United States, the kind of cooperation that we have engaged in counter-terrorism has been of mutual benefit. There's no doubt about that.
Karan Thapar: Let's then talk about the developing situation in Afghanistan. Many analysts believe that as the situation becomes increasingly adverse for America, the Obama administration sees Pakistan as a key to the solution. Do you believe that Obama's increasing dependence on Islamabad will give Pakistan an influence and leverage to work out, or at least determine the final outcome in Afghanistan?
Nirupama Rao: I don't believe you can paint those colours in a zero sum way as far as Afghanistan is concerned. Firstly, Afghanistan is a fiercely independent country and the takeaway that we have had with the Afghan leadership in the recent past is that they are jealous about guarding that independence and in ensuring that the progress that they have made in the last nine years is not eroded in any manner.
Karan Thapar: So, does this mean they will check Pakistani influence themselves?
Nirupama Rao: I believe the international community has to stay committed in Afghanistan for some more time. They are dealing with the war against terror there. That was has to be fought; it has to be won. So I believe that there is a commitment that the international community has to reinforce.
Karan Thapar: I'll tell you why I asked this question. Karzai famously referred to Pakistan as a conjoined twin. Pakistan protects, promotes the Afghan Taliban and is today involved in try to facilitate talks between the Haqqani and Hikmatiyar group and the Karzai government. How does the Indian government view the possibility of Haqqani and Hikmatiyar playing a role in a future Afghan government?
Nirupama Rao: I think here again you are jumping to conclusions before things have happened. The red lines drawn at the London conference on Afghanistan earlier this year are the red lines that the Afghanistan government intends to adhere to and abide by. This has been said to us in a number of occasions. Now the fact is that you have groups within the Afghan Taliban which are obviously close to Pakistan, that promote terrorism, that espouse radical ideologies and I don't believe that given the approach of the Afghan government to adhering by those red lines that this reality or this possible conclusion that you referred to is really going to come about.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the Afghan government has itself been holding, or be it surreptitiously but not by any means secretly, talks with Haqqani group and Hikmatiyar group representatives
Nirupama Rao: Well, I put it this way. I think the situation in Afghanistan, given the operation of so many groups there is complex. But let me say once again that this is a fiercely independent country you are dealing with and the leadership of this fiercely independent country is not going to, I believe, compromise its basic interest in ensuring a strong, stable and united Afghanistan which is not going to be bedeviled by the threat of terrorism.
Karan Thapar: Now, as you know foreign secretary, Pakistan has long wanted what it calls strategic depth in Afghanistan. Many people believe that America today, perhaps out of a certain sense of desperation, is coming close to accepting Pakistan's primacy in Afghanistan. And if that happens, that would be granting strategic depth. If that strategic depth is granted, what would it mean for India? Help us understand what would it mean.
Nirupama Rao: First of all let me tell you this strategic depth is a theory espoused by anybody in the international community. There may be some analysts in Pakistan, some people in Pakistan --
Karan Thapar: --General Kayani talks about it.
Nirupama Rao: Well, they may talk about it but I am talking about the reality. You are talking about an independent country, you are talking about a leadership in Afghanistan that is committed to fighting terrorism; that is committed to maintain its independence. And I think, that leadership needs to be helped in that regard.
Karan Thapar: You don't believe that this talk of conjoined twinship which was Karzai's phrase, and at the same time he referred to India as a friend and not a twin, suggests that there is in fact a movement taking place that India is wary of. You won't share that?
Nirupama Rao: I will be very alert to what happens in Afghanistan. It is a neighbour, we have interest there, and we have interest for a very long time that predates the present situation. So, let me say that being friends with Afghanistan and this is a very deep friendship that cemented by bonds between people and not just governments. And we are confident about our profile in Afghanistan and the fact that our interests will be well recognised by the international community and this is increasingly evident from the dialogue that we have had with our key partners.
Karan Thapar: How do you view the stepped up relationship between America and Pakistan? If you have concerns, have you shared them with Washington? What response have you got?
Nirupama Rao: Well, we have shared our concerns with Washington. We have said all along that Pakistan cannot be given a blank cheque on such matters and any assistance that is extended to Pakistan, ostensibly for counter-terrorism or counter-insurgency operations, could very well be used against India as the history of last 60 years go.
Karan Thapar: And what did Washington say?
Nirupama Rao: Washington is very attentive to our concerns and we have continued our dialogue on this issue. We are engaged in a constant communication with the United States on these issues and I believe that the United States is increasingly aware and alert and attentive to these concerns--
Karan Thapar: --except that arming Pakistan continues as a policy.
Nirupama Rao: Well, there is a situation now in Afghanistan and there is the involvement of the United States in that situation and Pakistan is involved in that entire operation. So there is a certain context now in which all this placed. But nonetheless, our concerns have been articulated very clearly to America.
Karan Thapar: Sounds as if we will have to grit our teeth about things that we don't like.
Foreign Secretary let's come to China. China is India's biggest trading partner and the two countries hope to hit the $ 60 billion target this year. On the other hand, China supports Pakistan over Kashmir. It bends laws to sell nuclear plants to Islamabad whilst it questions India's sovereignty over Arunachal Pradesh and seems to go out of the way to check our emergence as an emerging power. How do you as foreign secretary view China?
Nirupama Rao: It is a complex relationship. There is no doubt about it. But having said that, and especially since we have celebrated the 60th anniversary of our diplomatic relations this year, let me say the approach as we more forward is to ensure, and this is the point of view which is shared by Chinese government, ensure mutual sensitivity to each other's core concerns, as well as seek broader convergence on many global issues. So this is the trajectory along which the relationship is developing.
Karan Thapar: Are they really sensitive to India's concerns: particularly Kashmir, particularly the arming of Pakistan, particularly the supply of nuclear material to Pakistan? Are they--
Nirupama Rao: That's exactly the context I referred to when I spoke of the complexity in relationship. And what is dialogue, intelligently transacted dialogue enable you to do when you seek more responsiveness from the other side about your concerns. This is exactly because we are able to place those issues in context and seek the other side's focus on these issues and greater responsiveness and sensitivity to these issues.
Karan Thapar: The former national security advisor Brijesh Mishra has gone on record to say that he fears that Islamabad and Beijing may be joining forces. And it that happens, India will end up with hostile neighbours both in the north and the west. To what extent do you share that concern?
Nirupama Rao: Well, I knew that there is a lot of analyses on a lot of scenarios that could be applied to the India-China relationship. But here in officialdom, we deal with realities and the reality of the situation is that the border between India and China has been peaceful for the last few decades, and the efforts from both sides is to ensure that the mechanisms that we have put in place for confidence building and maintenance of peace and tranquility work well. And there is constant communication between the two.
Karan Thapar: So are you saying that the fear or the --
Nirupama Rao: --but let me add that this doesn't mean that we are not vigilant about or alert to situations where our security could be affected.
Karan Thapar: So you are aware of the possibility of what, in a loose language, I might call a ganging up between Islamabad and Beijing. You don't turn a blind eye to it.
Nirupama Rao: Well, we take all these factors into account.
Karan Thapar: China today, in fact just 10 days ago, became the world's second largest economy. Does India have any apprehensions or concerns about China's emergence as possibly the second most powerful country in the world
Nirupama Rao: Well, you and I belong to a generation that has been witness to the rise of China, the growth in its economic power, it power projection capabilities, we have been witness to all that. And at the same time, the world is increasingly alert to the rise of India, the potential of India and the rapid economic growth of India --
Karan Thapar: --but the gap between the two is growing not narrowing.
Nirupama Rao: I believe what that point to Karan is the fact that this relationship, the relationship between India and China is going to be the story of the 21st century.
Karan Thapar: The story that will be in India's interest or the story that will make India weary and perhaps, a little apprehensive.
Nirupama Rao: Well, a story based on dialogue, as I said, which we intend to conduct intelligently and which we intend to conduct with confidence so that our concerns are protected.
Karan Thapar: Is China dialoguing with India openly, or are they doing it behind screens?
Nirupama Rao: I believe that is a multi-sectoral dialogue with China on the bilateral front. And if we look at the global multilateral front, there are increasing areas of convergence, I referred to that. And so this is really, as I said, the trajectory along which we hope the dialogue develops.
Karan Thapar: Foreign Secretary, a pleasure talking to you.
Nirupama Rao: Thank you so much.
